Was it the Boston & Maine/ Montreal & Wells River, interchanging at Wells River, between Boston and Montpelier via Concord?
rfpjohn Was it the Boston & Maine/ Montreal & Wells River, interchanging at Wells River, between Boston and Montpelier via Concord?
We have a winner! The actual interchange point was in Woodsville NH, across the Connecticut River from Wells River. It looks like it ran until around 1912. B&M and predecessor Boston Concord and Montreal were the carriers.
Your question, RFPJohn !
OK, nothing like a good guess!
Here's my entry: This short line operated as a bridge carrier between two sections of a class one. Sometimes providing all service for the class one at the outer end, sometimes the class one crewed and operated it's own service. Speeds were up to 60mph on the short line and Parlor cars were operated for quite a number of years. The last remnant of this short line became one of the earliest Salzberg operations (if not the first), expiring just before WW2. Have at it!
Hoosack Tunnel and Wilmington? With the Boston and Maine? or Unadilla Valley and the New York Central?
Going back to my question and RC's answer, it might be of interest to learn that as far as I know, Brooklyn, San Diego, and Baltimore, were the three cities that had pre-WWII PCCs but no wartime or postwar PCCs. Anyone can correct me if necessary.
Actually, Dave, parts of it's last two engines and it's master mechanic ended up on the Unadilla Valley. One must go further south and expect to get sand in your shoes.
OK. A little more info. This shortline also connected with another class one at two locations. One of them a shared three way junction with the previously mentioned class one. When operated as a Salzberg property, this second class one was the sole connection to the outside world. A doubleheaded NRHS excursion was run, using the shortline's engines and passenger equipment from the second class one.
No bites yet? Another smidgen of information: A locomotive, currently in the RR Museum of Pennsylvania was leased to the shortline on at least one occasion, along with several others of the same class (generally only one at a time) when their own power was laid up. This class of engine was also the heaviest allowed on the isolated segment of the class 1, to which the class 1 had to traverse the shortline in question to access.
You mean the short line owned just one locomotive?
No, they actually had four locomotives on their roster during the first half of the thirties. Their service requirements were for two operable engines. Deferred maintenance made it difficult to always have two of their own fleet up and running. Leasing suitable power from the class one connection was a frequent necessity. They also relied on the class one for passenger equipment until the end of such service. All this leasing, as well as passenger service, were prior to the Salzberg ownership.
The NRHS excursion used Jersey Central equipment.
Can anyone give the shortline's name? It changed when it became a Salzberg operation.
The Highlands Railroad
In the end it connected only with the New York and Long Branch, which was a joint Central of New Jersey and Pennsylania property, now New Jersey Transit, but at one time it probably also connected directly with either the PRR or CofNJ or both.
Not quite. The Atlantic Highlands branch was operated by the CNJ until it's demise. I don't believe they had their own motive power anytime in the 20th century.
You've got the right state and the right class one connections. The line in question was definately an independent shortline.
Oh, and Happy New Year!
The Tuckerton Railroad to become the Southern New Jersey Railroad under Salzberg management, and the wye was at Whitings. again, PRR, NJT, and NY&LB.
Mr. Daveklepper, The Tuckerton/Southern Railroad of New Jersey is correct. The TRR served as the bridge between PRR's Camden-Bay Head "main line" at Whiting and the Pennsy's isolated Manahawkin-Beach Haven, Barnaget Beach trackage. Parlor car service was offered in season to Beach Haven until the late 20's. 60mph was permitted on the dash through the pines from Whiting to Manahawkin. PRR's D16sb class were the heaviest permitted on the line and the Tuckerton leased one occasionally when their own power could not fulfill their needs. The 1223 was leased several times during the 1931-1934 period. Interchange with the CNJ was primarily at Whiting during the Tuckerton years but switched to Barnaget after it's rebirth as the SRRofNJ, a Salzberg operation. At this time (1937) the trackage from Whiting to Barnaget was lifted, along with the former PRR island trackage. John Brinckmann wrote an excellant book about this railroad. Another shortline operated the PRR island trackage up to Barnaget Light using a former New York elevated Forney and a self-propelled steam car from the mid 1890's until 1909-ish, afterwhich a PRR engine (D13's were the heaviest permitted north of Ship Bottom) was used. Pennsy just couldn't turn a buck on that branch!
The ball is in your court, Dave!
Back to the New York City system. Prior to the June 1940 Unification, there was only one location where paper transfers was used for free transfer between an elevated line station and the subway station below. Where and why?
Just as a reminder, there were several places where IRT elevated stations were directly above IRT subway stations but no free transfer was offered, ditto on the BMT.
But there was one location where this practise existed.
It was not used very much during rush hours.
Checkinig pre-1940 subway maps should give the answer.
During rush hours, passengers that would use the paper transfers probably did not even see either station, the elevated or the subway station, except on Saturday mornings, possibly. A through service that bypassed the location of the stations was operated during rush hours.
Doesn't anyone have access to a pre-June-1940 NYCity subway map? The answer should be obvious in looking at it. Actually the same situation may have continiued up through about 1949, with the through service durirng rush hours rerouted slightly.
Sea Beach Line and the 5th Avenue El at Atlantic Avenue?
Sorry I missed this for so long, the lack of color change on read threads is annoying.
A good guess, but that was one of your typical instances where a transfer did NOT exist. You were thinking of the fact that rush hours saw subway service on the Culver Line, served on weekends only by the elevated trains on 5th Avenue.(The off-peak weekday service is a matter of some controversy today.) But note, the through Culver subway passengers did certainly see the subway station, if not the elevated station.
