Amtrak Train 188 - Possibly some answers coming soon?

[wanswheel]

Excerpt from interview of SEPTA engineer Curtis Parrish

http://dms.ntsb.gov/public/58000-58499/58167/585209.pdf

Q. Okay, Mr. Parrish, like I mentioned before, if you could just give us a run-down leaving 30th Street and what you experienced, and in particular, anything that you remember about the 188 train as he, I understand, he came up and went by you? Over.

A. All right. We left 30th Street at approximately 9:01. Nothing out of the ordinary. Came eastbound through Mantua. I started to increase speed, I was just -- well, in fact, as I was leaving Mantua. And I saw a white light. I don't know what it was. It looked like it could've been somebody carrying a white light. So I decided to blow the horn for them, to make sure they know I was coming. I'm positive it wasn't an employee or an Amtrak employee because they didn't have a whistle board or anything like that. So I just wanted to warn them that a train was coming. As I blew the horn, something hit the windshield and knocked glass into my face and onto the console, then onto my person. As I ducked down, trying to get away from it, I was clutching the door and trying to get out of the door; couldn't get the door open. And I heard a passenger knock on the door because they also heard the sound too. I put the train into emergency, and I finally got the door open and started to call the CTEC 6. I could tell there was a person out there, but I couldn't tell -- I couldn't give a description or anything, because you -- if you're running in the dark, you can tell there's someone out there, but you can't really tell -- you couldn't really tell a description because they were on the 3 track that's on my right. And I'm sure that they weren't trying to be seen anyway, but I digress. I called CTEC 6 and told them that something hit my windshield and shattered the windshield. I don't what it was. I told them that we would had put our train in emergency and we were stopped at milepost 86. They asked me again, you know, where we were, approximately where we were, if anybody was hurt. I told them that no one was hurt, and he asked me again, was -- did I need assistance. So finally, I told him that, okay, you can send assistance, but I don't believe anybody was hurt because I was the only one in the cab obviously. I was, you know, brushing the glass off of me and everything like that. And the Amtrak train was coming east, and I could hear him on the radio saying -- because he saw us stopped, I could hear him on the radio saying we have hot rail on 2. That would be train 188 passing us. That was approximately 15 minutes -- we had been stopped -- maybe 10 minutes after we had been stopped. So he passed us. When he passed us, I didn't see anything out of the ordinary out of 188. It seemed to pass us at normal speed. I don't think he was going any faster than he should've been. It just passed us. But the other train was just, was telling us that a train was coming. I can't even remember if he blew his horn or not, but -- usually that would be the case, but I can't remember if he blew his horn or not. So there was really nothing I could say that was out of the ordinary about 188 passing us. Usually that train does not pass us until later down the road, but since we had been -- we're in emergency and we had stopped because I was making a report to CTEC 6, it passed us earlier than it usually does. It passed us. I tried to make another report to CTEC 6 because he was just trying to make sure we were okay and trying to make sure that he had someone coming to our assistance. That's when our power when out. And when our -- after our power went out and came back on, he told me that he had gotten an emergency call so he couldn't talk to us anymore. Because I didn't yell emergency on the radio. I just knew something hit us, and I was kind of shocked that something hit us. So I didn't yell emergency on the radio. But Amtrak got the emergency call from the 188 train, so we didn't have any more contact with CTEC 6. Outside of that, they sent fire, they sent police to our train. You know, we -- you know, I made sure I gave all the information to the police officers that showed up. I told the EMTs that I did not need assistance and they continued on to the other scene. That's basically everything that happened to our train.

 

Excerpt from interview of Amtrak dispatcher Joseph Curran

http://dms.ntsb.gov/public/58000-58499/58167/585202.pdf

Q. If you could, if you have to take a minute or two or if you want to use any notes you have there started, that's beautiful. But what I'm looking for, and I think pretty much what our little group is looking for here, is if you could give us a scenario of the train as it came onto your territory, basically operated as -- well, as far as he went, and then just take us through the notification, what you did for the response people, who you talked to in the office there and, you know, anything you basically can add. We're looking for as many details as possible.

