I have the answer: Itg\ was an ERROR. Timetables occasionally do have errors, and the fact that it was changed at the next edition indicates it was probably an error.
No, Dave, I do not believe that it was a mistake. I do not have any Southern timetables between the September, 1936, and the January, 1938, issues, so I do not know when the change was made. I do have a November, 1937, Guide, and it shows the Markwald station without any stop and does not show the Barnett station, so the change was made between September, 1936, and November, 1937. The Guide listing does not give origins and terminations of diners operated by the Southern.
I still believe that Table 86 in both of the mentioned timetables shows where diners were to added or taken off.
Johnny
Was there a manned agency passenger station (manned at train time) at that point?
Since no passenger train was scheduled to stop there, I doubt that there was a passenger station there. There may well have been a freight agent there; if the diner was exchanged there there had to be a siding there.
Rob, do you have a question for this thread?
I'm going to yield to Dave for his question about Indianapolis Traction Terminal.
Dave, we're anxious to see your question about the Indy Traction Terminal.
Mark
KCS Fan:
My name is Ed Burns and a retired NP-BN-BNSF clerk from Minneapolis, MN. I thought you might some additional information about the C&S and the FWD.
Even though the C&S and FWD were part of the newly created BN, they operated as separate railroads on paper until about 1981. When we keypunched COMPASS waybills for, say, station number 40000, Galveston, TX. we had to use 40000, Galveston TX on the main IBM card and then use second IBM card for a routing of "BN -DENVR-CS-SIXSEL(A) FWD in order for the waybill to be accepted into the COMPASS system. In the late 1970's the BN purchased many jumbo covered hoppers. The CS series was 458000 and the FWD series was 459000. The newly formed BN was using FWD and CS marking cars as their own UNTIL the AAR got wind of it. They the BN had to request an exemption from the AAR in order to use CS and FWD marked cars as their own. Just an example of red tape. Some SD40-S's were sublettered CS. All this went away abut 1981 or so when the C&S and FWD were formally integrated into the BN system.
In the latter 1920's five interurban lines entered Indianapolis. Which ones used the Traction Terminal and which did not. What were the end-points of each of the routes from Indianapolis owned by each of the five. What were the end-point destinations of the passenger rolling stock of each of the five (not necessarily the same as the end of the owned trackage). And who owned the traction terminal. And which of the routes was the very last interurban line to operate out of Indianapolis and who operated it?
No takers yet? Too involved a question? OK, multiple choice:
1. I recommend one available text where all the information can be found.
2. I reduce the complexity of the question. In that case, which question should be asked? Just the last two? Or the first and second?
What would you like?
It's a bit complex but I'll try to answer at least parts of the question.
Four of the interurbans operating out of Indy were: 1) Union Traction whose principal lines went to Logansport, Wabash and Bluffton, 2) Interstate Public Service which ran to Louisville, 2) Terre Haute Indianapolis & Eastern which had lines to Terre Haute, Lafayette and Richmond and 4) Indianapolis & Cincinnati Traction which ran to Connersville and Greenburg. I don't know the fifth interurban nor do I know which ones used the Traction Terminal. I'll hazard a guess and say that all did but the Indy & Cincy Traction.
I believe the Traction Terminal was owned by Sam Insull's Midland Utilities Corp. The last to operate out of Indy was the Interstate PS route which had been cut back to Seymour and no longer served Louisville.
I was out of town the last four days..
Before I even try this there was a map of the Traction Terminal trackage in First and Fastest magazine about two years ago that looks like it was drawn by a berserk model railroader.
I'll answer the last question first. Not counting the bus companies that used the paved-over track space, the last usage was the Indiana Service Corp.'s run to Seymour using a pair of IRR high-speeds. That lasted about six months after IRR quit. ISC's traction operation were part of the Indiana Railroad, and had historically operated under the Interstate name.
Without checking my library, I come up with:
Terre Haute Indianapolis and Eastern
West: Terre Haute, Paris IL
East Richmond IN, through cars to Dayton OH
Interstate: Louisville KY (operated sleepers)
Union Traction: Anderson, Muncie. Through freight to Lima OH.
Indiana Service Corp: Lines north (Marion?) and northwest.
I think the Indianapolis, Columbus and SE was a non-user.
