IGN, you're up.
I have the exact number for Toronto and will post it. Remember it about 730, of which about 550 were new. Some postwar new and one of the two goups of ex-Cleveland were made mu, after delivery and operation without mu control.
Retiring of PCCs in Toronto began after the opening of the Bloor-Danforth subway line.
Pittsburgh cars 1000-1699 (except for 1600) all had the roof hatch. Pittsburgh's first PCC, which was the first production PCC ever, was numbered 100 (later M11) and did not have the roof hatch. Nor did 1600, which was essentially identical to the postwar 1700-1799 except for some wartime shortcuts. The 1500 series was only 65 cars instead of Pittsburgh's usual 100 car order. All built by St. Louis Car, split 75/25 between Westinghouse and GE electrical equipment.
Pittsburgh had the second largest fleet of bought-new PCCs after Chicago. Chicago had 83 prewar and 600 postwar, Pittsburgh had 565 prewar/wartime and 101 postwar (including 1600). Toronto may have ended up with more total since it bought out a bunch of U.S. fleets. 570 of Chicago's postwar cars contributed parts to CTA's fleet of PCC L cars.
The other places that had red cars that I can think of are Los Angeles, the Pacific Electric and Pittsburgh. I don't think PE had that many PCC' s. That leaves Pittsburgh.
It's not Chicago, Boston or Brooklyn. Boston's 300+, Brooklyns 200+ and Chicago's 96 prewar cars were eclipsed by this city's 555. It also got 101 postwar cars (though one was delivered during the war). One of you already mentioned it on the way by, but didn't offer it as the answer.
I did state Chicago before proposing Boston, but somehow I thought this was rejected. It seemed lobical to go along with 2-man operation and a rear entrance. And certinly the Chicago PCCs were the oddest, both prewar and postwar.
Regarding who had the most prewar PCCs: Boston orderred about 300 in total tothe prewar design, ordered before and during the war, but mahy were delivered just after the war through 1946.
RMEI ruled out Pittsburgh Railways because the later PCCs had that full-length 'hump' on the roof, which I'd think would interfere with hatches to get to the poles.
The hatches were only on the pre-war cars, and two of those didn't have them...
Chicago's Washington St. tunnel was used by PCCs up to the end of Madison Street service, no hatches, but Chicago policy required setting the pole from inside the car (using the back window). Chicago PCCs had belt-rail level catchers. The LaSalle tunnel was closed in 1939 due to construction of what is now the Blue Line on Lake Street - due to WWII the new subway wasn't opened until 1950. In 1939 only Madison Street had PCCs (using the Washington tunnel). The Van Buren tunnel was never used by PCCs as far as I know - it was reroute only after about 1924 even though it stayed in service until 1952. The lines for which it was a reasonable reroute never got PCCs.
Chicago for the Washington Street tunnel? (Was there something special about the La Salle tube construction that would call for special PCC design?)
I ruled out Pittsburgh Railways because the later PCCs had that full-length 'hump' on the roof, which I'd think would interfere with hatches to get to the poles.
Interesting that nowhere I could find are the roof hatches or high-mounted catchers described ... and I refused to cheat by asking on any trolley lists. I'd think there would be a reference online somewhere to a configuration this unique.
No points for knowledge -- this isn't my field anyway. And no credit for guessing, so if this turns out right ask another one.
System color were similar to Toronto's... How about this - unlike Toronto, the system with roof hatches never bought a used PCC.
Toronto?
Boston's prewar PCCs do not have hatches. This system had more prewar PCCs than Boston, or any other city. The first car it got didn't have the hatch, and the prototype for the postwar cars, as well as the postwar cars themselves, was hatchless.
Well, I thought I knew a lot aboiu Boston, but passibly it is the Boston system, first the Boston Elevated, then the MTA, and then the MBTA.
There would be a logical reason, since it is somewhat difficult to rewire a pole that has dewired using the rope at the rear when there is another PCC coupled behind. And in a subway tunnel at that. But eventually that is the way it was done, especially since poles rarely dewire in the subway.
The center-entrance cars, which the PCCs replaced in subway service, had roof hatches and reversed trolley poles. The two hatches were above the conductor's positiono in the center of the car.
I don't know if a tunnel was the reason, but the system did (and still does) have a long tunnel.
