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Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, December 5, 2023 8:27 PM

They weren't NYS&W buses -- I think, and Wayne can check this, that they were Public Service.

The Susquehanna was run by the Erie when Kidde got the Transfer running, and the Northern Branch ran right by North Bergen, so it was a 'natural' for both operations to take advantage of the connection.  I have seen a 1959 Northern Branch schedule that shows the period that the buses ran into the Port Authority terminal (so indicated in the timetable as a 'stop') and interestingly one of the six trains did not stop there.

Why the Transfer wasn't a big thing after the Erie quit Pavonia is another matter.  Getting into Hoboken was a grand rigmarole of backing and hitching that added a considerable time to the trip, which might have made the 'shortcut' to midtown more attractive... BUT...

even in the late Fifties the grand rivalry between the Public Service and Red and Tan buses was on, which had something like 20-minute headways EACH along much of the Northern Branch route and went straight into the Port Authority terminal without a change.  Stilwells towed by RS2s and 3s wasn't much competition for that.

But what are the other two stations with bus connections to name trains?

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 7:26 AM

NYS&W did use Public Service buses, but they were used for NYS&W (and Erie) passengers, using NYS&W tickets.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 8:04 AM

I remembered the tickets, not the label on the sides of the buses.  They may also have haf a different colior scheme than most PSofNJ buses, a color scheme like that of the Suzie-Q's ACF self-propelled cars.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 10:57 AM

My point was that NYS&W didn't own the buses and didn't employ the drivers.  The ticketing reflected the fact that no additional pickup stops were made and the service was an extension of rail fare.

The other two stations did not provide service 'free to ticketholders'; they charged the highly interesting price of 91 cents -- guess why -- and at least in the late Fifties made a point of noting in the timetables that checked baggage would NOT be handled on the motorcoaches.  Points to someone who knows where any checked baggage would go for pickup later...

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 11:11 AM

Are these two stations in NY,

or are they relocated transfer points in NJ?

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 11:30 AM

As far as I recollect, the only NYCity stations werefirst vthe Dixiw Hotel  Bus Terminal and then the Port Authority Bus Terminal, a move sometime afgter WWII.

The three NJ points would be  Erie Terminal, with baggage  service for trains  that terminated there (not all SuzieQ trains went that far, oarticularly the self-propelled cars that reversed at the main-line trasnsfwe point), and the transfer point on thast main line west of the lincoln Tunnel, and the third on the Erie Northern Branch.  Never knew  the name of the last, and forgot the name of the  second.  RC?

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 12:06 PM

The mainline transfer point was just Susquehanna Transfer.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 7:52 PM

One of the points was Susquehanna Transfer.  The others were in New Jersey, and not very far from each other.  

As a hint, the bus service from the two ceased the same year as Erie Northern Branch trains could have used Susquehanna Transfer.  (I am not sure how long the Northern Branch trains did; the latest schedule I can find easily is from 1959, and does not show that all the six daily trains stopped there even then.)

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 7, 2023 12:50 AM

In what actual geographical location was Susquahanna Transfer located?

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, December 7, 2023 6:50 AM

North Bergen NJ.  Site is where I-495 crosses the Susquehanna.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 7, 2023 8:19 AM

I recall that many of the self-propelled ACF cars that ran to and from downtown Patterson did not use Erie Terminal but ised Susquuahanna  Transfer as an end-point.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, December 7, 2023 12:35 PM

daveklepper
I recall that many of the self-propelled ACF cars that ran to and from downtown Paterson did not use Erie Terminal but ised Susquehanna  Transfer as an end-point.

Certainly made better sense from an equipment-utilization standpoint, and I suspect additional trips for a given capacity was part of enabling the increase in ridership that Kidde saw so quickly after the arrangement was imolemented.

I have already explained what I think was the reason the Northern Branch trains, even with their ridiculous post-'58 terminal access, didn't make more use of the bus transfer in the same way.

I wasn't there at the time, but I think the construction of the Susquehanna Transfer operation was timed to open when the 'express highway' extending Route 3 across to the helix and the Lincoln Tunnel opened.  At that point about 600 buses per day were going through the tunnel!

I wonder whether the exclusive bus lane, which was initiated at the end of 1970, would have proven enough of an 'enhancement' to bus service from Susquehanna Transfer in the mornings to make it more attractive.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, December 10, 2023 10:11 AM

I was the first to come up with the SusyQ, but it is  possible you really meant the Erie.  And RC  had  details I lacked.  I leave vto both of yoy, and I think I can have a question if requested.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, December 10, 2023 12:56 PM

The railroad in question was not the Susquehanna, c although I was mistaken (actually misguided by a citation in Wikipedia -- not for the first time -- about the name train-operating road.

The two other stations definitely had name train service met by dedicated coaches, one of which (with names of great antiquity, I believe) was interesting for having a bus connection in one direction but not the other in at least one timetable.

I find it almost incomprehensible that rcdrye hasn't jumped on this.

Or on my other active question, which yes, is related...

