Why did you bring up highways when it is rail service I am looking into? Kansas City and Fort Smith are both on Kansas City Southern's Heavener Subdivision. Springfield and Tulsa are both on B.N.S.F.'s Cherokee Subdivision. Kansas City and Forth Smith are both on Interstate 49. Springfield and Tulsa are both on Interstate 44.
Morgan LeFay Backshop A couple of problems with the OP. 1. It seems like he wants to bring passenger service back to a smaller town, not one of the cities around it. That seems backwards. 2. Until he tells us where he's actually from, we can't give any concrete suggestions. 1. She. 2. How is providing passenger service to small towns backward. 3. I want to connect Kansas City, Missouri to Fayetteville or Fort Smith, Arkansas. I also want to connect Tulsa, Oklahoma to Springfield, Missouri.
Backshop A couple of problems with the OP. 1. It seems like he wants to bring passenger service back to a smaller town, not one of the cities around it. That seems backwards. 2. Until he tells us where he's actually from, we can't give any concrete suggestions.
A couple of problems with the OP.
1. It seems like he wants to bring passenger service back to a smaller town, not one of the cities around it. That seems backwards.
2. Until he tells us where he's actually from, we can't give any concrete suggestions.
1. She.
2. How is providing passenger service to small towns backward.
3. I want to connect Kansas City, Missouri to Fayetteville or Fort Smith, Arkansas.
I also want to connect Tulsa, Oklahoma to Springfield, Missouri.
Connecting Tulsa with Springfield would use the former Frisco Rwy. Now owned by BNSF. I think the Texas Special ran on this route a long time ago.
Connecting KC with Fort Smith would probably use Union Pacific. Fayettville would be tougher. It does have the university there. The Frisco had a line south from Monett, Mo. through there to Fort Smith. Also Walmart HQ is in Bentonville near the route. Kansas City Southern has a more direct line from KC, but the route passes some miles west of each of the towns. KCS ran its Southern Belle on that route. It's probably best to start with where people are traveling and would want to travel, and to see if passenger trains can be used effectively to serve their need and want.
Morgan LeFay1. She. 2. How is providing passenger service to small towns backward. 3. I want to connect Kansas City, Missouri to Fayetteville or Fort Smith, Arkansas. I also want to connect Tulsa, Oklahoma to Springfield, Missouri.
There is already interest in resurrecting passenger service to Tulsa but from OKC vs another direction. I think the other towns might be too small for the distance. Your proposal on paying for the track maintenence would be very, very expensive compared to whatever you would bring in at the farebox. So you would lose money every year. Remember that rail maintence includes payment of property taxes in addition to property taxes on any remaining ancillary buildings like old depots, sheds, etc.
If you were oriented more towards a corridor of say OKC to Tulsa you would have much better results. Even KC to Omaha might generate a lot of interest.
So many of our posters keep concentrating on end to end points for passenger service. That is not the metrics of most routes , Evem the Capitol Limited carries less than 1/2 of its passengers WASH <> CHI I t is listed as the highest end to end %,
Solutions for the tax situation would be having all improvements exempt from property tax and a quick 100% investment tax credit ! Stations and other ancillary items for passenger would also take a big property tax decrease. Track maintenance also a quick 50% OR exemption.
all these exemptions would pass thru at 80% to lower Amtrak operating expenses ! Imagine passenger required PTC costs passing thru !
blue streak 1So many of our posters keep concentrating on end to end points for passenger service. That is not the metrics of most routes , Evem the Capitol Limited carries less than 1/2 of its passengers WASH <> CHI I t is listed as the highest end to end %,
Every passenger run needs to have a origin and a destination. While the intermediate traffic may be heaviest beween Elkhart and Harpers Ferry, those points are no adequate origin's or destination's. So the Capitol runs from Chicago to Washington DC. Intermediate traffic sustains all Amtrak runs except Auto Train.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
blue streak 1So many of our posters keep concentrating on end to end points for passenger service. That is not the metrics of most routes , Evem the Capitol Limited carries less than 1/2 of its passengers WASH <> CHI I t is listed as the highest end to end %, Solutions for the tax situation would be having all improvements exempt from property tax and a quick 100% investment tax credit ! Stations and other ancillary items for passenger would also take a big property tax decrease. Track maintenance also a quick 50% OR exemption. all these exemptions would pass thru at 80% to lower Amtrak operating expenses ! Imagine passenger required PTC costs passing thru !