The system had more prewar PCCs than any other system. Of the prewar and wartime cars, only two lacked the hatch.
Someplace that had operations in a tunnel precluding the ability to get out of the car to change the pole? Kind of like The Tandy subway in Dallas(I think)
Then Chicago, with the idea that the conductor at the rear of the car could reset the pole without exiting the car, after a dewirement.
Both Cincinnati and Washington used the back window or raised the poles from the street. This city's PCCs (but not conventional cars) had the trolley catchers at roof height. If it's not too big a hint it had lots of prewar PCCs. Postwar PCC cars were set up with the catcher at the belt rail.
Cincinnatti, because of the double-pole, double-wired requirement in downtown and adjacent areas, and single-pole operation in some suburbs.
Washington, DC, whcih also needed to raise and lower poles on some lines, with conduit operation downtown and adjacent areas, did not have roof hatches in my memory.
I had the advantage of havong looked at all the maps while trying to answer your earlier question.
There was an alternate all-Southern way to route between Columbia and Atlanta but that would have involved an awkward back-up move in Spartanburg.
New question: This large streetcar sytem had prewar PCCs with roof hatches to raise and lower the trolley poles.
Rob, you found the line. The difficulty with going through Greenville was that the Columbia-Greenville line entered more or less from the south, just as the Washington-Atlanta line left to the south.
I'm sorry to be so late in responding; when I was in Chicago Friday, I was unable to get on line--and I was, of course en route home almost all day yesterday.
Had I not spent a pleasant morning with Carl Shaver in the station Friday, I might have been able to get on line.
Johnny
Working off maps but no timetables I come up with:
Columbia SC - Atlanta GA
Southern Ry - Belton SC - Blue Ridge Ry - Seneca SC - Southern Ry
If it went via Greenville SC - the all Southern Ry route, it would end up facing the wrong direction.
Blue Ridge Ry was eventually merged into the Carolina and Northwestern by Southern.
Deggesty Thanks, Dave. There was a short line in the South that participated in overnight Pullman service between two state capitals; it did not serve either capital, but received a car from a Class 1 and delivered the car to the same Class 1 for arrival in the morning. Had the Class 1 road carried the car all the way, the sleepers who left feet first would have arrived head first. Name the cities, the roads--and why the cars changed direction of travel when handled solely by the Class 1 road. I may be out of touch until lateThursday through Thursday afternoon, when I will be in theWashington station.
Thanks, Dave.
There was a short line in the South that participated in overnight Pullman service between two state capitals; it did not serve either capital, but received a car from a Class 1 and delivered the car to the same Class 1 for arrival in the morning. Had the Class 1 road carried the car all the way, the sleepers who left feet first would have arrived head first. Name the cities, the roads--and why the cars changed direction of travel when handled solely by the Class 1 road.
I may be out of touch until lateThursday through Thursday afternoon, when I will be in theWashington station.
I learned at supper tonight that my cousin and her husband (whom I am visiting) have Wi-fi so I am able to be on line in King George, Va.
If Diggesty has a question ready, I am all for it. If he wishes me to ask one, I will do my best to come up with one quickly.
And if not thru Pullmans, just connecting service.
I should point out that at least on some Wabash timetables the times for through Pullmans to New York via either the Lackawanna or the Lehigh Valley were shown, posssibly even via the NYCentral, and possibly a through Pullman to Boston via the Central. This was probably all before WWII, probably not the 1960's. But maybe.
At least in the 60s they didn't show the Alaska steamships, but they did show all of the West Coast ports. You guys decide who gets the next turn.
Wabash passenger timetable showed all through .service from St. Louis via Kansas Citiy and the UP to the Pacific coast, and showed the UP connecting trains to Los Angelels, Oakland/Sann Francisco, and Portlalnd with the connections to Seattle. Possibly the showed connecting steamer service to Ancorage, Alaska.
The western city I'm looking for is a lot further west than Omaha. Buffalo is correct for the eastern end. If it helps the train the western city is listed for only ran on the Wabash for part of the trip.
The Wabash served Omaha and Detroit. I am working strictly from memory. At one time, I believe that it did have passenger serice into Buffalo, but I am not sure.
I'll throw another OG question out. Until the Wabash was leased by the N&W in 1964, these were the easternmost and westernmost cities listed in its timetables.
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