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, December 11, 2023 7:10 PM

The Atlantic and Pacific Expresses dated back to 1885.  The bus connections started after WWII, and moved with the Erie to DL&W's Hoboken Terminal.  Based on where they were going in New York, the Lincoln Tunnel makes the most sense.  The bus destinations are listed with the other question.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, December 12, 2023 3:49 PM

The answer to the other question was the Erie.  Not this one.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, December 13, 2023 9:23 AM

Give you another hint: the length of time the bus service was offered for the name train in question was probably less than half a decade.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 14, 2023 4:24 AM

I certain was not aware of it, but did the DL&W ever offer bus coinnectioins for vthe Pheobe Snow?

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, December 14, 2023 5:47 PM

Dave got to it before I could...

ERIE TABLE1 19610625 - Phoebe Snow (train) - Wikipedia

The locations are the same as those served by the Erie's buses before the E-L merger, and were probably the same buses.

 

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, December 14, 2023 8:31 PM

It appears to me that the "DL&W" did not offer motor-coach connection even after the Erie moved to Hoboken.  The 1960 schedule I saw does not mention it.

However, by the Erie-Lackawanna schedule of 1962, the Phoebe Snow has its own bus entry, with the note that it is a 'trainside connection'.

Gone by April of 1966.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, December 15, 2023 6:03 AM

Considering that the Erie/E-L's route between the New York area and Chicago was long, slow, and missed major metropolitan areas, they competed fairly well, not dropping the final train until 1970.  The Phoebe Snow's post-merger life was fairly short.  It was really more of an Erie train than a DL&W train.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, December 15, 2023 10:09 AM

rcdrye

Considering that the Erie/E-L's route between the New York area and Chicago was long, slow, and missed major metropolitan areas, they competed fairly well, not dropping the final train until 1970.  The Phoebe Snow's post-merger life was fairly short.  It was really more of an Erie train than a DL&W train.

 
There were two different "Phoebe Snow's".  The better known was the original Lackawanna train between Hoboken and Buffalo.  The second was the renamed "Erie Limited".
     George W Hilton opined in an article in TRAINS that the fact that Erie missed most of the major traffic sources except for Youngstown was a major reason why Erie's passenger service held up as well as it did.  It served a lot of smaller cities and towns that buses and airlines didn't serve.
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, December 16, 2023 10:04 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
...the fact that Erie missed most of the major traffic sources except for Youngstown was a major reason why Erie's passenger service held up as well as it did.

One of the discussions I saw mentioned a probable reason for the additional connecting bus service.  Akron was a source of considerable business traffic that was not 'conveniently' served by the major Chicago-New York railroads, but that had good reason to request convenient amenities, and also had the money to patronize them.

"Smaller" cities may have considerable high-end travel demand...

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, December 16, 2023 11:59 AM

1.   Should I ask the next question?

2.  Did the new Pheobe Snow operate via Scranton or Port Jervis?

3.  I rode the Lake Cities before the Hoboken-Youngstown sleeper was drpped.  It ran via  Scranton.  Coach-only west of Youngstown.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, December 16, 2023 3:41 PM

Phoebe Snow (E-L version) ran via Scranton.  Dave came up with the Lackawanna, even though the answer was Erie-Lackawanna.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, December 17, 2023 7:42 AM

A Class-I Railroad built a standard-gauge line, later converted it to narrow-gauge, and never converted it back to standard gauge.

Railroad?  Line end-points? Why standard?  Why converted to narrow and never back?  What type of freight kept the line operational in the final years of its operation?  Describe with as much information as you can the locomotives used on this line in its final years.  Where was freight transferred between standard and narrow?

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, December 17, 2023 11:57 AM

D&RGW built its line from Durango CO to Farmington NH as standard gauge in 1905, mostly for the same mining and ranching traffic carried by the rest of the San Juan line.  Apparently the thought was that the San Juan extension from Antonito could be converted to standard gauge with only minor realignment. Once they got tired of transshipping in Durango (around 1923), the line was converted to narrow gauge just in time for an oil boom.  Enough equipment,pipe, and oil traffic remained to keep the branch (and, really, the entire San Juan extension) alive until 1968.  I believe the line had heavy enough rail to use any of the D&RGW's narrow-gauge steam locomotives.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, December 18, 2023 4:52 AM

By all means ask the next questionm, but:

The line was  built to standard gauge because the AT&SF had planned a branch to Farmington.  It was converted to narrow after it was obvious  the AT&SF would not be building their branch.

Any of the four types narrow-gauge 2-8-2s could be used, but the type frequent on the branch was the type rebuilt from standard-gauge 2-8-0s.

The post-WWII narrow-gauge traffic was interchanged with standard-gauge at Alamosa, despite a third rail for standard gauge extending to Antonito. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, December 21, 2023 6:11 AM

Despite operating on a track layout poorly suited for single-ended cars, the North Shore Line had several brass-railed parlor-observations.  They were assigned to trains like the Badger Limited and Eastern Limited, advertising direct connections with New York Central trains, including the 20th Century Limited.  Northbound trips for trains making these connections were two miles longer than southbound trips.  Explain the reason.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, December 21, 2023 10:04 AM

Northbound trips started at 63rd & Dorchester while southbound trains terminated at Roosevelt Rd.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul

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