Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

[daveklepper]

I rode the Ulster andd Delaware from Kingston to Fleishmans and back in 1946.   At that time it was already owned by the New York Central and the ten-wheelers all had New York Central on their tenders.  I was not aware that there was every any through service to Weehawken when the railroad was independent.  I had to change trains in Kingston in both directions when I rode.   I saw one freight, and, like the passenger trains, was also pulled by a 4-6-0.

 

I made one mistake.  I think the handover between the TH&B and the NYC was at Niagra Falls or Suspension Bridge, and not at Buffalo.  The TH&B either had its own line or trackage rights into Buffalo, but the passenger trains between Buffalo and Niagra Falls were NYV, if I am correct.

 

I'll try, when I have time, to get the name of the junction between the NYO&W and the West Shore.  YOu can look it up in the meantime.

 

Meanwhile, who can name a passenger railroad that did operate sleeping car service that never owned a Pacific 4-6-2?

[henry6]

daveklepper

I thought I got three.   With the through service via Brewster, the New York and New England was not part of the New Haven.   When it was taken over, the service via Brewster was dropped and rerouted to New Haven.   Pasenger service from Willimantic to Brewster was restored, I believe, when the Pouhkeepsie Bridge was opened a Maybrook - Wilimantic service established but it didn't last very long.   Did you include the West Shore as one of the three?  Or did you mean the Putnam?   YOu could say there are four:  East -to-West:  Harlem, Putnam, Hudson, and West Shore.    So railroads are NYO&W, D&H and RUtland, and NY&NE.   I did not include the New Haven.  I simply mentioned that through service (which at one time did include dining and parlor cars, possibly not making it to the lightweight era) as something interesting.   I now recall that when I rode it, and I rode it simply to allow my Boston area host to pick me up a few blocks from his home at the Newton station, the equipment was the ex-Roger Williams, but now I remember I had to change across the platform at New Haven, and the Budd equipment did not originate in GCT.   YOu could also, as I mentioned, add the TH&B.    Oh yes, there was the interesting move of the through sleeper to Lake Placid.   Started out from GCT on the NYC, Albany or Troy to the north on the D&H, but then on the branch to Lake Placid it was back on the New York Central!

 

Dave, I've reread and therefore have  reconsidered your answers as complete.  I was looking for the Ulster and Delaware Railroad, aka the Catskill Mt. Div., from Kingston to Oneonta, NY as a through service over the West Shore.  But I really got more hung up on the Rutland.  You said Rutland at Troy and I was hung up on the Rutland at Chatham where the milk trains from Bennington, VT achieved Harlem tracks.  I was also hung up on Albany/Troy as the northern end.  You mentioned the TH&B but there was also the NY and Ottawa via Tupper Lake from Utica which someone could have injected, too.  The problem with history is the more you dig the more there is to be dug!

[henry6]

Still not within the 1 1/2 missing parts.

[wanswheel]

Lebanon Springs Railroad at Chatham?

Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut Railroad at Millerton?

http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/harlemrr.Html

[henry6]

Actually you got 2 and 1/2.  If I say more I will have to answer the question.  Although the last full "1" has not been mentioned at all.

[daveklepper]

I thought I got three.   With the through service via Brewster, the New York and New England was not part of the New Haven.   When it was taken over, the service via Brewster was dropped and rerouted to New Haven.   Pasenger service from Willimantic to Brewster was restored, I believe, when the Pouhkeepsie Bridge was opened a Maybrook - Wilimantic service established but it didn't last very long.   Did you include the West Shore as one of the three?  Or did you mean the Putnam?   YOu could say there are four:  East -to-West:  Harlem, Putnam, Hudson, and West Shore.    So railroads are NYO&W, D&H and RUtland, and NY&NE.   I did not include the New Haven.  I simply mentioned that through service (which at one time did include dining and parlor cars, possibly not making it to the lightweight era) as something interesting.   I now recall that when I rode it, and I rode it simply to allow my Boston area host to pick me up a few blocks from his home at the Newton station, the equipment was the ex-Roger Williams, but now I remember I had to change across the platform at New Haven, and the Budd equipment did not originate in GCT.   YOu could also, as I mentioned, add the TH&B.    Oh yes, there was the interesting move of the through sleeper to Lake Placid.   Started out from GCT on the NYC, Albany or Troy to the north on the D&H, but then on the branch to Lake Placid it was back on the New York Central!