A. Okay. I was -- displayed form normal past 30th Street Station, like I said, his normal route, 1 to 2 at Girard and all the way through Holmes, east of Holmes, on 2 track. As far as I can remember, it was all clear signals, pulled up with them. At the time, I couldn't tell you the exact time. It probably happened about 5 to 10 minutes before I got the emergency call. I was dealing with the SEPTA train who was just west of Lehigh on 1 track. I believe it was SEPTA 746, I want to say. And he just, he reported going into emergency -- or, I mean, not -- he report his windshield being blown out and he said he was stopped at, I want to say, around milepost 86, if my memory serves me right. He said he wasn't sure what blew out his windshield. His whole windshield was gone. He wasn't sure if it was a rock, somebody stoned his train, or maybe even a possible gunshot. He really didn't know. So I asked him if he wanted, needed medical attention. My focus was on him at that moment. And he said he wanted medical attention. And at the same time, right around that same time, 188 was coming east up to his location. I vaguely remember overhearing the engineer on 188 saying something along the lines of, like, coming up on you or hot rail, kind of notifying that engineer that he was coming east on -- coming up to him. I don't know if he gave him a direction or anything. And oh, excuse me, prior to that, there was an Acela train that was reported was going west. I don't know his exact location. I didn't speak with them, but I overheard just through the office that he reported either a possible gunshot or stoning. So it had to have been around the same vicinity. So it was the SEPTA train that reported this, the Acela train who was going westbound, I believe 2173, and my focus was on that. I overheard 188 saying, you know, he was coming up on – in that area, and that was it. So my focus was still on that SEPTA train who was on my territory, and I was notifying the assistant chiefs that we needed to get a EMS out there for this engineer because he reported glass all over his face and he wanted medical attention. So that was it. I'd say a couple, probably about 2 to 5 minutes later after that, 188 was obviously still going east on 2 track. He went past the SEPTA train's location, no problems. And all of a sudden, I lost signal power, everything went red. At that point I spoke with the power director, which is pretty normal when we lose signal power. He was actually walking towards my section before I got to him. He asked if anybody reported losing signal power out there, so I was just about to contact either 188 or the SEPTA train about if they lost signal power out there, and just before I tried to contact them on the radio, I heard -- I believe it was a handbrake or the assistant conductor -- I can't remember her exact title -- but she screamed emergency, emergency, emergency. And I spoke with her on the radio. She said that they had derailed and that their car was on their side.

 

All of the interviews are interesting.

http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=58167&CurrentPage=9&EndRow=135&StartRow=121&order=1&sort=0&TXTSEARCHT

[schlimm]

Simply stating a fact without rancor, without name-calling, is not picking a fight.  Euclid and I respect each other's opinions but feel entirely free to challenge each other.

[Electroliner 1935]

schlimm

You have no credible evidence that the windshield, etc. were not examined thoroughly.   

 

Schlimm, while what you say may be true, this is the kind of post that is offensive to the must of the posters (at least this one) and is what starts the thread being locked. I would ask that you refrain from trying to pick fights or arguments. 

We don't have knowledge of what the investigation has determined yet and until we do, we can speculate. Things we do know include a SEPTA train being rocked. And Bostian alerting it to his approach. 

 

Bostian seems like what we want in an engineer, it is reasonable to give him any benefit of the doubt until all the evidence is in. I concur that the possibility of something impacting the ACS-64 could be involved. He took the Southbound Acela with no incident to Washington. He passed the substance tests and cooperated with the investigation. I say lets wait until the investigation is complete before jumping to any conclusions. And lets not challenge other posters as if they have commited blasphemy. Please.

[Euclid]

schlimm

You have no credible evidence that the windshield, etc. were not examined thoroughly.   

I don't claim to have any evidence of whether or not the windshield was examimed. All I am saying is that a credible report will include such a laboratory examination of the windshield and will state the results of that examination.  If the investigation final report does not include that, I will consider the investigation and the report to be flawed.   

[schlimm]

You have no credible evidence that the windshield, etc. were not examined thoroughly.   

[Euclid]

I do not believe that the two terms are synonymous; however, a terrorist act can contain action that would be called vandalism if it were not associated with the terrorist act.  I don’t know whether, such action could continue to be called vandalism while being associated with terrorism or not.    

 

In any case, my concern in this discussion about the wreck of 188 is whether rock throwing (or some derivative of it) had anything to do with causing the wreck.  Unless we find out that it did, it seems pointless to speculate as to whether the motive of the rock throwing was vandalism or terrorism.  Either motive, or both combined could lead to rock throwing.

 

Specifically, I am interested in a fair resolution in the investigation as it pertains to the potential cause of the wreck as being rock throwing.  Such a resolution would include a laboratory analysis of the locomotive windshield damage including the details of how the evidence was preserved prior to the analysis.  The fair resolution would also include the affirmation that the engineer made no radio transmission about rock throwing as was alleged to have been overheard by the on-board conductor of the train.  Without these details as part of the investigation, I will dismiss it as not being credible. 

[schlimm]

Vandalism is not generally the same thing as terrorism. They differ in purpose.   I would suggest the use of publicaly agreed defintions of words.