YOur on your way, but the Indianapolis Cincinnati and Southeaster did use the traction terminal. So you are missing one company, and that is the company that did not use the Traction Terminal. Hint: For good reason, some did not consider it an interurban but a purely suburban operation, but it considered itself an interurban and was so legally. Union? Through freight not only to Lima, but also to Detroit. But what about passenger cars?
Interstate owned only to Seymore but ran cars to Louisville. Do you know the owner Seymore - Louisville. And the last interuban runs to Seynore did not use the traction terminal and were one each direction daily --- after Indiana quit.
Check your library and come back with the corrctions. You are the winner anyway.
Dave, when you say "you are the winner anyway" are you referring to me or rcdrye?
Mark, please take it.
Thank you Rob.
For a time one of two crack heavyweight trains literally ran on the markers of the other one for a distance of several hundred miles. One train left an intermediate terminal and arrived at its end point terminal just five minutes ahead of the other. Both trains made the same station stops over this part of their route and their time cards show both stopping at one station at exactly the same time. What trains were these and over what route did this close interval running occur?
El Cap and Super Chief, AT&SF, Chi-LA
And please let us have the full story from the researdh in your library. Still open is the company not named and not ever using the traction terminal. Also, the story of the last "ghost" operation is worth telling to our readers. Or do you insist I do it?
daveklepper El Cap and Super Chief, AT&SF, Chi-LA
No, Dave, they were not Santa Fe trains.
daveklepper And please let us have the full story from the researdh in your library. Still open is the company not named and not ever using the traction terminal. Also, the story of the last "ghost" operation is worth telling to our readers. Or do you insist I do it?
I haven't had a chance to look at the books on Indianapolis yet. I'll post a new topic in a day or so so we don't plug up the forum.
Thanks, In addition to the El Capitan and Super Chief in both directions, Chicago - Los Angeles
Westbound, only sometimes eastbound, the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited, Chicago - Twin Cities on the CB&Q Also the Mainstreater and Western Star, although they were combined earlier and may never have run separately on the CB&Q.
Ditto, City of Los Angelels, City of San Francisco, Chicago - Omaha - Green River, sometimes Ogden, C&NW and UP Possibly the Fortyniner and Challenger.
The best example is:
The East Coast Champion and the Silver Meteor, NY - Richmond (separate stations most most years in Richmond), NY-Washington DC - Richmond, PRR and RF&P. Possibly the best example because they were never combined.
daveklepper Thanks, In addition to the El Capitan and Super Chief in both directions, Chicago - Los Angeles Westbound, only sometimes eastbound, the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited, Chicago - Twin Cities on the CB&Q Also the Mainstreater and Western Star, although they were combined earlier and may never have run separately on the CB&Q. Ditto, City of Los Angelels, City of San Francisco, Chicago - Omaha - Green River, sometimes Ogden, C&NW and UP Possibly the Fortyniner and Challenger. The best example is: The East Coast Champion and the Silver Meteor, NY - Richmond (separate stations most most years in Richmond), NY-Washington DC - Richmond, PRR and RF&P. Possibly the best example because they were never combined.
Dave, the El Capitan, Cities of LA and SF, Silver Meteor and Champion were lightweight streamliners and therefor aren't eliogible answers since the question specified heavyweight trains. You did however mention the North Coast Ltd and Empire Builder which are correct. Eastbound over the Burlington the EB left Minneapolis and arrived in Chicago just five minutes ahead of the NCL. The next question is yours.
There are very few double-end PCC cars (using the "real" PCC technology and not modern mostly Czeck upgrades) operating in the World in regular passenger service, but they are operating in two cities, worldwide. Name the two cities . If you can provide details about the cars, do so.
You are right about what was lightweight in the lists I gave, but the Silver Meteor and Eat Coast Champion did have sort of predicessors with the Orange Blossom Special and the original Florida Special which did the same thing on the PRR and RF&P. I should have listed them instead of the streamliners, apologies.
