If TARS had been more wealthy, we might have seen conduit PCCs in NYC as well.
Another PCC question. Two companies received double ended PCC lookalikes, but were not technically PCCs because of the ERPCC not receiving royalties. Which two companies?
At one time Washington had two-pole operation on outlying lines - pre-PCC of course.
NW is correct and got there first. But there is a second answer: Cincinnati. Used two poles trolleybus style to avoid telephone interference downtown, by city law, but switched to one pole with standard ground return in the sububs. Washington's PCC's could lower and raise poles without the operator leaving his seat. Cincinnati required pole pulling. So did some of Washington's older cars.
rcdryeWhich North American city had PCC cars with more than one power collection system?
Washington DC had cars with conduit and poles. They were also shorter than standard PCCs.
Some of Chicago's PCC-control L cars had both third rail shoes and trolley poles (or bow trolleys). Which North American city had PCC cars with more than one power collection system?
Two of the ex-KC postwar cars showed up at Seashore this past summer. That's where the odd glass was pointed out to me. They also have a unique rear profile. They aren't accessioned as far as I know, so I don't know what's planned for them.
RC gets it this round. The cars later made their way to other cities.
RC, your question.
rc is correct. I knew the answer, but he got there first.
Additional information related to gallery coaches on SP. Southern Pacific's suburban service did not operate push-pulls until operation was taken over by the Peninsula Joint Powers Board and the service was completely re-equipped.
NorthWest Keeping it streetcar related: This city bought 160 post war all-electric PCC streetcars without standee windows, reportedly because the president of the company didn't like them.
Keeping it streetcar related:
This city bought 160 post war all-electric PCC streetcars without standee windows, reportedly because the president of the company didn't like them.
Kansas City. They also have odd blue glass in the windows.
and by all means ask the next question
Its mate 4573, was the car I ran most often at Branford (Shore Line Trolley Musuem) in my years as operator there, 1957-1966. 1970-1995
daveklepper Connecticut Co. 1391: RR-roof open-bench car Brooklyn 4547 Convertable car Eastern Mass (former Bay State) 4387 Semi-convertable (a J > G. Brill specialty) Large window slide into upper car body and part of the roof. Connecticut 1160 wood deck-roof closed car
Connecticut Co. 1391: RR-roof open-bench car
Brooklyn 4547 Convertable car
Eastern Mass (former Bay State) 4387 Semi-convertable (a J > G. Brill specialty) Large window slide into upper car body and part of the roof.
Connecticut 1160 wood deck-roof closed car
Except for 1391, all of the cars above are either part of the regular operating fleet (1160) or are under restoration by the Seashore shops(838, 4387, 4547). 1391 is covered as an example by 303 (Brill 1901 15 bench open, operating fleet) and 838 (J.M. Jones 1905 15 bench open, tested last summer). 4547 has some remaining wiring and motor issues. In my years as an operator I have many happy hours on all of them except 4547.
You described the equipment correctly and named examples, so you should ask the next question.
However, however, there are proper names for each car type:
Many cities had two fleets of cars, summer and winter fleets. The summer fleets had no sides, being completely open, to let in the breeze. Winter fleets had sides and windows, to keep occupants warm. The bodies were switched in spring and fall.
Some replacements had removable sides, or sides that could slide up (sort of like a garage door) up into the ceiling. Some had three pane windows, which could slide into the side of the car. There was also the California Car, with half open and half closed (San Francisco's cable cars are of this type).
Examples (at Seashore Trolley Museum)
Summer Fleet: Connecticut Co 1391
Convertible (removable sides): Brooklyn Rapid Transit 4547
Windows slide into car: Eastern Massachusetts Street Railway 4387
Winter Fleet:Connecticut Co 1160
Some streetcar companies had two fleets of cars, sharing the same motors and trucks. Name the circimstances and reasons and what the replacement(s) for this type of situation was or were
Give examples
CB&Q (1950-1953) C&NW (1955-1956) and SP (1955-1957) all hauled gallery cars behind steam. Dave is correct that the Milwaukee was the first owner that never pulled them with steam (1963). Rock Island's cars came in 1964. Both C&NW and SP mixed their early bilevels with single-level semi-lightweights behind steam, with SP continuing the practice until the last Harriman coaches were retired in the early 1980s.
C&NW's cars were initially steam heated, the 1955 St Lous Car cars were converted to HEP when the P-S cars began arriving in 1958. CB&Q cars were used with heavyweight and later lightweight cars with HEP power supplies until Metra and BN sent the E8s and E9s to Morrison-Knudsen for rebuild and conversion to HEP. SP's cars were steam heated for their entire service lives in San Francisco Commute service. As IGN noted, SP's cars also lacked MU connections, and SP never had a cab car.
