Apologies, I read the quote from the report. Further evidence is not necessary. The report is from an accounting office in Washington that received information from the Consular Offices and the Embassy. It is second-hand information. At may be, of course, that National Review was lying. But it also may be true that the transmittal was a regular routing and the actual delivery of the visas did take place as that "rag" as you call it declaiared. The repeat of the information when the woman retired makes me suspect the latter.
But the fundamental issue is that if the real threat of Islamic Fundamentalist ideology had been recognized, both in the Clinton and in the subsequent Bush Administrations, the tragedies would not have happened. The very fact that some of these went to flying school and did not bother to stay to learn to land the plane would have been a red flag.
So, about Amtrak 188...
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
can you attach the relevent part of the report as an email attachment to me at daveklepper@yahoo.com ? If I need to be corrected on this matter, I would like the evidence first hand. I do not choose to go public with the name of the credit car company but can provide it for you in a personal message.
Don't bother. The official 9-11 commission report is a lot more credible than a right wing rag like NR.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
According to an article in the National Review, issue of February or March 2002, the WTC and Pentagon hijackers picked up their visas by showing their Saudi identity cards at a Riyadh credit card office. The information was then transmitted to the relevent American offices where the records were kept, just possibly making it possible to make the claim that the Visas were picked up at these offices. This matter was repeated in the National Review with a later article stating that the lady who was the State Department official who put the easy-access plan into effect was retiring. Do I need to contact the NR and get print-outs of this matter?
KingDavid Hotel: The call was placed to the British Commander. He refused to take the call. He said. "I do not take orders from Jews."
I understand your resentment. You wish to blame everybody as a fair person. Sure, and the Christian Science Monitor in Boston and several British papers ran edidtiorials at the time Hitler got his way with the Nuremberg Laws. All these editorials said essentially: "Well, of course Jews have too much influence in German culture and its economy." So the Hitler menace grew to affect most of the World. And the Mufti who recasted Islam was a friend and corrispondant of Hitler even before Hitler became Germany's Chancellor. I can provide you with many, not a few, examples of Jewisih Israeli unselfishness toward "Palestinians" and other mideast Arabs and Muslims. Just contact me at my email address, and I will attach the imformation. Carter did negotiate a good compromse when Egypt got back the Sinei after loosing it to Israel in a war Egypt started. But Sadat was a statesman, generally concerned about the welfare of his people, and not undully influenced by the Nazi-like theology of Hajji Aman Hussieni. Israel, Jordan, Egypt, and now even Saudi Arabia, could get together and work out a compromise, but both the PLO and Hamas have been teaching children since 1996 that the total destruction of Israel is inevitable and that they, the children, should take park in this destruction. The portions of the Koran that specifically deliniate the Jewish claim to the Holy Land are not taught, nor is the history of the real start of Zionism when Muslim Arabs invited 70 Jewish families to return to Jerusalem after driving out the European Crusdaders. (And incidentally allowed certain Monestaries and Convents to continue to function.)
The new Saudi King had organized an interfaith conference, and at least one Orthodox and Zionist Jew was there, Rabbi David Rose, and met the King and explained in simple terms the importance of The Holy Land to the Jewish People. But he (the new King) could not (yet?) iinvite the event to be in his own country. May the day come soon.
Schlimm, like Obama and Kerry, you don't want to recognize the problem. Isalmic Fundamentalsim is a powerful force, as Naziism was in the 1930's. I can tolerate your resentment and still say what I believe the truth.
daveklepperSchlimm, it is the kind of thinking you exhibit that is causing countless deaths of Christians today in the Middle East.
I resent such a statement. Deaths of Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists in the Middle East are caused by selfishness, over-reliance on weapons to solve human problems, and an inability for the parties concerned to negotiate rational compromises.
daveklepperAnd the King David Hotel was completely in use by the British military, was their command headquarters, and was blown up only after 15 minutes after the British commander received a phonecall telling him to evacuate the building.
Several warning calls were made but none were directly to any british officials. The terrorists were dressed as Arabs, BTW. The casualties?
"91 people were killed, most of them being staff of the hotel or Secretariat: 21 were first-rank government officials; 49 were second-rank clerks, typists and messengers, junior members of the Secretariat, employees of the hotel and canteen workers; 13 were soldiers; 3 policemen; and 5 were members of the public. By nationality, there were 41 Arabs, 28 British citizens, 17 Palestinian Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian. 46 people were injured."
daveklepper15 of the 16 perpetrators of WTC-Pentagon picked up thier visas at a Riyadh credit card office (of a USA company) simply by showinig a Saudi ID card. Which also, of course, could possible have been faked, I would guess. Previously just as now and just as in Israel, one would have to go the consulate, fill an application, and then wait while referenceds were checked.
