ZephyrOverland In 1946, a section of the Sunshine Special became a through Texas-New York train via PRR, running through St. Louis instead of beginning or ending there. This was not a first. Name the train, railroad(s), and the endpoints of another train that operated THROUGH St. Louis instead of beginning or ending there, and predated the New York Sunshine Special service.Bonus question - Because of the establishment of the above train in question, another railroad began a similar service but it shared only one endpoint with the other train (the other endpoint for this train was near the endpoint of the above train). This other train did not run through St. Louis, but it did have through cars to and from St. Louis. Name this train, the railroad(s) and endpoints.
In 1946, a section of the Sunshine Special became a through Texas-New York train via PRR, running through St. Louis instead of beginning or ending there. This was not a first. Name the train, railroad(s), and the endpoints of another train that operated THROUGH St. Louis instead of beginning or ending there, and predated the New York Sunshine Special service.
Bonus question - Because of the establishment of the above train in question, another railroad began a similar service but it shared only one endpoint with the other train (the other endpoint for this train was near the endpoint of the above train). This other train did not run through St. Louis, but it did have through cars to and from St. Louis. Name this train, the railroad(s) and endpoints.
Mark - you actually tripped over the answer in terms of the railroads involved, but you were two generations ahead.
The answer to the above question is:
Havana Limited - Chicago-Mobile - Chicago & Alton/Mobile & Ohio
The answer to the bonus question is:
Cuban Special - Chicago/St. Louis-New Orleans - Illinois Central
Both trains existed around 1906. When I first came across these names I was wondering - "Why were these trains named this way?" I knew the IC exploited their accessibility to destinations beyond New Orleans with the naming of the Panama Limited in 1911, but the Havana Limited began in January 1906. From some historical investigation I think I can piece together a possible scenario.
1) The concept of winter seasonal train service was beginning to take hold from New York to Florida and from Chicago and New Orleans west (the California Limited, Sunset Limited and the Golden State Limited were originally winter season trains).
2) Between 1906 and 1909, Cuba was occupied by US forces after they routed the Cuban dictator then in power.
3) Sensing a commercial freight and passenger travel opportunity to a now more secure location (and seeing what Flagler was doing in Florida in developing the Key West Extension), the above mentioned railroads started priming the travel pump by establishing these trains and advertising the delights of vacationing in Cuba, providing an alternative to west coast travel for midwesterners. One could take the Havana Limited and a connecting ship and be in Havana in 60 hours, as opposed a longer trip going to the west coast.
I don't think this bet paid off well. After running as a de-luxe Pullman winter seasonal train for the 1905-06 and 1906-07 seasons, the Havana Limited became a daily coach and Pullman St. Louis- Mobile operation sometime in 1907 and lasting until 1908. The de luxe all-Pullman Cuban Special didn't make it past the winter season of 1906-1907.
Mark - since you were the closest to the answer, why don't you ask the next question?
Could it have been through service to Kansas City from Chicago via St. Louis? Seems unlikely, but might be possible.
Iron Mountain to Texarkana?
http://www.raremaps.com/maps/medium/19200.jpg
We can rule out the Cotton Belt because it did run to Texas. The GM&O at one time ran a through sleeper between Mobile and Chicago via St. Louis. It believe it ran in the consist of the Gulf Coast Rebel and in Alton trains between StL and Chicago but that was a single car not a train so I guess that is not the answer you're looking for. I'm at a loss to think of any other service through StL that meets the paramaters of your question and the replies that you and others have posted.
Mark
daveklepperOK, we have eliminated the Frisco and the Missouri Pacific as contenders for runniing a through train over the Chicago and Alton from St. Louis to Chicago, so that leaves us with the Missouri Kansas Texas, the Katy. I think their crack train was simply called the Katy Flyer, but my memory isn't perfect. They may have called it the Texas Katy Flyer or something similar. And not having access to the Texas and Paciifc, it may have used the Fort Worth and Denver of the Burlington system for part of its southern journey. Dallas, Fort Worth, and San Antonio are all possibilities for a southern temrinal, and it may have even used Sante Fe trackage to reach Houston.
