Agaiin, Mini was the first municipal operation that ran a service directly competing with a franchised private company, with the four tracks on Market Street, two inside for Market Street Railway and its Predicessor, United, and the outer two tracks for MUNI. Other cities, New York and Washington DC, also had competing operations on the same street, but they belonged to two private companies, not a municipal operation and a private franchised company. The usual practice was to share the tracks. In New York, this often meant two slots for two power conduit systems.
Other Municipal operations, such as Detroit, that began while private companies operated, were new lines to provide service to areas that the private company did not feel justified the investment.
There were other places were there were two tracks on one street. 42nd Street between 10th Avenue and 12th Avenue had four tracks, two for New York Railways ("Green LInes", General Motors owned after 1926, and Third Avenue Railway, both private companies.
Another first for San Francisco was ending the franchise of a private company's cable operation and replacing it with a Municipal electric streetcar line.
My apoligies for not getting back here sooner
San Francisco was not the first government to reallocate private property in this way. Street railway's were generally franchises and as such were subject to the political winds of various politicos. In San Francisco people came to dislike much of corruption involved with the United Railways(Southern Pacific controlled the United Railways)(especially in the wake of the 1906 earthquake). The takeover of franchises was part off at was part of the act that created Muni.
However Muni was/is a first in this country for a major city. Think in a more general way.
Thx IGN
Geary Street was Muni's first line. But what really mattered was directly competing with private Market Street Railway cars on Market Street itself and then building the Twin Peaks and Sunset Tunnels for its exclusive use to take business away from Market Street which could not use the tunnels and had a much longer and slower route to the points they reachedf.
Requring public ownership of a system that had been a privately owned and operated, I think the Geary Street route was the first to operate under these allegations of a communist attitude.
My apologies for the delays in my reply. I'm out west and been busy and not had good connections.
To my question. I hate to ask another traction question, It is a subject I know more about.
Anyway the question:
In 1912 San Francisco opened it Municipal Railway to the cries of communism. What was the first that San Francisco did that caused this cry?
100% correct. The Trafford-Irwin segment was given up in 1942, one of the very few electric railwau abandonments in WWII. The connection to Pittsburgh Railways had been at Trafford, and the switch on the PR reverse loop was in place through to the paveing over of that loop after abandonment about 1952. In the postWWII era there were eight cross-country lines operating and one local streetcar in Connolsville (one line, one track, one car, the South Connolsville line) The car usually asigned was the systems only remaining Cincinnati Curve-side, a remenant of the abandoned separate Allegainy Division, which also connected to Pittsburgh Railways, but at a different location, and abandoned before WWII. It was a regular airbraked safety car and is at the Arden Pennsylvania Trolley Musuem. But as far as I know none of the classic 1912 design interurban cars, originally with center doors only, but the then fornt-right corner doors and steps added, were saved. These non-air cars held down all the interurban routes except Greensburg - Irwin, where conventional end-door cars ran. Abandonment of the "Coke Division" started in June 1949 with the branches south from Uniontown to Brownsvile, Fairchance, and Martin City and ended with the abandonement of the main line, Greenburg - Connolsville - Uniontown. the South Connolsville local car, and the Hecla Junction - Latrobe branch in 1953. Hecla Junction was half way between Greensburg and Connnolsville. and there was a good Italian restaurant at the wye.
I look forward to your question.
The West Penn Lines of South West Pennnsylvania. I thought I had posted earlier. Thx IGN
Big hint: The system had connection with a big city system which also had its own interurban lines with very different equipment. There was trolley frieght service on both systems, including interline moves (but no car interchange with steam railroads, just transloading), but this vanished before WWII. The track connection was broken between them during WWII because the connection was paralleled by excellent steam railroad local service and the steel scrap value of a large bridge was very high. But the last lines of the system operated into 1953. Elements of the large city system still exist on one form or another.
Pardon me, you said Ceder Hill - Worcester, not New London - Worcester, and Ceder Hill implies freight-only, because Ceder Hill is a freight yard. But to go from Ceder Hill Yard's connection with the NEC to Worcester, there were at least two all-New Haven routes, and both of course did have passenger service at one time. One was the old White Train route through Willamantic and then (always with a change of trains) boarding the New London - Worcester line, which still leaves the NEC at Groton and is operated by P&W for freight. And the other classic passenger service would be an NEC train from New Haven to New London, and then change to a New London - Worcester local, which followed the Boston train out to Groton and then turned north. Both the White Train route and the New London - Worcester passenger service dissapeared before WWII, with only the portion of the White Train route east of Willamantic remaining in service with Boston - Hartford -Waterbury trains (the Comet was used on the service at times, rode it), cut back to just Boston - Hartford towards its termination completely. The Budd car service originally planned for FCD cars was the New London - Worcester service, and for a week there was a connecting Winchendon - Worcester Boston and Maine train that had a discontinuation notice posted before the useful New Haven Railroad connection was established! The B&M train had an Alco road-switcher and a combine and coach, both wood open-platform cars. I don't think the new New Haven New London - Worcester service was restored after the 1956 hurricain. McGinnis or Alpert was in charge and not Dumaine.