[daveklepper]

I thought I got three.   With the through service via Brewster, the New York and New England was not part of the New Haven.   When it was taken over, the service via Brewster was dropped and rerouted to New Haven.   Pasenger service from Willimantic to Brewster was restored, I believe, when the Pouhkeepsie Bridge was opened a Maybrook - Wilimantic service established but it didn't last very long.   Did you include the West Shore as one of the three?  Or did you mean the Putnam?   YOu could say there are four:  East -to-West:  Harlem, Putnam, Hudson, and West Shore.    So railroads are NYO&W, D&H and RUtland, and NY&NE.   I did not include the New Haven.  I simply mentioned that through service (which at one time did include dining and parlor cars, possibly not making it to the lightweight era) as something interesting.   I now recall that when I rode it, and I rode it simply to allow my Boston area host to pick me up a few blocks from his home at the Newton station, the equipment was the ex-Roger Williams, but now I remember I had to change across the platform at New Haven, and the Budd equipment did not originate in GCT.   YOu could also, as I mentioned, add the TH&B.    Oh yes, there was the interesting move of the through sleeper to Lake Placid.   Started out from GCT on the NYC, Albany or Troy to the north on the D&H, but then on the branch to Lake Placid it was back on the New York Central!

[henry6]

Deggesty

The New Haven was a tenant of the Harlem from MO (Mott Haven Jct.) (5.4 miles above Grand Central) to the Harlem’s station.

It has long been my understanding that the "Inland Route" was through Springfield and New Haven. Through service existed on this line as early as 1868, and was stopped before June of 1955. Amtrak revived the service, spottily, but no longer has a through train (In 1997, we rode from Boston to New York over this route). When Amtrak first revived the service, someone who was ignorant of competivive fares thought that fare should be higher than that for the Shore Line because the route was about four miles longer.

When were there through trains through Chatham? There is no representation in the June 1868, June 1893, June 1916, or June 1930 Guides.

Johnny

But if it were a through train to Boston via Chatham it would have been NYC (as would the Harlem train through Chatham to Pittsfield and Adams, MA) and not pertinent to the question.  And I waived New Haven off because it is outside the Hudson/Harlem valleys.  There are still two parts of the answer left.

[Deggesty]

The New Haven was a tenant of the Harlem from MO (Mott Haven Jct.) (5.4 miles above Grand Central) to the Harlem’s station.

It has long been my understanding that the "Inland Route" was through Springfield and New Haven. Through service existed on this line as early as 1868, and was stopped before June of 1955. Amtrak revived the service, spottily, but no longer has a through train (In 1997, we rode from Boston to New York over this route). When Amtrak first revived the service, someone who was ignorant of competivive fares thought that fare should be higher than that for the Shore Line because the route was about four miles longer.

When were there through trains through Chatham? There is no representation in the June 1868, June 1893, June 1916, or June 1930 Guides.

Johnny

[henry6]

daveklepper

West Shore....................................New York Ontario and Western as Tenant.  But I forget the name of the junction, just know it is north of Haverstraw.

 Hudson..........................................both Albany and Troy as junctions with the Delaware and Hudson, and Troy as junction with the Rutland.   The Laurentian, Montreal Limited were D&H trains, the Green Mountain, the Rutland

 Hudson..........................................Buffalo as junction with Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo

Harlem...........................................for a very short time, until the New Haven takeover....of the New York and New England RR route through Wilamantic to Boston.   Originally this connected with the Putnam line, also a NYC route from the NY Metropolitan area, except that the Manhattan terminal was the 155th Street and Eighth Avenue terminal of the Ninth Avenue Elevatged, and the Putnam line crossed the drawbridge that was later used by the 9th Avenue El's connection to the Jerome Avenue elevated subway line (now No, 4) in the Yankee Stadium vacinity.   Both running via the Harlem and running via the Putnam, the junction was in Brewster, I think.

 But then much later there was a through service "via the indland gateway" between Boston and Grand Central Terminal using the NYC's B&A between Boston and Springfield, the NYNH&H from Springfiled south to the usual Woodlawn junction and the Harlem line into NY.   Possibly Amtrak runs a train via this route today, I rode one once about 20 year ago.   The equipment was the ex-Roger Williams Budd NH equipment.

I want to give it to you, Dave, but can't.  And not just because I am  being parochial in thought by limiting the question to the Hudson/Harlem Valley either.  The TH&B train, I believe was a NYC train and not a TH&B train NY to Toronto, so I don't count that.  The "inland route" would have been all NYC via Chatham off the B&A line; a CNE jct at Millerton was not effective because I believe it was north bound off the CNE to the Harlem Line and the I don't believe the :PUT had any direct trains to GCT..   But, yes, the O&W was the tenant on the West Shore Weehawken to Cornwall.  As a hint the D&H connections at Troy and Albany are correct, too.  There are two more parts to this Hudson/Harlem question to make it whole. 