'A word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

Vandalism = the willful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property.

Terrorism = the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal.

[daveklepper]

I do not know one way or another about your last point, otherwise I agree completely.

[Euclid]

Dave,

I understand your point.  If it was a rock thrown, I have no idea what the motive would have been.  My only point is that I can see a plausible explanation for the cause of the derailment being a thrown rock.  And I do not believe that such a cause would have required the rock to actually strike the engineer.  I do not believe that the engineer was actually struck by a rock.

 

[daveklepper]

Euclid:  As far as I am concerned, vandalism that causes loss of life is terrorism, regardless of whether or not the terrorist was motivated by any specific theology or cause.

[Euclid]

Certainly, it would be possible for a rock to pass through an open window and strike an engineer, but I don't think that happened in the case of 188.  However, I believe there is a fair chance that the windshield was hit by a rock or other thrown object.  And I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that nobody has yet proven that did not happen.  I also will bet that we never hear another official peep about the possibility of rock throwing, or any explanation of what caused the windshield damage. 

If a rock did hit the windshield, I have no idea of what effect it might have had on the engineer.  However, I don't think that anyone posting here has the faintest idea of what kind of experience it would be to have that level of impact and explosive shock wave come right at your face from only a few feet away. 

What effect could such an experience have on a person's consciousness and thinking process?  

What we have in this accident is something that went from perfectly normal to completely disabling the engineer in a matter of 10-15 seconds.   

[schlimm]

If a rock was thrown, either A. It entered the cab through an open window, hit the engineer's head, mildly stunning him, deflected at a 15 degree angle and passed on out through the other side's open window; or B. Bounced off the window since the train was moving above 80 mph and most people would close it well below that speed, naturally.  

[MrLynn]

BaltACD

Many have said it would not be possible for some one to throw a rock through a open side window of the locomotive and strike the engineer, momentarily incapacitating him .... stranger things have been documented as happening

Seems unlikely the engineer would have had the side window open in an area known for rock-throwing vandalism, especially after he had just heard word of two strikes on southbound trains.

Was the side window open?  Was there a stone found in the cab?

/Mr Lynn

[Firelock76]

Thanks for the tip Schlimm, I'll have to go on the hunt for it.

Hey, the thrill of the hunt's what it's all about!

[schlimm]

wanswheel

 

 

Firelock76

Robert S. Allen

 

 

 

 

Interesting character himself. Lost an arm in the war.

http://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/25/obituaries/robert-s-allen-political-columnist.html

http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2010/09/a-most-unlikely-agent.html

http://www.pattonhq.com/textfiles/resign.html

 

Firelock:   Here's a book I would recommend:   Snow and Steel: The Battle of the Bulge, 1944-45 , Peter Caddick-Adams

[Firelock76]

Interesting links Wanswheel.

By the way, Colonel Allen makes no mention of himself losing an arm in "Lucky Forward."  Patton himself mentions it in "War As I Knew It," also Colonel Allens recapture from the Germans.

And if any of you ever see a copy of "Lucky Forward" out there, grab it!  It's one of the best books to come out of World War Two from a first-hand participant with a front row seat.

[wanswheel]

Firelock76

Robert S. Allen

 

Interesting character himself. Lost an arm in the war.

http://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/25/obituaries/robert-s-allen-political-columnist.html

http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2010/09/a-most-unlikely-agent.html

http://www.pattonhq.com/textfiles/resign.html

[BaltACD]

Many have said it would not be possible for some one to throw a rock through a open side window of the locomotive and strike the engineer, momentarily incapacitating him .... stranger things have been documented as happening

[Euclid]

I do not see any indication that the cause of 188 derailing was related to terrorism.  However, I do see a reasonable possibility that it was related to vandalism in the form of thrown rocks or other objects. 

 

According to the engineer’s interview, he made a correct decision to accelerate his train, and then abruptly lost control of his decision making ability maybe 10-15 seconds later.  Then the train continued accelerating out of the engineer’s control and derailed in the curve about 45 seconds later. 

 

There were several details regarding evidence of “rock” throwing in the immediate vicinity, and the NTSB concluded that none of them prove that 188 was hit by a rock. 

 

They said nothing about proof that 188 was NOT hit by a rock.  And yet, it seemed to me that the NTSB was trying to imply that position even though they did not say it.  To be sure, all of the news media did say exactly that for the NTSB.  Their conclusion was that no rock throwing was involved based their interpretation that the NTSB had not proven any rock throwing.

 

An objective report will have a full laboratory analysis of the locomotive windshield damage including the identification of residual material from the object that did the damage.     

[MrLynn]

Firelock76

I hope we always question what we did.  It means we're a good people.