The State of Maine stopped at New London, Providence, than Worcester going north and the reverse goind south. The equipment returning as the Day Express during WWII anad a short time after stopped at New London and then Worcester and used this Groton - Worcester line.
So I will ask a new question:
Name a North American interurban line using primarily a fleet of railway cars that had regererative-dynamic braking and hand-brakes but absolutely no air-brakes and no air-compressor on its primary fleet of cars, and operated this equpment to fill the majority of all its schedules until well after WWII. (It did have some air-brake cars, but they had a minor role in its operations and did not last until the end of operations.) And it was no slouch for speed. Or scenery! It did have some on-street trackage and thus also had magnetic track brakes for emergency stops, like PCC's.
The first of these cars was put in service in 1912.
YOu asked whether Worcester - New London was always freight-only. (Note it shares Groton - New London with the NEC main line, the actual junction, a wye, is at Groton. There is an interchange concecting track (which has seen passenger trains) at New London to the Central Vermont, which is on the west side of the Thames River, the Worcester - New London line being on the east side, actually Worcester - Groton, but very few trains stop at Groton.
I replied that all main and branch lines of the New Haven had passenger service at one time or another.
Do you wish your answer to be Worcester - New London?
You essentially covered the route already in your partially-correct answers but extended to include more than the cities the specific route served, places that would be off-limits to a FCD car..
What route would the Day Express take to make all stops that the State of Maine overnighter made EXCEPT PROVIDENCE?
Nearly all New Haven branches and main lines had some sort of passenger service before the onset of the 1929 depression. Of course it was not always freight only!!!!!!
A service planned for use by FCD cars, a Mack Bus body on PCC trucks and motors, would obviously not run through to Boston on one end (assuming the New York Central would allow such a vehicle on B&A tracks) and through to New Haven, let alone New York on the other end.
But it was run by RDC's. But there is no record of any NH RDC's interlining over other railroads. The only interline RDC operations to my knowledge (and I can be corrected if someone has additional information) were the Crusader-Wall Street Reading Terminal Phila - Jersey City (then Newark after Aldein Plan implementation), which was Reading-CofNJ (then Reading-CofNJ-PRR); and the B&M-CP Allouette between Boston and Montreal. which usually had a CP RDC mu'ed with a B&M RDC.
The service served only two cities and on-line towns, and most passengers did use connections at the southern end of service.
But there was a Cedar Hlll (New Haven) to Worchester route, too, which gave line not needing Hartford and SPringfield but an all NH, H &H route. Was it always freight only?
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There were many trains running via Springfield meeting that description inlcuding use of the Roger Wiliams equipment during Amtrak that I have already described. The trains via Springfield before Amtrak were the "INland Route" joint NYCentral (B&A)-New Haven trains. The only through train since the 1929 Depression that used the route that I am asking about was the Day Express, which avoided Providence and stopped at all the other stops of the State of Maine (night) Express
So was there a Boston to Back Bay to Worchester to New Haven train?
Providence to Lowell was in use by the State of Maine and its Concord. NH connection, but the Providence to Worcester portion was not used by the Day Express, only by the State of Maine overnighter. You did name the right route, but only between two cities. The third location had regular commuter service to the largest city in the area, and still does under the city's (and state's) large multi-mode transit system (now more frequent) and was neither part of the Bucky Dumain's restoration nor would it probably figiure in restored service in the future on this line.
The Day Express did not serve Providence. This alllowed suficient servicing time on both ends, saving about 80 minutes, to turn as the State of Maine, which did serve Providence. Both the Day Express and the State of Maine changed engines at New Haven and Worcester and often at Portland as well.
I looked at tyhe 1927 OG map and the 1958 map. The only conclusions are New Haven or New London to Worchester to Fitchburg...but I thought I mentioned that...so maybe Providence to Fitchburg.or just to Lowell.
Don 't give me anymore hints...I've just been too busy to pay attention...I will try again over the next day or so...I do have a 1927 OG to look over yet.
Please note that the Providence and Worcester has exanded far beyond the route between Providence and Worcester. Indeed the route that had the discussed RDC passenger service could well be regarded as its main line today, rather than its original route.
It is possible that the service introduced by Dumaine was ended by hurricain damage and not restored afterward.
One last major hint: The train that ran during the "30-year period without service" was the Day Express which was the equipment of the State of Maine used to provide a second train on that route, with all connections and pick-ups and setouts with the possible exception of Bangor, since travel demand was too great for the State of Maine to handle alone during WWII and shortly thereafter. The PUllmans were used as parlor cars, which how this train got on a thread about a year or so ago. This train used the route that had the local service instituted by Bucky Dumaine, but the State of Maine itself did not use this route. And this route was the only exception for the Day Express to follow the State of Maine route.
Again, the route is intact and has Providence and Worcester freight service.
This should be a give-a-way.
The Providence and Worcester does not provide freight service to Provincetown. Yes, McGinnis had stopped the service by 1958. Keep trying.
I am out of OGs! 6/58 is the only era piece I have for this one and anykind of service you mention is not there sans what has been mentioned and the Provincetown service from Boston.
