rcdryeWhich North American city had PCC cars with more than one power collection system?
Washington DC had cars with conduit and poles. They were also shorter than standard PCCs.
NW is correct and got there first. But there is a second answer: Cincinnati. Used two poles trolleybus style to avoid telephone interference downtown, by city law, but switched to one pole with standard ground return in the sububs. Washington's PCC's could lower and raise poles without the operator leaving his seat. Cincinnati required pole pulling. So did some of Washington's older cars.
At one time Washington had two-pole operation on outlying lines - pre-PCC of course.
If TARS had been more wealthy, we might have seen conduit PCCs in NYC as well.
Another PCC question. Two companies received double ended PCC lookalikes, but were not technically PCCs because of the ERPCC not receiving royalties. Which two companies?
Red Arrow, postwar St. Louis cars with PCC bodies and non-PCC outside-famed trucks and cam control equipment. The "Magic Carpet" cars of San Francisco's MUNI. All of these were double-end without standee windows, the latter pre-WWII. Somewhat PCC-ish were the 10 Brill and 10 St. Louis single-end modern cars bought by Capitol Transit around 1934. The one preserved was denied its perpertuity by the tragic fire at the National Capitol Trolley Museum which also took the Silver Sighseer air-conditioned PCC from us.
Good job Dave!
All yours.
Name two subway tunnel locations with tracks first exclusively used by gate-cars, open platform wood or wood and steel elevated cars. One soon saw steel cars, then steel cars exclusively, and is in use as part of the rapid-transit system today, and the other was considered for a new subway connection after its elevated line was abandoned but had a specific limitation that has resulted in its portals plugged and its abandonment, possibly only temporarily, although it has been that way for a very long time, about as long as it actually saw rapid transit service. But it did eventually see steel cars before abandonment, and it is really a matter of definition as to whether or not they should be called subway cars in that service.
If you know what the proposed subway connection was and the reason the tunnel(s) could not be used, that is a bonus. But naming the two locations is sufficient for the answer. One is not sufficient.
Also a bonus: What were the FIRST steel cars used in the tunnel used today?
Also a bonus: Wha t were the steel cars used in the abandoned tunnel location and why is it a matter of definition as to whether they should be called subway or elevated cars?
One of these tunnels, the one still in use today, included a subway station opened a year BEFORE the opening of "New Yorik City's First Subway" and is still in use today. The other tunnel was never used by "real" subway trains, but did see trains as long as seven cars as long as open-platform cars were used. The last service saw steel ex-subway cars that were re-equipped with gravity elevated-type shoes in two-car trains. It is not in use, has been out of use longer than it was in use, and was opened about twelve years after the other tunnel.
Do you need further hints?
1. The plugged and abandoned tunnel is the former 9th Ave El tunnel from Segwick Avenue to Jerome Avenue. Because it was built to elevated clearances, subway third rail won't fit, so it can't be connected to the Lenox Avenue IRT line. First steel cars were Lo-Vs, but with elevated pickup shoes. So that is why they can be considered elevated cars.
2. The Williamsburg Bridge line had a terminal at Delancy Street, which saw BMT elevated trains. The line was later extended west, and converted to subway operation. The first cars were the A-B steels?
Northwest, you can ask the next question. If it had not been for the clearance problem, the tunnels would have been used for a connection between the Lenox Avenue Line and the Jerome Avenu Line.
The first steel cars to visit Essex Street were built before the steels and visited before the BMT steels. By the time the BMT steels were built and the initial service on Sea Beach began with them, the service for which the first steel cars that visited Essex had been discontinued folr about three years. So there was a gap of about three years without steel cars at Essex Street. The first steel cars ran there only in summer. And the service had alternating trains of wood cars and trains of steel cars.
This tunnel was originally intended to connect the Long Island railroad with the New York Central and Hudson River, but sat unused for several years before becoming used for a different type of train.
