Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

[rcdrye]

A bus line that runs on Madison in Manhattan, crosses the Bronx River on the Madison Avenue Bridge and passes about as close to Mott Haven as anything else is the BxM4 Woodlawn/Midtown. I can't find any modern reference to an Ironwood Bridge in New York.

[daveklepper]

that is because you are looking at the express bus map   the Manhattan bus map is easier to find than the complete Bronx one, the latter requires not looking at the service guide, but only at the map.  but both the complete bronx map and the Manhattan map show the ex-streetcar line as a pure Bx bus, not a BXM bus which is an extra-fare express bus that never had a streetcar predecessor.

you've got the right bridge, now find either of the complete maps and you will easily identify the line.

the bridge was named for a street with the same name on both sides of the bridge, with the exception of west on one side and east on the other.  i guess Madison Ave. Bridge sounds nices, even though there is no Madison Avenue on the Bronx side of the Bridge, only on the Manhattan side.

[rcdrye]

Making it the 33 East 138th/West 135th ?  Looks like it goes to Port Morris in the Bronx.  Did the streetcars run on East 135th at one time (like, before the Major Deegan Expressway?) or West 138th?  The Madison Avenue bridge could have easily been the 138th St. bridge.

[wanswheel]

Here are some photos in the city archive. In the aerial photo, Madison Avenue (one block east of Central Park) and 138th St. meet at the third bridge from the top.

http://nycma.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/s/roymy9 Yankee Stadium

http://nycma.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/s/sz6ln7  Madison Ave. Bridge

http://nycma.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/s/d7z8eh  Swung open

http://nycma.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/s/ez1g2p  Bronx tracks

http://nycma.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/s/142r7o  Roadway

http://nycma.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/s/e7tbyp  Old bridge

[daveklepper]

In my day, indeed, everyone called it the 138th Street Bridge, without exception. 

The bus map and what I told you already answered your question.

In Manhattan, if the 138th Street Crosstown, name of the streetcar predecessor of the current Bx33 bus, ran on 138th Street, then just where would it share tracks with the NY&Harlem line? with conduit in the street, on Madison Avenue?   The sharing track with conduit was three blocks long,  Go figure.   Then  there was the shared track without conduit, across the bridge to the now  non=existing NYCentral Station.

go ahead and ask the next question.  whew!    like pulling teeth

I first rode that line in September 1947.  After the total abandonment of the Third Avenue's specifically Manhattan lines, the last being the K and the 125th X on June 29th, the 138th crosstown at 135th and 8th became the closest streetcar line to my parent's home at W85th.  Other then the line over the Queensboro Bridge.

When I saw the conduit on Madison, I exited the former Manhattan 101-200 series car, now with trolley-poles, to inspect.  I found some of the conduit manhole covers did not say NY&H, but said NYRy.  This indicated to me that the conduit had been maintained up to the end of the streetcar service on the 4th and Madison line.  I understand that before the post-war Third Avenue abandonment program began, 01-100 straight-side convertables were the regular cars on the line.

At the time of the construction of the original Grand Central Station in 1872, the horsecar line, was extended north of 42^nd Street, one block west of the tracks used by the steam trains, on the new Madison Avenue, using trackage rights on Third Avenue’s 42^nd Street crosstown line for the one block between 4^th, now Park Avenue, and Madison Avenue, all the way to the Harlem River at 138^th Street.  Here, a new bridge brought the horsecar line to what became the 138^th Street New York Central Station, but was then simply called The Bronx.  When the Union Railway, later part of the Metropolitan and then Third Avenue, built the 138 Street crosstown line from Southern Boulevard, in the Bronx to 8^th Avenue and 135^th Street, they used trackage rights on the New York and Harlem horsecar line from The Bronx Station, across the 138^th Street bridge, and from 138^th to 135^th Street on Madison Avenue.  This was the last piece of active New York Railways and active New York and Harlem street trackage, running into July 1948, and the conduit was visible to the end.  When the 4^th and Madison line was converted to conduit electric operation, the conduit was not extended across the 138^th Street Bridge, and the New York and Harlem operated a shuttle service, first from 138^th Street, and then from a Third Avenue crossover on 135^th  Street just west of Madison Avenue to and from The Bronx Station.  Three NY&H, later New York Railways, regular closed cars were trolley-pole equipped for this shuttle service.  In later years the 4^th and Madison conduit cars ran only to 135^th Street , but the conduit was maintained to 138^th, and possibly a daily franchise car made the run to that destination.  Third Avenue or Metropolitan somehow got permission for several of its Bronx lines to use trolley wire on the portions of those lines in Manhattan .  This included a loop and carhouse connection at 129^th Street and Third Avenue, 138^th to 135^th  Streets and 135^th Street from Madison Avenue to Eight Avenue, 155^th Street from 8^th to Amsterdam Avenue, 181^st Street from Amsterdam Avenue to Broadway, 207 th Street from the Harlem River to Broadway, and from the Kingsbridge Carhouse north on  Broadway to the north end of the Bridge itself at 225^th Street, also equipped with conduit for the Kingsbridge (125^th St, Amst., and B’way) cars.