 

 

Well said.  Now can we get back to the mystery of Train 188?

 

/Mr Lynn

[Firelock76]

What happened at Dresden will never be resolved to anyone's satisfaction.

Which doesn't bother me.  Only the good guys look back at what they did during a war and question whether what they did was really necessary.

I hope we always question what we did.  It means we're a good people.

[schlimm]

I fail to see how either response justifies Dresden, either militarily or cowing the civilians.  If you had talked to as many Germans who were adults during the war as I did, you would have a different opinion. 

[Firelock76]

Well said, BaltACD.

Let me add a bit more.  I've got a remarkable book here in the archives called "Lucky Forward," written in 1948 by Robert S. Allen who was a professional journalist and during the war was a US Army lieutenant colonel and General Patton's assistant G-2, that's military intellegence for you non-veterans out there.

Colonel Allen told the story of a captured German major general who had designed part of the West Wall (Siegfried Line) defenses and offered to show Patton and his staffers the best way to punch through it.  When asked why he was very blunt about his reasons.  He said the Nazis were NOT going to give up, they knew what was waiting for them if they lost, suicide or a hangmans rope.  They were going to keep the war going as long as they possibly could and had the means and terror organizations to see that the rest of the Germans fought to the bitter end with them.  So, anything this German general could do to hasten the end of the war and save his countrymen from Hitler he was going to do, even if it meant turning coat.

Colonel Allen said it was one of the best briefings he attended during the war.  He also didn't give the mans's name and I can understand why.

Peace is wonderful, it's always to be preferred to war, but it only works when both sides want it.

[BaltACD]

schlimm

Germany was already defeated and surrendered in three months.  Some allied air force POWs may have also perished there, according to Vonnegut among others.

A war is not over until the opposing leadership has 'signed on the dotted line' and told their forces to cease any agressive actions or defensive actions.  Three months before the end - the 'true believers' still held the view that German victory was inevitable.

Even after the opposition has signed the surrender documents - there still remains the job of 'pacifying' the civilian population. 

[Wizlish]

I consider Harris and Trenchard two of the worse monsters of WWII.

Carefully left undiscussed in most histories of WWII was the targeting of French railway personnel for 'Hades ab altar' courtesy of both the Eighth Air Force and numerous P47 sweeps.  I'd have made much more of that if I'd been on the receiving end, whether making excuses for serving SNCF under Vichy or not.

[schlimm]

Taking it back to the railroads, the marshalling yards at Dresden has been bombed several times before, crippling transportation, but not destroying civilians.  The bombing in February, repeatedly over three days, needlessly destroyed residential and commercial areas and largely killing civilians, deliberately.  Along with incendiaries, delayed detonation fragmentation bombs were also dropped to kill firemen and first responders.  What if anything was accomplished militarily?   Very little.  Germany was already defeated and surrendered in three months.  Some allied air force POWs may have also perished there, according to Vonnegut among others.

[Firelock76]

Dresden became a target as it was a transportation hub for the German army, especially those retreating from the Russsians. 

Was the attack necessary?  People have been arguing that one for 70 years.  Generals Patton and Montgomery thought bombing civilian centers was a waste of effort, if not downright immoral, but who are we to judge at this late date?

I didn't live through the era.  I wasn't there. I didn't lose any friends or relatives to German bombs so I can't really blame the British if they took the attitude of "paybacks a b****"  or "you sowed the wind, now reap the whirlwind."

I know how Sir Arthur Harris, CO of RAF Bomber Command felt about it.  His instructions to the crews prior to the Hamburg raid:  "Start a fire in the belly of the enemy that will burn his black heart out!"

[schlimm]

daveklepper

Another correction and apology.  There was one time when Allies targeted civilians during WWII.   After the Germans had carpet bombed the historic and non-military city of Coventry, as soon as Allied air-superiority was established the British fire-bombed Dresden, also a non-military target.

Much of Dresden has been rebuilt, to appear exactly as it did before WWII, including the jewel of the Semper Opera House.

 

Coventry air raid: November 14, 1940. 507 killed.

Dresden air raid and firestorm: Feb. 13-15, 1945. 22,700 to 25,000 killed, long after the allies had achieved first air superiority and by Feb 1944, air supremacy over German skies.

[daveklepper]

Another correction and apology.  There was one time when Allies targeted civilians during WWII.   After the Germans had carpet bombed the historic and non-military city of Coventry, as soon as Allied air-superiority was established the British fire-bombed Dresden, also a non-military target.

Much of Dresden has been rebuilt, to appear exactly as it did before WWII, including the jewel of the Semper Opera House.