SP's F-M Trainmasters were seldom if ever operated in MU, let alone push-pull. Ten SDP45s and three GP40P-2s replaced the Trainmasters in 1973-1975. The eleven GP9s assigned to the Commute pool all had dual control, and occasionally operated in pairs. Boiler SD7s and SD9s, including a pair of 1974-upgraded SD9Es, were also used in the pool from time to time. Long-hood-forward operation of the GP9s was rare, except for train 141 (until 1971) which was the Del Monte from Monterey where there was no turntable. SP had run the Del Monte to Pacific Grove, where there was a turntable, in steam days.
Your question, Dave.
I think it was the Milwaukee, got gallery cars only after dieslization and before the Rock IC came later, so did South Shore, way later, and C&NW, CB&Q, SP all had gallery cars at the same time as steam. In fact, summer of 1952, I rode in a CB&Q gallery car behind steam.
RE: tank engines. I thought the CNJ had some as did the B&A out of Boston. As for leading to electric lines, SIRR under the control of the B&O possibly had some, too. But in NY, didn't BEDT before juice?
Now, for the double deckers. I will venture a guess to be IC out of Chicago if not South Shore.
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Although there were a number of "double-deck" commuter cars tried, the so-called "gallery" car remains the most common pattern. Which operator of "gallery" commuter cars was the first one that did NOT use them with steam locomotives? ( and no, the LIRR's electric double-deckers were NOT gallery cars...)
rc covered the summertime operations to Coney by mentioning LIRR operating over BRT, and the other tanks to CI were rapid transit, not Class I railiroads. All rapid transit systems in NYC before subways had tanks at one time or another. Every one.
I think you are correct about Staten Island. I do not think many of the Jersey properties used tanks, most used camelbacks with tenders, including little 0-4-0 switchefs. Incidently, age 9, 1941, I saw a camelback on a freight on Staten Island. PRR NEVER USED TANK ENGINES!!! The LIRR did, and apparently that experience soured PRR on them.
rc is correct about the Gettys Square Branch off the Putnam Div. line at Van Countlandt Park Junction with NYC-type third rail into the two-track stub-end Sedgewick Ave Station with interchange with the 9th (and 6th during rush hours to June 1940) Ave. Elevated. The NYCentral could have routed these trains into GCT but never did.
rc, next question?
daveklepper This railroad also used tank engines, including tank engines of a more modern designs and used much later (after this line was first electrified and then mostly abandoned) in an entirely different metropolitan area, in services that were never electrified by this railroad. During the period tank engines and then mus were used, the attempt was to build ridership with frequent service of short trains, generally three cars.
New York Central Getty Square line?
One more and you can ask the next question. This one competed with another line of the same railroad, and with streetcars connecting to first elevated trains and then an elevated extension of the subway system. It and the streetcars could be boarded in the center of the municipality it served, while the other line of the same railroad did not use any tank engines and provided somewhat better service with a station just somewhat more remote from the center of the municipality, a station still served extensively by a heavily used passenger service. This railroad also used tank engines, including tank engines of a more modern designs and used much later (after this line was first electrified and then mostly abandoned) in an entirely different metropolitan area, in services that were never electrified by this railroad. During the period tank engines and then mus were used, the attempt was to build ridership with frequent service of short trains, generally three cars.
LIRR bought a few tank engines from Chicago's Lake Street Elevated and used them in some joint operations with an El (BRT?) in Brooklyn. The subway to the Flatbush terminal in Brooklyn replaced them as the line was electrified. There was also a steam dummy operation to Coney Island that was replaced by a rapid transit line. Several switching lines including Class I's used tank engines in freight service along the waterfront.
Hints: One of the NY City area railroads bought at least some of its tank engines from a transit operation that converted to electricity. One had tank engines in another city area location as well.
My memory is not great on that, but I think it m was Taconite. Your local Canadian consulate can find out if it is important.
Question: Name all the railroads other than the rapid transit elevated railroads that were in the New York area and provided passenger service hauled by steam tank engnines of one type or anothoer, and give as much information and you can on the services and locomotives and what if any replaced them.
daveklepper Are you certain it was a common carrier and not just dedicated to a single lumber comany's logs?
Are you certain it was a common carrier and not just dedicated to a single lumber comany's logs?
Dave, the last 42" gauge road in the US was the Big Sandy & Cumberland. It was a common carrier and the 1930 OG's show it to have passenger service. As the timber was depleted on some of its earlier lines they were abandoned and by 1931, when it was absorbed into the N&W, it ran only between Devon, WV and Grundy, VA. Your identification of the Newfoundland Ry. entitles you to ask the next question.
Many thanks for the enjoyable photos. I was surprised to see the length of the Newfie Bullet. I counted at least 12 cars. The lounge at the rear of the open platform business car sure looks inviting and I suspect you spent a few hours savoring its comforts and the views it afforded. By 1967 I thought the sleeper(s) might have been a bit threadbare but judging from the inside photo of your car it appears to be clean and well maintained. Do you know what was carried in the cable cars? The structure shown in the photo where it crossed the railroad appears to have been built to protect from anything falling out of the cable cars onto the tracks.
Mark
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