Must be a stub tunnel west of penn station extended by Amtrak and used by all Empire Service trains and the Lake Shore and today's Maple Leaf and Adarondak.
nw, can you try your hand on the other question?
A hint:
The tunnel began excavation before the PRR purchased the LIRR.
I'll try on the other question.
Possibly in connenction with the start of NYCentral GCD-GCT electrification, a tunnel was begun from Prk Avenue east toward the East River, and it was incorporated into one of the subway tunnels under the East River, either the 53rd Street used by E and V (formerly the F), 60th Street used by the N and R, or the 63rd St. used by F currently, formerly the Q. I know it was the 42nd Street tunnel, which was originalliy built for Stineway Lines streetcars and then converted by August Belmont for IRT use.
Dave gets it, the Steinway/Belmont tunnel, now part of the IRT Flushing Line on the 7.
Your question.
I'll ask the next question after you answer the rapid transit on railroad question I asked siince you know more details about four of the cases (three on one railroad, one on another) than I do and should have answered the question by now!
Name the specific elevated structures, used by elevated trains, that were taken out of service upon unification of the three rapid transit systems by New York City in June 1940, and what structures remained in service, service then used by elevated trains, and which are still in service today, now used by subway trains.. You need not name structures used by subway trains if they were used by subway trains before unification.
What elevated line structures saw INCREASED service with elevated trains after unification and why?
daveklepperName the specific elevated structures, used by elevated trains, that were taken out of service upon unification of the three rapid transit systems by New York City in June 1940,
IRT:
9th Avenue El, except for the Polo Grounds section (recently discussed on the other thread)
2nd Avenue El north of 59th Street.
BMT:
5th/3rd Avenue El
Fulton Street El (Fulton Ferry-Rockaway Avenue section)
daveklepper, and what structures remained in service,
2nd Avenue El, Queensborough Bridge to Chatham Square.
3rd Avenue El
Fulton Street El (Rockaway Avenue-Lefferts Avenue/119th Street
Lexington Avenue El
Myrtle Avenue Line
daveklepperWhat elevated line structures saw INCREASED service with elevated trains after unification and why?
The Third Avenue El, because of the lack of other services other than the Lexington Avenue Line?
You got it right. The 2nd Avenue City Hall - Freeman Street Express service was diverted to 3rd Avenue. This meant that against the current of rush hours traffic, with most expresses returning as light trains on the local track, the reverse direction local track traffic was 55 trains/per hour. So the local tracks remained non-signalled, with trains proceeding on line of sight.
You have one more question to answer, and I am confident you can; What elevated structures used only be elevated trains before unification remain and are in subway service today?
daveklepperWhat elevated structures used only be elevated trains before unification remain and are in subway service today?
BMT/IRT Astoria Line
IND/BMT Culver Line Ditmas Avenue-Coney Island
BMT Fulton Line from Rockaway Ave to Lefferts Avenue
Parts of the BMT Brighton, West End, and Franklin Lines
BMT Myrtle Avenue Line north of Myrtle Avenue
I do have to hand it to you, for a non-native New Yorker, you do know where elevated trains ran on existing structures, but the really correct answer is none. Here is why:
On the BMT/IRT Astoria Line, before unification, 2nd Ave El train ran and continued for two more years, and the BMT service was wiith the Q-types, wood elevated cars modernized with sliding doors and e nclosed ends, but still el cars, that continued to run there until aroud 1949, when BNT steels running through took over all service, with the IRT getting all service on the Flushihg Line. But IRT subway cars from Times Square ran there before unification, and continiued until 1949.
Culver Line. Before unification most service was indeed by el cars, from Park Row via the Brooklyn Bridge and the 5th Avenue elevated, and after unification, el cars contiued giving 9th Avenue - Coney Isbeland rush hour serivce. But before and after unification there were steel Culver Expresses during rush hours from Kings Highway 'via Bridge through Nassau Loop and via Tunnel to Brooklyn." After unification, non-rush hour service was from Chambers Street via Tunnel to Coney Island with steel cars.