Again, a statement made by you which is pure fiction without any sourcing. Here is a detailed account taken from the 9-11 commision report::
November 2, 1997-June 20, 2001: Hijackers Obtain US VisasThe 19 hijackers apply and receive a total of 23 visas at five different posts from November 1997 through June 2001. Hani Hanjour, Khalid Almidhar, Saeed Alghamdi and Ahmed Alnami, Saudi citizens, apply twice at Jeddah. Only Hanjour applies for a student visa, others for tourist/business visa. [United States General Accounting Office, 10/21/2002 pdf file; 9/11 Commission, 8/21/2004, pp. 7-45 pdf file]
The Stein Gang sent letter bombs! And how did the British government and military suddenly become so evil that you rather cavalierly dismiss the many fatal terrorist attacks on them? They were legitimately in Palestine under international law. The modern state of Israel was founded on terrorism, gaining legitimacy only after a fait accompli. Tell the families of British officials their fathers and sons that they were "oppressors" deserving to die at the hands of Israelis.
daveklepperCarter in effect ordered the Shah to step down. Read the papers of the period, please.
What papers? You make claims that do not check out in a Google search. You should be able to provide at least one reputable link.
CSSHEGEWISCH It all depends upon whose ox is being gored. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
It all depends upon whose ox is being gored. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Nonsense. One who indiscriminately attacks civilians and civilian infrastructure with the aim of terrorizing the population for political ends is a terrorist. He may call himself a 'freedom fighter', on the theory that the end deserves any means, but he is not. He is a criminal of the vilest sort.
All of this is wildly off-topic. The deliberate stoning of trains by idle youth is dangerous vandalism, to be sure, but not terrorism, unless these youth are engaged in a political movement. In this day it is not inconceivable, but no group has taken credit for NER 188.
Has the NTSB downplayed the stoning factor in the wreck for fear of offending some people? I certainly hope not. Have they concluded it was not a factor for empirical reasons? I don't know; does anyone not involved in the investigation?
/Mr Lynn
ecall that the Canadians did forestall two terrorist attacks on railroads, one being the NY - Toronto train. Forget the specific details, someone else can supply.
15 of the 16 perpetrators of WTC-Pentagon picked up thier visas at a Riyadh credit card office (of a USA company) simply by showinig a Saudi ID card. Which also, of course, could possible have been faked, I would guess. Previously just as now and just as in Israel, one would have to go the consulate, fill an application, and then wait while referenceds were checked.
Carter in effect ordered the Shah to step down. Read the papers of the period, please. Similarly, Obama ordered Murburack.
excuse me Schlimm, the Irgun, Lehi, and Hagganah never went into British Schools to kill British children. The targets were exclusively Governmental and Military, exclusively.
On one occasion, a group of British soldiers with a weapons transport was captured by the Irgun in a vacant area far from any British base. The Irgun soldiers ordered the British soldiers to load all the weapons, including those on their persons, into one of the ramshackle trucks the Irgun had borrowed from a farm collective. It was hot day. Midway through the loading process, the Irgun commander called time out, and unpacked a crate of organges that happened to be on the truck, and gave every soldlier, both the British and his own, an orange to eat.
The Irgun, Lehi, and Hagganah used the American Revolution as thier model for conduct. (Members of my own New York Congregation fought in Washington;s Army. Contact me at daveklepper@yahoo.com and I'll attach a scanned letter from GW.) The "massacer"at the two refugee camps was caused by Lebanese Chhristians, and Shaaron lost his command because of his inadvertantly allowing it to happen. And the King David Hotel was completely in use by the British military, was their command headquarters, and was blown up only after 15 minutes after the British commander received a phonecall telling him to evacuate the building.
Schlimm, it is the kind of thinking you exhibit that is causing countless deaths of Christians today in the Middle East. Because doctors that claim to cure a disease when theya are only treating symptoms can cause death. The big problem in the World today is Islamic Fundamentalims and the terror it produces. The terror wiped out the Jewish community of Hebron in 1929, a community that had existed there from around 1600, with excellent relations with their Arab neighbors until Hajj Amin Husseini became Mufti. And he channged Islalm to produce the ISIS of today.
Not only did Jewish partisans fighting for an independent Israel never attack civilians the way the PLO and Hamas do, but no French, Russian, Dutch, Polish, or Czeck partisans ever attacked German chidlren.
I've read the translations of the "Palestinian" textbooks. Glad to attach them to you via return email.
daveklepperCarter took Iran from the Shah, a despot, but one pro-USA and pro-religious freedom, and gave it to the Ayatollas in the name of Democracy. Bill Clinton approved a State Department change that allowed 15 of the direct participants in the WTC and Pentagon tragedies to enter the USA without consular or security review.
I really wonder what is your source for such claims? Carter has been blamed for much but the claim he gave Iran to the Ayatollahs is not one you are likely to be able to support with credible documentation. 2. 15 of the 19 911 participants were able to enter the US because they were Saudi nationals. (3 UAE, 1 Egypt). Five were residents of Hamburg. But all required visas. obtained at consulates and needing an interview. The CIA and BND both had the Hamburg cell under observation, but neglected to share that with our State Department consular staffs. They entered on legal temporary (6 month) visitors, mostly as tourists. Several had overstayed. http://www.fairus.org/issue/identity-and-immigration-status-of-9-11-terrorists
BTW, organizations such as Hagenah, especially Palmach, Irgun and the Lehi (aka, the Stern Gang) engaged in numerous deadly undertakings against the British and Palestinians which most observers would regard as terrorist activities. Few religions, even in modern times, have clean hands. Terrorists or patriots depending on POV.