[daveklepper]

West Shore....................................New York Ontario and Western as Tenant.  But I forget the name of the junction, just know it is north of Haverstraw.

 Hudson..........................................both Albany and Troy as junctions with the Delaware and Hudson, and Troy as junction with the Rutland.   The Laurentian, Montreal Limited were D&H trains, the Green Mountain, the Rutland

 Hudson..........................................Buffalo as junction with Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo

Harlem...........................................for a very short time, until the New Haven takeover....of the New York and New England RR route through Wilamantic to Boston.   Originally this connected with the Putnam line, also a NYC route from the NY Metropolitan area, except that the Manhattan terminal was the 155th Street and Eighth Avenue terminal of the Ninth Avenue Elevatged, and the Putnam line crossed the drawbridge that was later used by the 9th Avenue El's connection to the Jerome Avenue elevated subway line (now No, 4) in the Yankee Stadium vacinity.   Both running via the Harlem and running via the Putnam, the junction was in Brewster, I think.

 But then much later there was a through service "via the indland gateway" between Boston and Grand Central Terminal using the NYC's B&A between Boston and Springfield, the NYNH&H from Springfiled south to the usual Woodlawn junction and the Harlem line into NY.   Possibly Amtrak runs a train via this route today, I rode one once about 20 year ago.   The equipment was the ex-Roger Williams Budd NH equipment.

[henry6]

Just to keep things moving late on a Saturday night (I just heard from the other room that it is "live") lets put this one out since we are on the New York Central tracks in the Hudson and Harlem valleys lets stay with the Commadore's interests.  All three NYC lines out of the Metropolitan area either hauled the trains of another railroad to the junction and one of the three actually had a tenant.  What were the three connections whose trains shined the Commadore's rails and who was the tenant? Oh, the New York, New Haven and Hartford is not one of them.

[Deggesty]

Yes, Henry is right. As he says, the Harlem railroad eventually reached Chatham, going through White Plains, Dover Plains, and Wassaic (the current end of the MTA's Harlem line). Why go east from Boston and change at Chatham when you can go directly south along the Hudson (unless you are hunting for new route mileage)?

I yield.

Johnny

 

 

[wanswheel]

Actually in Lincoln's time it was simply the Hudson River Railroad. South of the 60th St. yard the tracks came down 11th Ave. to 33rd St., curved southeast to 10th Ave. at 30th St. Except for local trains to Spuyten Duyvil, all passenger trains were moved to Grand Central in 1871. Lincoln's station became the milk depot.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR30thStreet.gif

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR1.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR4.jpg

Lincoln's Inauguration

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3g00000/3g04000/3g04500/3g04583v.jpg

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ppmsca/07600/07636v.jpg

Lincoln's Car

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ppmsca/08200/08257v.jpg

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3g00000/3g01000/3g01800/3g01832v.jpg

Gosh who's up? Johnny did the heavy lifting. Henry came closer to the right answer.

[henry6]

Since the NY and Harlem taversed the Harlem Valley to Chatham, NY thence west to Troy, the railroad with stops at Rhinecliffe, Poughkeepsie, etc, was the New York and Hudson River Railroad.  But the Harlem did come into Manhatten as did the New Haven a few years ahead of the NY&HR RR.

[Deggesty]

If I had read your last post carefully, I would have seen that it was the Harlem Railroad's station, just below City Hall, that brought Abe Lincoln in from the north.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

Yes indeed, but my question is about Lincoln's arrival on a railroad in the state of New York, and not about either of his arrivals in Philadelphia: the first from Trenton as scheduled, and returning to Philadelphia from Harrisburg in secrecy instead of going directly to Baltimore as planned. I referred to Barack Obama because his ride today had inspired the question, and also to see if anyone would point out that 30th Street Station in Philadelphia wasn't built yet.

Mike

[Deggesty]

Thursday morning, I named the Trenton and Philadelphia (1851 Guide), which had been renamed the Philadelphia and Trenton by 1868.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

Johnny, we continue to wait for someone to name the railroad that brought Lincoln to the 30th Street Station in New York on February 19, 1861.

[Deggesty]

Mike, what's the status on this quiz?

Johnny

[wanswheel]

Deggesty

I forgot that he came by way of New York.

That's true, and for 70 years there was a depot on West 30th Street.