One problem I see with that is your going to have problems finding decent maintenence and operating people in say Smashed Buffalo, WY (or willing to live there) for the trainsets that layover. Also, population density does play a role in ridership.
Also, I understand the Amtrak model is all we have right now but as MNDot pointed out very vividly in their second frequency to the Twin Cities rail study (ie: West Milwaukee Station located in Pewaukee, WI). Amtrak has not really moved a train station since it was founded and has not done any real demographic analysis if it's current train stations are located in areas that would attract the most traffic.
Every single quarter in the United States the Army Recruiting Command does a demographic analysis of where it's Recruiting Stations are located in order to access the most High School Kids and makes adjustments accordingly (moves the physical Recruiting Station if it is not in an optimal area).
General Motors does the same thing with car dealerships but less frequently but also encourages them with financial incentives to move into new areas that offer them more of the Market as an opportunity. If they refuse to move then GM has the option to drop them as a franchisee and find someone else.
Hence, the Amtrak Model on stations and ridership might not be the optimal one to follow. It's a dated model from the 1920's and 1930's.
BaltACD blue streak 1 So many of our posters keep concentrating on end to end points for passenger service. That is not the metrics of most routes , Evem the Capitol Limited carries less than 1/2 of its passengers WASH <> CHI I t is listed as the highest end to end %, Every passenger run needs to have a origin and a destination. While the intermediate traffic may be heaviest beween Elkhart and Harpers Ferry, those points are no adequate origin's or destination's. So the Capitol runs from Chicago to Washington DC. Intermediate traffic sustains all Amtrak runs except Auto Train.
blue streak 1 So many of our posters keep concentrating on end to end points for passenger service. That is not the metrics of most routes , Evem the Capitol Limited carries less than 1/2 of its passengers WASH <> CHI I t is listed as the highest end to end %,
I see that my post is causing some confusion. Am not proposing that trains make small cities a destination. The point is that most persons traveling on Amtrak do not go end to end on any train's full route. Now of course there are certain city pairs that carry more than others. A prime example is the NEC ( NYP - ALX stations ) to Atlanta .
But we cannot say for example that only the NYP - CHI passengers are important. The Erie - Utica passenger is just as important. And there may be a CHI - Erie passenger and a Utica - NYP passenger as well.
Don't forget, everybody: They're bringing back coal, which means they are bringing back steam, which means they are bringing back passenger service!
PROGRESS!
Shock Control Don't forget, everybody: They're bringing back coal, which means they are bringing back steam, which means they are bringing back passenger service! PROGRESS!
How is this for progress:
Morgan LeFayHow is this for progress:
Individual vehicle operators control their own destiny.
BaltACD Morgan LeFay How is this for progress: Individual vehicle operators control their own destiny.
Morgan LeFay How is this for progress:
It's more of muh automobile. Traffic jams are not control of ones's destiny. Car financing and maintenance are not control. Neither are car accidents caused by other people. If the middle-east wants to cut us off oil, that would not be controlling destiny.
Cars contribute to air pollution worse than train and roads make awful usage of land. Railroad tracks have much higher carrying capacity.
Morgan LeFay BaltACD Morgan LeFay How is this for progress: Individual vehicle operators control their own destiny. It's more of muh automobile. Traffic jams are not control of ones's destiny. Car financing and maintenance are not control. Neither are car accidents caused by other people. If the middle-east wants to cut us off oil, that would not be controlling destiny. Cars contribute to air pollution worse than train and roads make awful usage of land. Railroad tracks have much higher carrying capacity.
