This pocket streamliner ran under several train names, one of the last being that of a county it ran through, but didn't start or end in. I want:
1. The original name/owner of the train
2. At least one other name it ran under, with endpoints.
3. The name of the county, and the endpoints of the run under that name.
Yes, rc, by all mwans let us have your question!
Dave, Can I claim the correct answer yet (I had about 10)? I will post a new thread on (non-)union stations to continue this discussion.
Dragoman's comment about Oakland Mole reminds me that WP once had its own mole and ferries. Santa Fe's station at 40th and San Pablo was a late addition - Santa Fe's ferries went from Richmond Point before the Oakland Branch was built in the teens. WP And AT&SF used SP's Mole and ferries by USRA order during WW I, then continued the practice because it worked well. AT&SF was the first defector, but not until after the Bay Bridge opened.
rcdrye Oakland CA (WP 3rd and Washington; SP 16th St; AT&SF Richmond)
Oakland CA (WP 3rd and Washington; SP 16th St; AT&SF Richmond)
I find it interesting, how big a part is played by timing, when looking at such questions and answers.
For example, in Oakland, Thr Santa Fe's depot was actually at 40th and San Pablo (on the Oakland/Emeryville border) until 1958.
Also before 1958, Southern Pacific's primary Oakland terminal was the "Oakland Mole", the combined train/ferry transfer station. Leaving there, trains towards Sacramento and (compass) east, north, and south (through the San Joaquin Valley) would also stop at 16th Street. Those heading towards San Jose would instead stop at 1st & Broadway depot (near the site of today's Amtrak Jack London Square station).
In fact, I would nominate the Oakland Mole as an un-named union station, since there were periods when WP's California Zephyr and Santa Fe's San Francisco Chief both also continued beyond their respective depots to the Mole.
I know of one big place where a Union Station could have been located. North Philadelphia on the NEC-ex-PRR/North Broad Street on SEPTA-ex-Reading.
go ahead and name others, big and small.
Detroit (MC, Ft St Union, Brush St)
Philadelphia (30th St, Broad St PRR; 24th/Chestnut B&O; Reading, Reading Terminal)
Salt Lake City (Union, D&RGW/WP; UP)
Milwaukee WI (CMStP&P, C&NW)
Seattle WA (King St NP GN; Union UP Milw)
There were dozens of small places where a Union station could have been, but wasn't installed like Elizabeth NJ.
The North Shore had two small (1908) and three middle-size (1918, 1922) GE steeplecabs before the Skokie line was built. The engine house at Pettibone yard had smoke jacks into the 1930s, but except for a note about setting up a standpipe at Pettibone for steam locomotives in 1927, no one seems to have found any pictures. They may have just been left on the property with no clear title after the Milwaukee division was completed, since the financial history of the C&ME, its contractors and its managers/owners is quite twisted.
Thanks for a good reply. I guess after construction of the Skokie Valley line, the North Shore decided they would not need steam locomotives, since no further construction was anticipated. Were they purchased secohd-hand originally?
Hope some others come across with multiple staton cities. You gave five above, but I know you are capable of more.
We start with Boston. North Station/South Station. Best path from North Station to the Corridor via the "T" Orange Line and Back Bay. North Station to South Station requires a change to the Red Line at Downtown Crossing.
Stockton CA also has two stations, both served by the San Joaquin trains, depending on whether they're headed to Oakland or Sacramento. The latter also serves ACE trains to San Jose.
I'll enter Cleveland in the multiple stations list, since PRR never exited its own 55th St Station to go to CUT. Might want to extend it to 60 years ago for that.
Pittsburgh had the B&O station at Grant St, the P&LE station at Smithfield St also used by B&O through trains, and PRR's station on Liberty Ave.
For a long time Elko Nevada's WP station served both SP and WP eastbounds, with westbounds handled at SP's station. This arrangement lasted into the Amtrak era.
The North Shore's steam engines were owned by and lettered for C&ME and were used for freight service as well as construction. The last major construction workout they got was for the Skokie Valley line. Both recent CERA bulletins and articles in Shore Line Historical Associations "First and Fastest" document their existence.
This question probably requires multiple people to answer, with he/she who gives the most correct answers gets to ask the next question.
The steam locomotives were used in constructing the North Shore. A possible reason for their not being on the regular roster was that they were still owned by the contractor and only leased.
My question: We are knowledgeable about the classical Chicago station situation and the necessity for most through passengers to change stations in Chicago, exceptions being those whose arriving and departing trains were both located at Union Station or Dearborn or LaSalle or Central or stopped at Englewood or Joliette Union Stations. Today, the Chicago situation is improved, solved for long distance trains, and remaining only for connections to a portion of METRA's suburban system, but that does still count in my book. There is one remaining situation with regard to long distance trains, and name the city. And then name all the cities that had the problem fifty years ago. With details.
Correct. C&ME ordered four Alco/GE 40-ton steeplecabs in 1907, took delivery of two, 450 and 451. The two were later used as switchers for CNS&M's "Ferry Truck" service at Harrison St. Milwaukee and Montrose Ave. Chicago. OE took delivery of the remaining two as 1200V units, used them until 1945. CNS&M bought OE's 50 and 51, boxcab and "Alligator" four truck locomotives built in SP&S' shops in part from retired passenger cars, and rewired them to 600 volt 458 and 459. CNS&M's original intent was to use them on the Commonwealth Edison coal trains, but poor handling by motormen resulted in motor burnouts, so they were reassigned to general freight and the steeplecab "pups" 452-454 and 457 hauled the coal trains in MU.
The C&ME and CNS&M used steam locomotives in freight service into the 1920s as well as the GE steeple cabs. The delivery of battery-electric units 455 and 456 allowed the retirement of the last steamers, which were not carried on the normal roster for some reason.
Correction:
At the time the small steeple-cabs were delivered, the North Shore was the Chicago and Milwaukee Electric Railroad. The reorganization occured in 1916.
The jointly owned western railroad was the Spokain Portland and Seattle, the interurban it owned, the Oregon Electric, and the Midwestern Interurban the Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee. Glad to have seen one of the ex-OE's in action. They were 458 and 459 on the North Shore.
For this question we go electric.
A midwestern interurban ordered four steeplecab locomotives from GE just as it was completing its main line between its two endpoints, but was able to take delivery of only two of them. The other two were delivered to a western interurban which was owned by a joint regional subsidiary of two large western carriers.
The two small GE steeplecabs in the midwest ended up in switching service at each and of their owner's (and its successor's) main line until after WW II. The others were sold when their owner got larger and heavier engines.
About the time the small engines lost their switching jobs and were retired, other freight service had picked up enough that the midwestern railroad bought two very large and heavy (by interurban standards) locomotives that had been built for the western interurban, by then in the process of dieselization.
Name the two interurbans and the regional carrier that owned the western one.
Depending on whose notes you believe, 5344 was either streamlined by the engineering department at Case Institute of Technology - part of today's Case Western University, or by Carl F. Kantola, an NYC employee, or by both together, which makes sense, since the design was supposedly wind-tunnel tested. The Rexall engine followed it by a few months, both done at NYC's West Albany shops. Most of the NYC's streamline steam was done to Henry Dreyfuss' designs, including 5344 when it got new shrowding in 1939. NYC's streamlined Pacifics used in Mercury service were also done by Dreyfuss, but didn't look as nice as any of the Hudsons.
If that preceded the similar Rexall NYCentral Mowhawk of the same year, you are correct. Now who was the designer of both?
LV handed off the Maple Leaf sleepers to CN at Niagara Falls.
The B&O's "Windsplitter" of 1902 may qualify. B&O 822 was fitted with a canvas shroud and a sheetmetal wedge to pull what otherwise looked like a 1940's era streamlined train, though the cars were constructed of wood. The"Baltimore Sun" reported it ran off some miles in 28 seconds (128.5 MPH) en route from Baltimore to Washington - pretty unlikely even for an 80" drivered 4-4-0.
Otherwise I'm going with NYC's 5344 "Commodore Vanderbilt" of 1934.
i should have noted the handover points.
Buffalo the LV - CN connection or Niagra Falls?
Question: The earliest North American streamlined steam locomotive? Details?
Correct. The Reading portion of the Washington-Toronto car's run ran from B&O's 24th St station in Philadelphia to Lehigh Valley's station in Bethlehem. After B&O dropped out in the early 1950s it ran from Reading Terminal.
Then I suppose it was the Washington - Toronto sleeper that went B&O - Reading - LV - CN, and was shortened to Philadelphia - Toronto, shifted from Washington Union to Reading Terminal.
Not CNJ. Read the original question.
Well then, one terminal is Washington. Possibly a Washington - Toronto sleeper, the one that used the CNJ for a short distance but was not shown in the CNJ timetable. The train was a Washington - Buffalo train, but the sleeper continued on to Toronto. Railroads involved were the B&O, Reading, CNJ, DL&W, and CN, I think The train to Toronto came from New York via the LV.
OK, huge hint here. Only one end of the run was in Canada. More than two railroads were involved.
Must be a through sleeper from Ottowa, Canada's National Capitol, to Halifax, a Provincial Capitol, and in 1950, the car was shifted from the CN east of Quebec to the CP.
"National capital: you do mean the capital of a nation?"
Yes
National capital: you do mean the capital of a nation?
Johnny
For a through sleeping car between a national and a provincial capital this intermediate railroad did not use its own station at either end of its piece of the trip. When the car's route was shortened in the 1950s, the formerly intermediate railroad began using its own eponymous terminal.
End points, railroads, and the cities where the other railroad's station was used.
Sorry I was unable to respond yesterday. Phillipsburg is the town I was proposing. Since EL had service to Newark there are two answers. Each of you can ask a question.
I'm guessing the PRSL is not considered a sepperate componant of Conrail predecessors. And Phillipsburg, NJ isn't it?
At one time the PRR had trackage rights over the L&HR all the way to Maybrook. Did PC still have these rights?
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