I was aware of the heavyweight operation of the North Coast Limited and the Empire Builder when I posted that answer . As a youngster I got a big color picture book of famous trains, about 1938 or 1939. The Broadway and 20th Century were pictured as streamlined, but the NCL and EB were pictured as steam-hauled heavywights in spectacular scenery. The Congressional was behind a GG-1, and the Merechants Limited a heavyweight behind a box-cab electric, either EP-2 or EP-3. I think the streamlined Daylight was in it, and of course the Silver Meteor. But the ACL entry was the heavywieght Florida Special. The Southern's was the heavyweight Crescent with a green and gold PS-4. The Empire State Express was also in it, as a heavyweight behind a non-streamlined J-3A.
San Francisco has several cars built for Muni in 1948 running on the Market Street Railway. Ghent Belgium had some not too long ago. The Muni cars are painted in several Muni schemes, as well as Market Street Railway (which never had PCCs), Illinois Terminal, Philadelphia Suburban Transportation (whose own double-enders had interurban trucks) and Dallas Texas, which had the only all-double-ended fleet. One of the Muni cars is painted as a Muni prewar "Magic Carpet" car, a PCC-style body with different motors and controls.
You are correct, Ghent and SF. Philly Suburban's cars, although PCC-style bodies, were not PCC's. In addition to MCB-type drop-equalizer trucks with steel, non-resilient wheels, they had conventional cam swtiched resister bank control with hand controls like contemporary rapid transit cars. Except for the bodies, there was zero PCC technology on them. Several survive at museums. Ghent's are also still operating and remain PCC's although bodies are somewhat modified from the original European standard. They are supplemented by modern articulated cars, some of which migrate to the Coastal Tram for summer tourist season use.
Illinois Terminal and Pacific Electric also had all-double-end PCC fleets. But PE's were double-end Peter-Witts. Both PE and IT had mu capability. IT's was the smallest fleet, only ten cars, used in Granit City suburban service. When the rebuilding program is done, MUNI will have at least seven of the original double enders running, and this will allow opening the E Line, Embarcadaro - Third Street, as least as far as the CalTran station, sharing Embarcadaro with the existing F heritage line.
The next question is yours.
Ths streetcar line ran directly under an elevated rapid transit line for 6.5 miles, crossing the rt line before reaching its endpoint.
Rob, would that be the CSL's 63rd St. Car line?
Right city, wrong line. 63rd street ran under the Jackson Park branch for about 1.25 miles from just east of Prairie Ave to Stony Island Ave. The Englewood line parallelled 63rd but wasn't over the street. The 63rd street line crossed below it near the Harvard station.
For Chicago, Lake Street. Ran under the elevated structure, then in the western part of the route, the elevated operated with poles on the surface next to Lake Street, not on the Northwestern embankment as at present, and I think there was a grade crossing near the end of the line, but my memory is pretty dim on that.
In Manhattan and Brooklyn, there were of course many long streetcar lines that ran under the elevateds for more than 6.5 miles, Third Avenue being one of the last, until March 1947, all the way from Chatham Square to 125th Street, regular service, or 129th Street, carbarn pullins and pullouts, about eight miles in all. The Third Avenue Elevated did have a grade crossing with a streetcar line, but not Third Avenue Railways Third Avenue Line. Lexington Avenue (for 98 years with its underground subway) was brought into being after the Metropolitan Elevated Railway had constructed their main shops between 3rd and Park Avenues, 99th-100th Streets, and the new Avenue split the shops in half. A track connection remained between the two halves, and it was coast-through without third rail after the 1901 electrication. And New York Railways conduit ex-horsecar streetcar line had a grade crossing with the elevated's at grade shop connection track. No interruption in the slot-conduit electricals. That streetcar was bussed in 1936, 10 years after General Motors bought New York Railways.
Lake St. which Dave has mentioned may be correct. In the event is isn't however, I'll say Milwaukee Ave.
Lake St. is correct - Also State-Lake (Through route 16). It ran under the Lake Street L from State (0W) to Laramie (5200W) which is 6.5 miles. After a few blocks of open air street running on Lake Street, right next to the now ground level Lake Street L, it turned on Pine Avenue to cross the CRT at grade, duck under the C&NW embankment the L runs on now, and resume running west on Lake to Austin. Converted to bus in 1954.
Just to illustrate how tight the clearances were, CTA ordered several series of 96" wide buses (standard width was 102") just for Lake Street.
Milwaukee Avenue parallels the Logan Square branch of the CRT (now Blue Line) about a half block away.
Dave, you are up.
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