OK, we have eliminated the Frisco and the Missouri Pacific as contenders for runniing a through train over the Chicago and Alton from St. Louis to Chicago, so that leaves us with the Missouri Kansas Texas, the Katy. I think their crack train was simply called the Katy Flyer, but my memory isn't perfect. They may have called it the Texas Katy Flyer or something similar. And not having access to the Texas and Paciifc, it may have used the Fort Worth and Denver of the Burlington system for part of its southern journey. Dallas, Fort Worth, and San Antonio are all possibilities for a southern temrinal, and it may have even used Sante Fe trackage to reach Houston.
The Katy is not the answer either. Its actually a smaller road that didn't go to Texas.
I'll give this another day - at that point I'll reveal the answer.
daveklepperDid not at one time the Texas Eagle or Texas Special operate through to Chicago, with southern points Houston (or Dallas or Fort Worth) and San Antonio (or El Paso), using the GM&O or the Alton northeast of St. Louis and MP and T&P from there? I presume the Frisco may have tried to compete with a similar train, but have zero idea what its name was or which railroad was used north of St. Louis
Did not at one time the Texas Eagle or Texas Special operate through to Chicago, with southern points Houston (or Dallas or Fort Worth) and San Antonio (or El Paso), using the GM&O or the Alton northeast of St. Louis and MP and T&P from there? I presume the Frisco may have tried to compete with a similar train, but have zero idea what its name was or which railroad was used north of St. Louis
The Texas Eagle and Texas Special never operated north of St. Louis. They may have carried through sleepers to and from Chicago, but that's about it.
As for the Frisco, in order to extend their marketing reach to Chicago without actually running through trains there, had the C&EI name their newly established Chicago-St. Louis trains the Frisco Express, Frisco Special and Frisco Limited. It can be surmised that the Frisco thought they could funnel Chicago traffic through the C&EI. This occurred when they had control of the Chicago and Eastern Illinois (1902-1913.)
You touched on part of the answer: north of St. Louis the through train operated via the Chicago & Alton.
Your question Zephyr Overland
Al - in - Stockton
passengerfan Name the longest east coast north -south route operated by a passenger train and the trains name. Name the longest west coast north-south route operated by a passenger train and the trains name. and name the longest midwest north south route operated by a passenger train and the trains name? Al - in - Stockton
Name the longest east coast north -south route operated by a passenger train and the trains name. Name the longest west coast north-south route operated by a passenger train and the trains name. and name the longest midwest north south route operated by a passenger train and the trains name?
East Coast - Havana Special - PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC - New York-Key West
West Coast - West Coast - SP - Los Angeles-Portland
Midwest - Twin Star Rocket - RI - Minneapolis-Houston
OK, I think it's time to wrap this question up. The score follows:
Paul - 3 trains - Gopher, Badger & Wolverine
Dave - 1 train - Pony Exp ( an Owl is a bird not a mammal and I believe the Polar Bear was not a US train but ran north from Sault Ste. Marie all in Canada)
Mike - 2 trains - Antelope & Beaver (while equine related the Nancy Hanks, Man 'o War and Thoroughbred are not animal species)
I know of two other trains that nobody mentioned; the NYC/CP Toronto-Buffalo Exp and the NYC/P&LE Pittsburg-Buffalo Exp (or maybe it was the Buffalo-Pittsburg Exp)
Al-in Stockton is our winner with 6 trains - Buffalo Day Exp, Buffalo Ltd, Buffalo Mail, Sea Lion, Dolphin & New England Wolverine. Light up your stogie and ask the next question, Al.
Not a mammel, but of interest, the Clamdigger, the all-tops NY - Boston, later New Haven - Boston Shore Line route NYNH&H local.