BMT Rockaway to Lefferts. This was the one I was looking for. But I forgot. In addition to Fulton Street elevated trains, from Park Row Manhattan over the Brooklyn Bridge, and cut-backk service from Sands Street to Lefferts, after 1936 there were rush hours "Multi" trains of the articulated five bodies on six truck lighweight trains, three 5-unit cars, from 14th Street and 8th Avenue to Lefferts. This rush hours steel train service continued until the A train began running to Lefferts.
BMT Brighton elevaed trains stopped running when the line was diverted via subway to the Manhattan Bridge and Montague Street Tunnel. The Franklin Shuttle had run with steel trains for many years, and beginning n 1938 was the usual location for the Budd "Little Zepher." The elevated structure of the West End line never saw elevated trains in regular service, since the steels replaced the gate cars when the surface tracks were exclusively a trolley line and subway service began on the elevated structure. The exception was Bay Parkway - Coney Isla nd, because during rush hours the subway trains were cut back at Bay Parkway "because of a shortage of steel cars" and elevated gate cars with special green paint and subway shoes ran Bay Parkway - Coney Island, before and after unification.
The Myrtle Avenue elevated was the last stronghold of gate cars, and then the Q-types well after WWII, BUT after 1921 a weekday Chambers Street - Metropolitan Avenue service began using steel cars.
So the real answer is NONE. All had steel train service of one sort or another. But I had forgotton about 8th Avenue - Lefferts and Chambers Street - Metropolitan Avenue when I asked the question. The next one is yours to ask.
Oh yes, Lexington Avenue el also saw an increase in service. Normal operation for this el was Brooklyn Bridge to Atlantic Avenue. Before unification many rush hour trains ran to 118th Street on the Jamaica line. This continiued after unification. But after unification weekday normal wervice was extended from Atlantic Avenue to Grant Avene on the Fulton Street line, to cater to people who did not wish to change to the subway at Rockaway Avenue to go to downtown Brooklyn. During rush hours Lexington el trains ran to 118th Street, Grant Avenue, and Lefferts Avenue. Sunday and night service was only to Eastern Parkway, East New York, before and after unification.
This proposed major expansion to the NYC Subway system was canceled, but in five locations provisions for stations were built into in service stations. In one case a complete set of trackways and platforms was built. What was the name of this expansion?
The original conception for the 2nd Avenue Subway, with provisions at Houston-Lafayette and Houston-2nd Avenue, Fulton-Broadway-Nassau, Chrystie-Grand St., and 63rd and Lexington, the latter brought into use. I believe this expansion will occur eventually.
The Second Avenue Subway was part of this plan, put forward in 1929.
(I had forgotten about the partially built sections of the Second Avenue Subway dating from the 1970s, which are not part of this question due to the 50 year rule. Dave has the earlier provisions right. There should be five more, apologies for the mix up.)
I do not remember the name of the 1929 plan, but in addtion to just about all existing routes of the IND subway, and the new and projected Second Avenue subway, there was proposed, if I remember correctly, an express subway under Central Park connecting to the BMT Broadway subway, and the provisions for this were incorporated into the 63rd Street route used by the Q when it ran to Queens before the 63rd St. route was connected to the Queens Blvd subway with the F replacing the Q. The Q will return when that part of the 2nd Av. subway now under construction is open. But I may be mistaken and it was to be connected to the 6th Avenue subway, with the same kind of use for 63rd Street realized (F). The plan also had the Concourse Line continueing east from 205th, and the exteded tunnel all the way to Webster Avenue was built with this in mind. And in Brooklyn, takeover by the A-train of the Liberty Avenue el structure from Fulton elevated trains was not part of the plan, and in addition to Pitkin Yard, a four-track tunnel continues quite far to to the east of Euclid Avenue station. This tunnel and that in service to Euclid Avenue were built before WWII, and tracks actually installed well past Eastern Parkway East New York station, with East New York the four-track two-platform station that you may be referring to. But instead of extending service beyond Rockway Avenue, the track installed was "mined" for replacement rail during WWII and had to be reinstalled, extending A service to ENY and then to Euclid. The plan also had a subway to the Rockaways, not taking over the LIRR over-the-bay route, but coming off the Queens Blvd iLine, with stub tunneling still visible east of Woodhaven Blvd. Finally, there was the Ditmas-Church Macdonald Avenue ramp, finally opened by the D and then and now used by the F. The original plan was for a subway to replace the elevated structure, and unused tunneling, which may have been filled, exists under the ramp. Finally, the transit lanes on the George Washingon Bridge, with the tunnel norh from 168th Street Station.and its small yard.