Morgan LeFay How is this for progress: Individual vehicle operators control their own destiny.
While railroad tracks may have a higher carrying capacity between specified O-D pairs. The O-D pair are not from the person's home to the person's intended destination. Motor vehicles take one from their home (which can be virtually anywhere) to their destination (which can also be virtually anywhere). Train go from station to station - you may not be at a station and then you can't go anywhere until you somehow get to a station.
With one's 'local knowledge' on has a opportunity to circumnavigate traffic jams. Financing and maintenance are directly under the control of the vehicle owner - cash in full - auto loan - vehicle lease. If you are a dumb and cheap owner/operator just run the vehicle until it stops - out of gas - out of oil - out of tires, if you are one that values their means of transportation all maintenance items are kept under control and check with regularity. While you can decry the land use for highways - they already have had capital invested in their building and their land area removed from the tax rolls. I guess we could turn the clock back 100 years -
Yes fuel is a part of Geo-Politics just like it is for railroads.
I like that generation Chevy.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
BaltACD Morgan LeFay BaltACD Morgan LeFay How is this for progress: Individual vehicle operators control their own destiny. It's more of muh automobile. Traffic jams are not control of ones's destiny. Car financing and maintenance are not control. Neither are car accidents caused by other people. If the middle-east wants to cut us off oil, that would not be controlling destiny. Cars contribute to air pollution worse than train and roads make awful usage of land. Railroad tracks have much higher carrying capacity. While railroad tracks may have a higher carrying capacity between specified O-D pairs. The O-D pair are not from the person's home to the person's intended destination. Motor vehicles take one from their home (which can be virtually anywhere) to their destination (which can also be virtually anywhere). Train go from station to station - you may not be at a station and then you can't go anywhere until you somehow get to a station. With one's 'local knowledge' on has a opportunity to circumnavigate traffic jams. Financing and maintenance are directly under the control of the vehicle owner - cash in full - auto loan - vehicle lease. If you are a dumb and cheap owner/operator just run the vehicle until it stops - out of gas - out of oil - out of tires, if you are one that values their means of transportation all maintenance items are kept under control and check with regularity. While you can decry the land use for highways - they already have had capital invested in their building and their land area removed from the tax rolls. I guess we could turn the clock back 100 years - Yes fuel is a part of Geo-Politics just like it is for railroads.
Yes, let's turn back the clock 100 years: The automobile is also about 100 years old.
I would rather ride a bicycle from the station to my destination. That reduces pollution and increases exercise.
Rail is more energy efficient than road, so fuel politics are not as much an issue. Nor do trains run on asphalt roads and rubber tires.
Exactly, I am agreeing with you. The president says they are bringing back coal, which means they will bring back steam.
Shock Control Morgan LeFay How is this for progress: Exactly, I am agreeing with you. The president says they are bringing back coal, which means they will bring back steam.
Steam, as in for steam turbines is better heated by fission not combustion. It would be better for nuclear power and hydropower to replace coal. This would add the benefit. Nuclear power is the most modern source of energy of all. The first commerical reactors went online in the 1950's. It's that potent, reliable, and abundant energy source that provides most energy for the TGV given that France gets most of its electricity from the glory of the atoms. A lot of the electricity for the Keystone Corridor is rooted in splitting atoms given that Pennsylvania has 10,000+Mwe of installed nuclear generating capacity.
Electricity has been used ever since the 1770s. In 1774, Georges-Louis Le Sage realised an early electric telegraph. I certainly hope you don't think electricity is outdated because it has been used for 244 years because that would constitute bias and a double-standard.
It would be wonderful for people to get from the train station to their end destination with buses, bicycles, street cars, and walking. Bicycles don't damage roads like cars do and buses, street cars, and walking are more energy efficient. Walking and bicycling provide exercise which is healthy.
And yes, the viscious cycle of highway building, congestion, and more highway building, and more congestion is pretty stupid. Oh, but I forgot, muh automobile. It's better to make efficient use of land to allow more land to go back to nature or to be used for businesses or farms.
One of the towns I would like to see serviced by passenger rail razed beautiful buildings to the ground to make way for parking lots and parking garages. This is probably due in part to their abandonment of streetcars.
But we have electric cars. Fine! Give me 50 or 60k for a Tesla Model S.
Oh, and the diesel engine is actually younger technology than the spark-ignited engine. Diesel engines so happen to dominate rail in the U.S. The first gasoline powered car was developed in 1870, 148 years ago. Rudolph Diesel's first engine was built in 1893. Diesel engines were just about always spark-ignited unlike gassers which used to use carburetors.
Commercial production of steam powered autos ended in 1930 - Well before coal became a dirty word.
Morgan LeFayI would rather ride a bicycle from the station to my destination. That reduces pollution and increases exercise.
That's nice. But the majority don't share that belief. But you go ahead and ride your bike.
Shock ControlExactly, I am agreeing with you. The president says they are bringing back coal, which means they will bring back steam.
And how does the one follow the other?
zugmann And how does the one follow the other?
They use couplers. The cars are coupled together, and the cars are coupled to the steam engine. The steam engine pulls the cars, and they follow each other along the track.
How does the return of coal usage lead to the revival of steam power on railroads (you give the impression that you believe that the return of coal will result in the use of steam to power train)?
Johnny
It's a nice fantasy, isn't it? I know a little about old cars and yes, there were a few steam powered cars like the Stanley, the White, early Locomobiles and the ultimate, the Doble. But not one of 'em ran on coal. Maybe those steam powered road carriages in Britain did, but those qualify as mass transit, not autos.
The railroad analogy to EV's in railroading would have been the 'fireless cookers';
The engines were use for switching where there was a ready supply of steam at the plant that was used for other uses in the plant. Charge the engine up to it's maximum capacity and let it go do it's job until it was running low and then recharge it again.
DeggestyHow does the return of coal usage lead to the revival of steam power on railroads (you give the impression that you believe that the return of coal will result in the use of steam to power train)?
Simple logic.
a. Steam engines use coal.
b. Our President is bringing back coal.
c. Our President is bringing back steam-powered trains.
The rest of the world will have 21st-century hyperloops, which are energy-efficient and which can bring people vast distances in short amounts of time, but the U.S. will have beautiful steam-powered trains, running on beautiful coal, on steel rails.
Shock ControlThe rest of the world will have 21st-century hyperloops, which are energy-efficient and which can bring people vast distances in short amounts of time, but the U.S. will have beautiful steam-powered trains, running on beautiful coal, on steel rails.
I can appreciate your humor and sarcasm, but you're stringing the joke out too long. Take your bows and exit stage left.
Shock Control Deggesty How does the return of coal usage lead to the revival of steam power on railroads (you give the impression that you believe that the return of coal will result in the use of steam to power train)? Simple logic. a. Steam engines use coal. b. Our President is bringing back coal. c. Our President is bringing back steam-powered trains. The rest of the world will have 21st-century hyperloops, which are energy-efficient and which can bring people vast distances in short amounts of time, but the U.S. will have beautiful steam-powered trains, running on beautiful coal, on steel rails.
Deggesty How does the return of coal usage lead to the revival of steam power on railroads (you give the impression that you believe that the return of coal will result in the use of steam to power train)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk
Can you name any other countries which are building or trying to build hyperloops?
Even the hyperdupe has roots in early 1800's technology, technology called atmospheric railways. However, the idea of transportation within tubes dates to the late 1700's.
zugmannI can appreciate your humor and sarcasm, but you're stringing the joke out too long. Take your bows and exit stage left.
Everyone's a critic.
And incidentally, I was responding to others' questions.
Shock ControlAnd incidentally, I was responding to others' questions.
Sure you were.
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