Buffalo Day Express (PRR) Washington - Buffalo
Buffalo Limited (NYC) Pittsburgh - Buffalo
Buffalo Mail (DL&W) New York - Buffalo
Sea Lion (PRR/Reading Seashore Lines) New York - Atlantic City
Dolphin (PRR/Reading Seashore Lines) New York - Atlantic City
New England Wolverine (NYC) Boston - Chicago
Antelope (AT&SF) Kansas City to Oklahoma City
Beaver (SP) Oakland to Portland
Man O' War (C of G) Atlanta to Columbus
Nancy Hanks II (C of G) Atlanta to Savannah
Thoroughbred (Monon) Chicago to Louisville
Polar Bear, Algoma and Hudson Bay Winnapeg - Churchill?
Is the Owl a mammal? NY - Boston, NYNH&H
Pony Express, UP, C&NW Chicago - LA
I'll start here:
Gopher/Badger, GN, Minneapolis-Duluth
Wolverine, NYC, Chicago-New York via Detroit
Quite a number of passenger trains were named after different species of birds but relative few had animal names. In the post-WW2 period what US trains had animal (mammals) names, what railroads operated them and what were their routes?
DeggestyI don't remember the years of operation, but the original Nancy Hanks was operated many years ago, also as an Atlanta-Savannah train.
Johnny
KCSfan, you were the first one under the wire by knowing that they were racehorse names, the common thread. Mix yourself a tall mint julep and ask the next question.
wanswheel http://photoswest.org:8080/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?fullRecord+27375+594+759736+11+3 http://photoswest.org:8080/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?fullRecord+27375+594+1972224+15+3 http://www.library.gsu.edu/spcoll/collections/AV/lane/view.asp?action=search&search=Nancy+Hanks
http://photoswest.org:8080/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?fullRecord+27375+594+759736+11+3
http://photoswest.org:8080/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?fullRecord+27375+594+1972224+15+3
http://www.library.gsu.edu/spcoll/collections/AV/lane/view.asp?action=search&search=Nancy+Hanks
We are greatly indebted to Mike for the information, particulary the photographs, that he puts out for us.
WAG. No Dynamic Brakes. (If in the off chance I'm right. I tend to be an irregular here. So please continue without me).
Thx IGN
KCSfanThey were named after famous race horses. The CofG's trains were the Nancy Hanks and the Man 'o War.
Mark, you missed one. The last passenger train operated by the Central of Georgia was the Nancy Hanks II. I don't remember the years of operation, but the original Nancy Hanks was operated many years ago, also as an Atlanta-Savannah train. Incidentally, I was able to ride the Man O' War in the early sixties; by then it had only a news butch to provide refreshment, and made only one round trip a day. The Nancy Hanks II kept a grill-lounge until the end, and in its last months also had a dome car; I had a pleasant trip on it down to Savannah in February of 1971 as I was on my way to add the Lakeland-Naples and Tampa-Venice lines to my travels. I was a bit late getting started in adding route-miles to add such exotica as Haines City-Clewiston to my total.
CSSHEGEWISCH New question: What do some of Central of Georgia's passenger trains and Frisco's E units have in common??
New question: What do some of Central of Georgia's passenger trains and Frisco's E units have in common??
They were named after famous race horses. The CofG's trains were the Nancy Hanks and the Man 'o War.
From I remember from what I read, the D&RG learned that the Santa Fe was about to build a branch to Farmington and Durango. This would have given them an advantage for Durango business, being standard gauge. So the D&RGW. which had been planning a branch to Famington, built it as standard gauge, an isolated standard gauge line. I have seen pictures of the operation, and Durango did have dual-gauge trackage. The thought was that they would conntect with the AT&SF in Farmington and be the originating and terminating carrier. Then the AT&SF didn't proceed with their plans, since with revenue division, it would not have been all that profitable. So the Farmington line was unique in the USA as a line converted from standard to narrow gauge. Someone else might be able to supply dates and more information.
Otto Mears was the financier and promoter of the Silverton Northern, Silverton Gladstone and Northerly, and the Rio Grande Southern. He prefered to work with William Jackson Palmer of the D&RG, rather than be a rival.
CSSHEGEWISCH All FEC passenger-carrying cars were identified by name only, none had a number.
All FEC passenger-carrying cars were identified by name only, none had a number.
I was a little surprised to see, in Birmingham, a Seaboard coach with a name and no number, in the mid-sixties. Then I realized that it was a former FEC coach.
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