We never knew that officially it was and is the Madison Avenue bridge, everyone I knew called it the 138th St.  Bridge,

[wanswheel]

The old Madison Avenue Bridge connected to Westchester County, as the Bronx was not yet a county or a borough in 1884. The NY Times begins a 1910 article with: “The new Madison Avenue or 138th Street bridge over the Harlem River will be opened to traffic at noon to-morrow with due ceremony.”

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9906E1D91F3DEE32A25754C1A9619C946196D6CF

[Dragoman]

Dave --

It only feels "like pulling teeth" because you ask such wonderfully detailed questions, coming out of your extensive first-hand experience and knowledge of NY & of trolley operations everywhere.

I for one can never answer, but enjoy learning from the hints and answers as they unfold.

[daveklepper]

I look forward to RC's question, and I can learn a lot from him and the rest of you, too.  Can anyone post a pix of The Bronx station?  I recall it as a rather monumental affair.   A horsecar in the forecourt would be terrific.

[wanswheel]

Yes we have no horsecars, we have no horsecars today.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A0CE7D81E38E033A25756C1A9679D94669FD7CF

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/%28King1893NYC%29_pg118_MOTT-HAVEN_STATION%2C_138TH_STREET%2C_NEW-YORK_CENTRAL_%26_HUDSON-RIVER_RAILROAD.jpg

http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/NYCRR02.Html

[daveklepper]

GREAT, TERRIFIC, AND NOW WAITING FOR RC'S QUESTION

[rcdrye]

A little jaunt into the colorful streamliner era...

A large system with a famous color scheme for its streamliners had an affiliate which used a nearly, but not completely identical scheme.  All of the parent carrier's motive power was that was painted in the famous scheme was either streamlined steam or diesels.  The affiliate had one non-streamlined locomotive painted in the famous scheme that was the only one of its type on the combined system.

Name the parent, the affiliate, and the name used for the color scheme. 

[NorthWest]

Atlantic Coast Line, Charleston & Western Carolina, Royal Palm Purple.

[daveklepper]

great question and answer.   more details please?   what was the singular loco?

what was acl's streamlined steam?   never knew acl had streamlined steam.

look forward to northwest's question.

[rcdrye]

Not ACL - bit further west.  ACL had a number of GPs in the passenger scheme.

[daveklepper]

and as far a I know, ACL did not own streamlined steam of any type

could this be the SP and the Cotton Belt?

[rcdrye]

So give me some details...

[KCSfan]

I believe it was the SP but not the Cotton Belt which AFAIK never had any streamlined steam. I believe the affiliated road was the T&NO which ran streamlined steam on the Sunbeam between Dallas and Houston. I don't have time to look it up now but I think the engine was a 4-6-2. The color scheme was known as the Daylight scheme.

Mark

[rcdrye]

Unlike the Milwaukee Road, which "Hiawatha'd" a couple of unstreamlined locomotives as backups, T&NO put "Sunbeam" paint only on the three streamlined P-14 4-6-2's.  Unstreamlined 4-6-2s were the backup power.  The competition was the CRI&P's TA-powered "Texas Rocket" and the FW&D's "Sam Houston Zephyr, originally Zephyr 9901.  (Actually both trains were operated by the jointly-owned "Burlington-Rock Island")

Cotton Belt did not have any steam locomotives in the Daylight scheme.  The principal difference between SSW's version of "Daylight" paint and SP's is that SSW units and cars had silver or aluminum roofs.  The two SSW PA1's (300,301) were transferred to SP in 1960 and operated briefly with SP lettering (as 6067 and 6068) and silver roof  before getting repainted in SP's "Bloody Nose" scheme.  SSW's lone FP7 (330, renumbered 306) wore a similar scheme, repainted into "Bloody Nose" in 1959 - did pull daylight painted cars in that scheme.  It was not transferred to SP, but operated in the SSW freight pool until traded to EMD or GE for something bigger in the late 1960s.

PA's had black-on-white "Gin Saw", FP7 had white-on-black (Thanks to espee.railfan.net)

Other candidates for the non-streamlined "Daylight?"

[daveklepper]

The T&NO would be correct but you wrote one, not three, non-streamlined locomotive, the only one of its kind on the entire combined roster.   So the St. Louis Southwestern, the Cotton Belt, is it, with one modified switcher, I believe an EMD 1200 HP, with road trucks and boiler. painted to resemble the Daylight scheme.  I don't remember the exact use or why this special locomotive existed, whether for passenger station switching or a connecting train.  

[rcdrye]

The engine in question was built by EMD, but it was the only one of its kind on the combined roster.  SSW and SP had plenty of 1200 HP EMD switchers in several models, all of the Cotton Belt units (SSW had the only SW7s and SW9s) originally in black with an orange frame and orange panels on both ends..

SP had 11 engines similar to the one in question in passenger service until the early 1980s.

[daveklepper]

Name all the USA cities (are none in Canada) that had efficient streetcar systems before WWII, did not buy PCC cars until after WWII, had efficient widespread PCC operation, and then converted to all-bus operation.  Name any where LRT and/or streetcar is now under construction or planning.

[rcdrye]

Dave did get the Cotton Belt/SP, but missed the engine.  Cotton Belt had nine passenger diesels:  Two PA1s, an FP7, a GP7and five RS3s.  The GP7(320, later 304) was not normally assigned to handle a train, but was nonetheless in full "Daylight" paint.  It was the only GP7 on the combined SP/SSW roster.  Painted in "Black Widow" in the mid-1950s when it was renumbered, it kept its boiler until around 1960. The rest of the passenger diesels were Alco RS3s delivered in either switcher black and orange or "Black Widow", operated long hood first.

I'll start Dave's list: 

Johnstown PA (no LRT)

Minneapolis/St. Paul (lots of LRT activity)

St. Louis (existing LRT system)

Birmingham AL (no LRT)

El Paso TX (some talk about LRT)

Dallas TX (LRT)

Detroit MI (LRT)

Most other systems had a mix of pre- and postwar PCCs, or few enough PCCs that their operation was concentrated (i.e. Cleveland).

[daveklepper]

My impression is that St. Louis  got its first PCC's before or during WWII.  Am I wrong on this?  El Paso was unusual in that all its PCC's were second-hand, from San Diego.  There is only one city left out, and perhaps because its PCCs did not have standee windows, you might think they were WWII era or ealier, but the system specifically ordered the cars without standiee windows.  Anyone want to try?

I have to admit being wrong about the locomotive, thinking it was a 1200HP road-switcher with E-unit trucks!  I had thought about a GP-7, but found it hard to believe that SP did not have any of this popular model.

[rcdrye]

Kansas City had postwar PCCs with no standee windows.  Apparently the GM of KCPS didn't like them.  I hadn't included KC because I hadn't verified that KC didn't have prewar models.  KC has talked a lot about LRT stuff.  I'm not sure what teh staet of the project is.

[daveklepper]

I and others can report when information is available .  Meanwhile,  by all means ask the next question!   And yes, all Kansas City's PCC's came after WWII.

[rcdrye]

Way back in the wooden Pullman era, this car travelled between two state capitals on two railroads, one of them what would now be called a short line, travelling through a third state capital on the way.  Name the RRs, the junction point and the state capitals.

[NP Eddie]

I would like to go back a question or two about passenger Geeps painted passenger colors. The NP's were the freight colors. I remember an MP or TP Geep in passenger colors. Any others?

Ed Burns

P. S. Dave Klepper---please e-mail me at [e-mail]

[rcdrye]

Let's repost that as a separate thread - say "Passenger Hood Units"

[daveklepper]

I feel fairly certain that there was such a car that ran from

Boston through Concord, NH, to Montpelier or Burlington, VT, whichever is the capitol.   It may have had some mileage on the Central Vermont, which would be consdered a short line today although Class I for many years.  Most of its route on the B&M, of course.

White River Junction would be the interface between the B&M and the CV.

[rcdrye]

Wasn't the Central Vermont. While CV did reach Montpelier (the state capital) on a branch, the Pullmans ran on the main line via Montpelier Junction on the accomodation train to St. Albans. CV Pullmans didn't reach Burlington either after the Vermont and Canada line was built.