Excerpt from A Train Ride For Mr. Lincoln by Marc B. Grayson

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22A+Train+Ride+For+Mr.+Lincoln+by+Marc+B.+Grayson%22&btnG=Search

At Troy, the President's party was transferred to a new train of the _____ _____ Railroad. The car provided for the President was described as: "one of the handsomest, perhaps, ever run in this country. The decorations are blue, with silver stars, and the rich sofas, carpeting and luxurious chairs give to the car the appearance of an elegantly furnished salon." Lincoln spoke briefly at Hudson, Rhinebeck, Poughkeepsie, Fishkill, and Peekskill. At 3 P.M., the special train arrived at the new 30th Street depot in New York, the nation's largest city with a population exceeding eight hundred thousand.

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

President-elect James Buchanan rode the P&C from Lancaster to Columbia in 1857, same year it was reorganized into PRR Philadelphia Division.  The 30th Street Station that President-elect Lincoln arrived at was elsewhere and was demolished in 1931.

I forgot that he came by way of New York. If he did not use the Camden and Amboy, which came down the east bank of the Delaware, he rode the Trenton and Philadelphia (1851 American Railway Guide, reprinted by Kalmbach in 1945).

The reprinted Guide has this caveat: "We must warn against writing to the advertisers herein as a satisfactory reply cannot be expected. For this please accept our most humble apologies." Often, the railroads made no mention of the necessity of using a ferry to reach their trains. There is a list of the various piers and ferry slips and stations used by the railroads that served New York CIty.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

President-elect James Buchanan rode the P&C from Lancaster to Columbia in 1857, same year it was reorganized into PRR Philadelphia Division.  The 30th Street Station that President-elect Lincoln arrived at was elsewhere and was demolished in 1931.

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

The old thread is full of junk and treasure.

Barack Obama will board a train at 30th Street Station.  Abraham Lincoln arrived at 30th Street Station on what railroad?

Mike

I'll say the Philadelphia and Columbia RR.

Johnny

[KCSfan]

You guys aren't going to believe this but I just attempted to post a message to this and the old Classic Trains Questions and got another one of those G-- D--n Post Pending Moderation messages on both threads.

Mark

[KCSfan]

TZ,The KCS actually had two subsidiaries that operated the Texas parts of its lines. The Texarkana & Ft Smith built the 79 miles  between Port Arthur and the TX/LA state line at the Sabine River. It became a part of the KCS but was operated separately in accordance with Texas state law until 1933 when the ICC used its authority to override the Texas law. The state of Texas appealed the ICC ruling to the Supreme Court which decided in favor of the ICC in 1934. This was the case that ended the requirement that railroads operating in Texas had to be headquartered in the state. The T&FtS was then leased by the KCS and later was dissolved as a corporation and fully absorbed into the KCS system.The Louisiana Arkansas & Texas operated 181 miles in Texas from McKinney near Dallas to the Louisiana state line. This was originally an MKT line that was purchased in 1923 by the Louisiana Railway & Navigation Co. of Texas. In 1930 the LR&N of Texas was renamed the Louisiana Arkansas & Texas and for a while was headquartered in Greenville, TX. In 1939 the LA&T was merged into the parent Louisiana & Arkansas which in turn was acquired by the KCS. The combined roads operated as the KCS/L&A Lines until the early 1960’s and by 1966 the L&A had been completely dropped from its name. However the L&A existed as a legal entity until 1992 when it was dissolved as a corporation. I always thought Colorado & Southern trackage ended at the NM/TX state line and thought it was FW&D from there south into Texas. Your reply got me to do some further research and to my surprise I found that the FW&D was indeed a subsidiary of the C&S. I never fail to learn something new and interesting from these questions.Mark  

[wanswheel]

The old thread is full of junk and treasure.

Barack Obama will board a train at 30th Street Station.  Abraham Lincoln arrived at 30th Street Station on what railroad?

Mike

[Texas Zepher]

KCSfan

No cigar for you yet. The earliest gas electric wreck happened many years prior to 1940.

I figured that.  That is just the ONLY wreck of a rdc that I know of.  

Incidentally I also posted this question to the old thread without any problem whatsoever. Since others are used to viewing that one, if it continues to work OK, we might want to discontinue this new one.

Well that thread had other clutter in it too.  But now that we have cluttered this new one up with junk like this I suppose it doesn't matter.  We now have two threads with junk in them.

[KCSfan]

Wanswheel wins. See my reply on the other Class Railroad Questions thread.

Mark

[wanswheel]

Missouri & North Arkansas motor car and KCS train crashed at Tipton Ford in 1914.

http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/railway/trainord.htm#Tipt

I also posted this answer at the old thread using the reliably functional Quick Reply.