Dave, you got it. The name you are searching for is "IND Second System". I've found a detailed account here, some of which I hadn't remembered. Life could have been far different if it was built.
When the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA) took over operations oof the Chicago Rapid Transit System (CRT or the "L") the system was different that what we have today:
What elevated structures have been removed and what (where applicable) new construction replaced them?
What structures remained and what changes in servies on them have occurred?
Whar new construction has occured and what services are on them?
What structures had service removed and then restored and why?
daveklepper When the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA) took over operations oof the Chicago Rapid Transit System (CRT or the "L") the system was different that what we have today: What elevated structures have been removed and what (where applicable) new construction replaced them? What structures remained and what changes in servies on them have occurred? Whar new construction has occured and what services are on them? What structures had service removed and then restored and why?
This is just an overview. There are plenty of thing that don't fit our over 50 year window.
1) structures removed:
Met Main line Tower 8 (Van Buren/Wells) to Marhfield Ave, including the Wells St Terminal used by Met and CA&E trains. Replaced by Congress Line and Paulina Ramp, now part of CTA Blue Line
Met Garfield Park line from Marshfield Ave west to Lavergne Avenue (One block east of Laramie). Replaced by CTA Congress Line, now Blue Line
Met Logan Square line between Washington Blvd near Paulina and Milwaukee/Evergreen. More or less replaced by Dearborn/Milwaukee Subway - tracks and el structure in place until 1966, bridge over C&NW/Milw is still in place.
Met Humboldt Park Branch from Milwaukee/Damen to North/Lawndale
South Side Stock Yards Branch
South Side Kenwood Branch from CR&I to 42nd Place
South Side Jackson Park branch (Green Line) from Cottage Grove to Jackson Park (removed 1995)
South Side Normal Park Branch
South Side Congress Terminal
Lake St. Market Terminal
North Side Water St. Terminal
2) Changes in Service
North Side reduced from 4 to 2 tracks from Chicago to Armitage
CNS&M service ended
CA&E service ended
Lake St end of street level operation west of Laramie.
3) New construction (less than 50 years old)
Dan Ryan Line (1969) including new structure from 14th to Cermak. Lake through routed 1969, Howard in 1993 (Red Line). Some 1969 L structure to non-revenue (1993)
Jefferson Park extension (1970), further extensions to Rosemont and O'Hare by 1993 - no L structure except Logan Square ramp. Blue Line
Englewood (Green Line, former North-South) from Loomis to Ashland 1968
Paulina Connector from Washington near Paulina to Lake St. Line east of Paulina (1954). Temporary connector for Douglas Park, later used for non-revenue moves. In service for Pink Line (2005).
Orange Line from 18th st to Midway Airport 1993.
4) Service removed and restored
Met Logan Square Branch Marshfield to junction with Paulina Connector. In use 1955-1958 for Douglas Park reroute to Loop. Out of service except for special moves 1958. In service as Pink Line today.
One minor issue, the Douglas Park re-route to the Loop while the Congress Line was being built was basically the same route as the newly established Pink Line. It did not operate north of Lake Street.
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter