According to an article in the National Review, issue of February or March 2002, the WTC and Pentagon hijackers picked up their visas by showing their Saudi identity cards at a Riyadh credit card office. The information was then transmitted to the relevent American offices where the records were kept, just possibly making it possible to make the claim that the Visas were picked up at these offices. This matter was repeated in the National Review with a later article stating that the lady who was the State Department official who put the easy-access plan into effect was retiring. Do I need to contact the NR and get print-outs of this matter?
Don't bother. The official 9-11 commission report is a lot more credible than a right wing rag like NR.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
can you attach the relevent part of the report as an email attachment to me at daveklepper@yahoo.com ? If I need to be corrected on this matter, I would like the evidence first hand. I do not choose to go public with the name of the credit car company but can provide it for you in a personal message.
So, about Amtrak 188...
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Apologies, I read the quote from the report. Further evidence is not necessary. The report is from an accounting office in Washington that received information from the Consular Offices and the Embassy. It is second-hand information. At may be, of course, that National Review was lying. But it also may be true that the transmittal was a regular routing and the actual delivery of the visas did take place as that "rag" as you call it declaiared. The repeat of the information when the woman retired makes me suspect the latter.
But the fundamental issue is that if the real threat of Islamic Fundamentalist ideology had been recognized, both in the Clinton and in the subsequent Bush Administrations, the tragedies would not have happened. The very fact that some of these went to flying school and did not bother to stay to learn to land the plane would have been a red flag.
Another correction and apology. There was one time when Allies targeted civilians during WWII. After the Germans had carpet bombed the historic and non-military city of Coventry, as soon as Allied air-superiority was established the British fire-bombed Dresden, also a non-military target.
Much of Dresden has been rebuilt, to appear exactly as it did before WWII, including the jewel of the Semper Opera House.
daveklepper Another correction and apology. There was one time when Allies targeted civilians during WWII. After the Germans had carpet bombed the historic and non-military city of Coventry, as soon as Allied air-superiority was established the British fire-bombed Dresden, also a non-military target. Much of Dresden has been rebuilt, to appear exactly as it did before WWII, including the jewel of the Semper Opera House.
Coventry air raid: November 14, 1940. 507 killed.
Dresden air raid and firestorm: Feb. 13-15, 1945. 22,700 to 25,000 killed, long after the allies had achieved first air superiority and by Feb 1944, air supremacy over German skies.
Dresden became a target as it was a transportation hub for the German army, especially those retreating from the Russsians.
Was the attack necessary? People have been arguing that one for 70 years. Generals Patton and Montgomery thought bombing civilian centers was a waste of effort, if not downright immoral, but who are we to judge at this late date?
I didn't live through the era. I wasn't there. I didn't lose any friends or relatives to German bombs so I can't really blame the British if they took the attitude of "paybacks a b****" or "you sowed the wind, now reap the whirlwind."
I know how Sir Arthur Harris, CO of RAF Bomber Command felt about it. His instructions to the crews prior to the Hamburg raid: "Start a fire in the belly of the enemy that will burn his black heart out!"
Taking it back to the railroads, the marshalling yards at Dresden has been bombed several times before, crippling transportation, but not destroying civilians. The bombing in February, repeatedly over three days, needlessly destroyed residential and commercial areas and largely killing civilians, deliberately. Along with incendiaries, delayed detonation fragmentation bombs were also dropped to kill firemen and first responders. What if anything was accomplished militarily? Very little. Germany was already defeated and surrendered in three months. Some allied air force POWs may have also perished there, according to Vonnegut among others.
I consider Harris and Trenchard two of the worse monsters of WWII.
Carefully left undiscussed in most histories of WWII was the targeting of French railway personnel for 'Hades ab altar' courtesy of both the Eighth Air Force and numerous P47 sweeps. I'd have made much more of that if I'd been on the receiving end, whether making excuses for serving SNCF under Vichy or not.
schlimm Germany was already defeated and surrendered in three months. Some allied air force POWs may have also perished there, according to Vonnegut among others.
Germany was already defeated and surrendered in three months. Some allied air force POWs may have also perished there, according to Vonnegut among others.
A war is not over until the opposing leadership has 'signed on the dotted line' and told their forces to cease any agressive actions or defensive actions. Three months before the end - the 'true believers' still held the view that German victory was inevitable.
Even after the opposition has signed the surrender documents - there still remains the job of 'pacifying' the civilian population.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Well said, BaltACD.
Let me add a bit more. I've got a remarkable book here in the archives called "Lucky Forward," written in 1948 by Robert S. Allen who was a professional journalist and during the war was a US Army lieutenant colonel and General Patton's assistant G-2, that's military intellegence for you non-veterans out there.
Colonel Allen told the story of a captured German major general who had designed part of the West Wall (Siegfried Line) defenses and offered to show Patton and his staffers the best way to punch through it. When asked why he was very blunt about his reasons. He said the Nazis were NOT going to give up, they knew what was waiting for them if they lost, suicide or a hangmans rope. They were going to keep the war going as long as they possibly could and had the means and terror organizations to see that the rest of the Germans fought to the bitter end with them. So, anything this German general could do to hasten the end of the war and save his countrymen from Hitler he was going to do, even if it meant turning coat.
Colonel Allen said it was one of the best briefings he attended during the war. He also didn't give the mans's name and I can understand why.
Peace is wonderful, it's always to be preferred to war, but it only works when both sides want it.
I fail to see how either response justifies Dresden, either militarily or cowing the civilians. If you had talked to as many Germans who were adults during the war as I did, you would have a different opinion.
What happened at Dresden will never be resolved to anyone's satisfaction.
Which doesn't bother me. Only the good guys look back at what they did during a war and question whether what they did was really necessary.
I hope we always question what we did. It means we're a good people.
Firelock76 I hope we always question what we did. It means we're a good people.
Many have said it would not be possible for some one to throw a rock through a open side window of the locomotive and strike the engineer, momentarily incapacitating him .... stranger things have been documented as happening
Firelock76 Robert S. Allen
Robert S. Allen
http://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/25/obituaries/robert-s-allen-political-columnist.html
http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2010/09/a-most-unlikely-agent.html
http://www.pattonhq.com/textfiles/resign.html
Interesting links Wanswheel.
By the way, Colonel Allen makes no mention of himself losing an arm in "Lucky Forward." Patton himself mentions it in "War As I Knew It," also Colonel Allens recapture from the Germans.
And if any of you ever see a copy of "Lucky Forward" out there, grab it! It's one of the best books to come out of World War Two from a first-hand participant with a front row seat.
wanswheel Firelock76 Robert S. Allen Interesting character himself. Lost an arm in the war. http://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/25/obituaries/robert-s-allen-political-columnist.html http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2010/09/a-most-unlikely-agent.html http://www.pattonhq.com/textfiles/resign.html
Firelock: Here's a book I would recommend: Snow and Steel: The Battle of the Bulge, 1944-45 , Peter Caddick-Adams
Thanks for the tip Schlimm, I'll have to go on the hunt for it.
Hey, the thrill of the hunt's what it's all about!
BaltACD Many have said it would not be possible for some one to throw a rock through a open side window of the locomotive and strike the engineer, momentarily incapacitating him .... stranger things have been documented as happening
Seems unlikely the engineer would have had the side window open in an area known for rock-throwing vandalism, especially after he had just heard word of two strikes on southbound trains.
Was the side window open? Was there a stone found in the cab?
/Mr Lynn
If a rock was thrown, either A. It entered the cab through an open window, hit the engineer's head, mildly stunning him, deflected at a 15 degree angle and passed on out through the other side's open window; or B. Bounced off the window since the train was moving above 80 mph and most people would close it well below that speed, naturally.
Certainly, it would be possible for a rock to pass through an open window and strike an engineer, but I don't think that happened in the case of 188. However, I believe there is a fair chance that the windshield was hit by a rock or other thrown object. And I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that nobody has yet proven that did not happen. I also will bet that we never hear another official peep about the possibility of rock throwing, or any explanation of what caused the windshield damage.
If a rock did hit the windshield, I have no idea of what effect it might have had on the engineer. However, I don't think that anyone posting here has the faintest idea of what kind of experience it would be to have that level of impact and explosive shock wave come right at your face from only a few feet away.
What effect could such an experience have on a person's consciousness and thinking process?
What we have in this accident is something that went from perfectly normal to completely disabling the engineer in a matter of 10-15 seconds.
Euclid: As far as I am concerned, vandalism that causes loss of life is terrorism, regardless of whether or not the terrorist was motivated by any specific theology or cause.
Dave,
I understand your point. If it was a rock thrown, I have no idea what the motive would have been. My only point is that I can see a plausible explanation for the cause of the derailment being a thrown rock. And I do not believe that such a cause would have required the rock to actually strike the engineer. I do not believe that the engineer was actually struck by a rock.
I do not know one way or another about your last point, otherwise I agree completely.
Vandalism is not generally the same thing as terrorism. They differ in purpose. I would suggest the use of publicaly agreed defintions of words.
'A word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
Vandalism = the willful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property.
Terrorism = the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal.
You have no credible evidence that the windshield, etc. were not examined thoroughly.
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