The through rush-hour passengers that did not need the paper transfer didn't see either the elevated or the subway station. Keep examining the maps and the answer will just pop out.
The subway station saw two services and still exists with two during normal periods and a variation that runs rush hours. The elevated station saw six services, five just a varition on one, of which three were rush hour and two non-rush-hour only, plus one clearly differrent rush hours service, and the elevated station no longer exists. Thus, the subway station is no longer a major transfer point. After a short distance from the subway station in one direction, the tracks used were originally and temporily used only by elevated trains.
The elevated station originally had only two tracks, then for most of its life had three with two island platforms, the express track used primarily during rush-hours only, and the very heaviest traffic (trains, but not passengers) on the local track opposite the direction of heavy rush-hour passenger use. For some years at the end of its life the elevated station had ony two tracks and a very wide island platform.
The subway station is an important transfer point today to buses, with one bus line possibly replacing the elevated. In that case there are six bus lines at the point, or five if two of the former trolley lines that temrinated there have been through routed. One of those two lines ran into another borough and had the unique operation that one might think would characterixe that operaton. It did not survive as streetcar line until WWII. But there was ahother of the five trolley lines at the point that also operated into another borough and had the same unique operaton. It ran through and did not terminate. Another line ran through, a single borough line, and another terminated. All lines except the one specifically mentioned did last through WWII and two or three years afterward.
Sorry to neglect this, I haven't been on in a while. I'm a little short of time at the moment, so someone else should jump in. A good source for historic subway maps is: http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Historical_Maps.
I recommend the Nostrand-Seamans 1939 map as accurately showing the situation. The 1939 maps of the specific system are in grievous error and are different in this respect than those I remember from the trains themselves.
Apologies.A closer look at the "1939" large and small system maps shows them to be correct, not in error, as applied to the situation of this question. But they are both in error in reputing to be 1939 maps. They are not. They could be 1937 or 1936 mjaps. As an addition to the question, why do I know that they are not 1939 maps? The Nostrand-Seamans map is a 1939 map. Would it has one major error, farf away from the subway and elevatged stations discussed in my question and involving an non-existant physical connection along with ommiting one that did exist.
North West, you posted the map reference, why not study them a bit yourself.
The Nostrand Seamans map is in error in that it shows the subway service on the northern portion of Brooklyn's Myrtle Avenue Elevated to Metropolitan Avenue as coming off the 14th Street-Canarsie line, where no track connection exists, never did exist, and could not exist, because the 14 St. Line is in a subway at the point. There are strairs and elevators or escalators to use in transfering at that point. The subway service, the current "M" line, is now the only service to Metropolitan Avenue, and always came off the Broadway-Brooklyn Elevated, with a connection that is not shown on the Nostrand-Seamans map. I hope North West will look at the 1939 Nostrand-Seamns map and at the two "1939" IRT maps and tell us both what the answer to the question is (or are, one elevated and one subway station at the same geographical location), and why the IRT maps must be before 1939.
It's because the Sixth Avenue El came down in 1939. And Park Place closed in late 1938. 59th Street station, as there was no physical connection?
You are correct about the 6th Avenue elevated, but it closed in 1938, the first of the major New York Citiy elevated abandonments, as discussed in an earlier question, possibly on the other thread. By 59th Street, I am not sure what you are referring to. With relation to basic question, no relation. Study the Nostrand-Seaman map, and the bypass of the transfer point where an elevated crosses a subway line will be obvious. It is also shown on the obviously pre"1939"IRT maps, but it almost takes a magnefying glass to see it. It is an IRT elevated ,providing some thru service along what is normally an IRT sub way line. But, interestingly, the elevated opened the line before the subway was finished. But not by the bypass, because in addition to the bypass, constructed about 1918, there was as long as the elevated existed, and earlier second connection actually between the bypassed station and the subway line, joining the bypass before joining the elevated subway line.
Back to 59th Street. There was no paper transfer between either of the EASt Side north-south elevated lines, 2nd Av. and 3rd Av., and the east-west BMT subway line to Queenborough Plaza under 60th Street. And yes, there was through service on the 2nd Avenue elevated over the Queensboro Bridge to the Plaza and byond to Astoria and one-stop short of Flushing. Not during late nights, however. The whole 2nd Avenue Elevated shut down at night.
Dave:
I must digress a bit and ask about Manhattan Island. What is the most northerly the NYCTA goes on Manhattan and is that known as "Broad Channel"? I heard that term on a "Law and Order" show.
Ed Burns
Technically, the north end of the Kingsbribge, the Broadway Bridge with the upper deck used by the Broadway rapid transit line, IRT line to 242-Van Courtland Park, B'way, can be considered as still in Manhattan, because the Harlem River was literalliy moved south at that point to improve navigation, and the old river channen filled in with dirt from the Broad (new) Channel. This was done in the 19th Century before the first horsecar line and well before the IRT elevated structure for the subway line. That area is the northen most point of Manahttan, considered either south or north of the "new" Harlem River, and the 1 subway line and the M100 bus, replacement for the K streetcar, do the honors for the TA.
But please look at the map and answer the question. I mentioned the two of the streetcar lines went to a different borough than the location of the station and had an unusual operation. A further hint is that one was an east-west line and one a basically north-south line, the latter being bussed before WWII.
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