The Pittsfield - Danbury - Milford branch did not ever support a through train that did not serviced local statoins, and trains running through to NY had onlyv one engine change, not two. Buky did not need to restore service because it had not been discontinued before he became CEO. I rode the Pittsfield line once, from Lenox through to GCT, on a Sunday evening after a music weekend at Tenglewood, leaving my car at the Lernox station. Power was an FL-9, one unit, which ran through to GCT. One head-end car, don't remember its particulars, two 8200-series "American Flyer" coaches, with regular non-reclining but high-back seats, and a post-war parlor, already refugured to 1 and 1 seating, at the rear . I uipgraded to parlor to ride the rear platform and enjoy the fine scenery. A white- or silver-haired tall man joined me after a while, and we discusssed the line, its future, and past. Ouir conversation continiued when it became dark between Danbury and Bridgeport, and our conversation continiued as we took adjacent parlor swivaling seats. I learned to my surprise that he was Alger Hiss, aparantly having completed his jail sentence. I did not discuss politics or his former life, but did learn that he worked at the Jeffersonian book store on W. 23rd Street (still there?) which had a reputation of a far left book store.
I was on my way to my sister's summer cottage in the Hamptons, and an on-time arrival avoided the need to spend the night in NYC. Instead, I took the "7" to Woodside, an LIRR mu to Jamaica, and the last Montauk train of that Sunday evening. After a four or five days of vacation with my sister, I returned to Tanglewood via NYCentral to Albany and Peter Pan bus to Lenox, picked up my car, and spent the weekend again with music at Tanglewood.
Bucky did not restore passenger service on the old "White Train" route, but the Budd car service he did restore did serve somewhat or part of the same territory. There was still passenger service between Willamantic and Boston, one round-trip Boston-Hartford train at the time, also using Budd cars, and no restoration was needed. But Wilamantic - Ceder Hill was only freight and remained so..
Henry, you were closer when you mentioned the State of Maine route.
Passenger service on the Air Line? Rgds IGN
I don' have access to the book nor timetables at the moment. However, I'm going inland and guess the trains to Pittsfield, MA from Danbury...I think RDC's were initially used on the revival of the service but FL9's took over with American Flyer cars. I chased that train one Sunday to Pittsfield but didn't know enough to see the unit turned on the armtstrong turntable! I think service actually at one time went on to N. Adams, MA as did NYC's Harlem Div. trains.
The Roger Williams was the name of a particular set of Budd equipment. It was specifically designed for the NY-Boston service, but ended up usually being mixed in with other Budd equipment and not run into GCT or Penn. When I rode a train of most of this equpment, it was being operated by Amtrak on the inland route, via Sprignfield, between New Haven and Boston (1972). Amtrak never used its third-rail capabilities. The train was too long to be regularly used in the service I am asking about, often one Budd car was sufficient and two cars were used often, but never more than two in regular service. Only if a tour group or other special event required more cars. It is possible that one or two of the Roger Wiliiams cars was used on this run on occasion, but it was never called the Roger Wiliiams in the timetable.
See "The New Haven Railroad in the McGinnis Years" from the New Haven Railroad historical Society
The Roger Williams.
You are close. The State of Maine never use RDC cars ever. This service only used RDC's. The State of Maine always ran via Providence. But for a period its equpment did use the route in question, but not as the State of Maine, and that was the train the ran during the 30-year period that the line had no local service.
I never actually rode the service. I rode the route twice, once each way, in summer camp special cars attached to the train mentioned above when the two camps could not secure PUllman space on the State of Maine one summer. (Heavyweight 8-wheel plain Jain New Haven open window coaches with grey interiors and a thin red and thin blue stripe at the bottom edge of the clerestory interior, each side and end.) Engine change at New Haven, at Worcestor, and movement of the coaches and one PUllman to a different train to Concord, NH, at Lowell with a reverse in direction. (The same move was also routine for the State of Maine.) I also rode it again later on two fan trips, one the original FCD car, and the other a normal Budd RDC-1 fan-trip, the same kind of equpment on the normal service that Dumaine introduced.
I think the only place FCD's were ever tried in regular passenger service was between Hyannis and Woods Hole, where they could not meet normal standards of comfort and reliability, even though fuel consumption was way below that of an RDC. They used PCC-car trucks and motors, a Mack Bus body and diesel engine, plus a dc generator.
I am now guessing the State of Maine as the train and New London-Willamatic-Worchester the route. unless it was east from New Haven to Willamantic. Although my OG's show State of Maine via Providence they are not in your dating period.
Again, the route is operated by Providence and Worcester today, which also has another route between the end-ponts, although part of that is on freight operation trackage rights.
Hint, the service inaugurated by Bucky Dumain used Budd RDC;s only, but was originally planned for Mack FDC cars which were never used in revenue service to my knowledge and were sold overseas (to Spain?) where they may still be service. But I rode an FDC over the line on a fan trip. Also rode an RDC over the line on a fan trip. And made a trip each way on the conventional steam-hauled train that plied the route without local service that came and went during the "30-year period" that the the line was without sevice.
If subsidozed and useful passenger service returns to the line, it might most logically be operated by Shore Line East.
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