Jerking my chain? Maybe, but I don't think so. He was a Marine and I was a Marine and we had too much mutual respect to BS each other.
He never said he was involved in that kind of cover up, but he said he knew these things happened and always by direction of higher authorities, not the investigating officers.
As I said, "for what it's worth." Believe it or not, I won't be offended if you don't.
Everythings a Conspiracy? Watch out for that man behind yonder tree. Moma, he looked at me! Don't believe in coincidences? ISIS is coming for us. S%#t happens.
Firelock76 OK, for what it's worth... Years ago a police detective told me that a lot of incidents happen in this country that could be classified as "terrorism." Not of the Al Quaida or ISIS type, back in the 80's those organizations didn't exist, the only one anyone had heard of was Al Fatah, but of the old fashioned "lone-wolf mad bomber" type. To deny the "mad bomber" any publicity or satisfaction and to stop any public panic these incidents were usually passed off as gas main explosions or electrical substation failures, or anything else that sounded plausable. So there is a precedent for hushing up incidents, it's been done in the past.
OK, for what it's worth...
Years ago a police detective told me that a lot of incidents happen in this country that could be classified as "terrorism." Not of the Al Quaida or ISIS type, back in the 80's those organizations didn't exist, the only one anyone had heard of was Al Fatah, but of the old fashioned "lone-wolf mad bomber" type.
To deny the "mad bomber" any publicity or satisfaction and to stop any public panic these incidents were usually passed off as gas main explosions or electrical substation failures, or anything else that sounded plausable. So there is a precedent for hushing up incidents, it's been done in the past.
I think your detective friend was jerking your chain. I am a retired police lieutenant and I have never heard of an intentional act being reported as an accident of any kind. A police officer who was a party to such a fraudulent cover up would probably be fired.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Euclid if terrorists committed an act involving a train wreck, the NTSB would probably blame it on the lack of PTC
As Norm asked Cliff: "What color is the sky in your world?"
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Am I saying a terrorist or vandal attack is reponsible for the Amtrak crash? Not at all. I don't know what caused the Amtrak crash, nor do I pretend to know.
Schlimm, I agree. And vandalisim becomes terrorism when it endangers human health and life. After WWI, the USA experienced terrorism from anarchists, people opposed to any form of Government. But we had a Government that was willing to tackle the issue. The present Adminisration had done some good things and some that many on the Forum would question. But one of the three Abrahamic religions has a real Cancer, and fighting ISIS where it controls real estate and willfully ignoring the Cancer that exists elsewhere throughout the entire World, not only the USA and Israel and its neighbors, but in Europe, Russia, and even China.
Sure, there are extremists in the other two relgions as well, but they do not control real estate and do not control governments and schools and universities and armies, and insure terrorists receive payment for doing terror. And citing that one of the religions did act similarly in the Dark Ages (Torquamada) or another in the days of the Hebrew Bible (two of Jacob's sons after the rape of Dinah by the Prince of a neighboring tribe) does not excuse deliberate ignorance of the real threat today. And it is not just the current Adminstration. Carter took Iran from the Shah, a despot, but one pro-USA and pro-religious freedom, and gave it to the Ayatollas in the name of Democracy. Bill Clinton approved a State Department change that allowed 15 of the direct participants in the WTC and Pentagon tragedies to enter the USA without consular or security review. And the kind of education that produced ISIS leaders and Bill Quada was funded mostly by USA oil money. Today, these cancerous governments use textbooks that have whole sections translated into Arabic from those used by Hitler. No excuse for the lies about Bengazi and for those about Fort Hood.
So of course I am suspicous. And of course there are good and bad people in every populaton. The motives and the extent of the evil differ.
And don't discount the possibility of a second gunman on a grassy knoll.
Electroliner 1935I hope this forum has inteligent posters with more good sense than to do that. Lets not devolve this thread any worse than it already has.
That's what they want you to think!
Phoebe VetWhy has no one yet explored the possibility of space aliens as the cause?
I hope this forum has inteligent posters with more good sense than to do that.
Lets not devolve this thread any worse than it already has.
Why has no one yet explored the possibility of space aliens as the cause?
So graffiti is terrorism? Vandalizing free-standing mailboxes? The Halloween "tricks" of old, such as soaping windows or now, such as smashing pumpkins (not the rock group)?
schlimm daveklepper THE HEAD OF THE FBI COULD EASILY HAVE BEEN ORDERED TO MAKE THE STATEMENT HE DID, EITHER BY HEAD OF HOMELAND SECURITY OR THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF. REMEMBER THE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE FORT HOOD INCIDENT. AND BENGAZI, LIBYA. BOTH HAD STATEMENTS CONTRARY TO FACTS. AND THIS IS NOT POLITICS OR RELIGION, SINCE I BELIEVE THE CURRENT POLITICAL SITUATION CAN EASILY DISTORT A RAILWAY ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION. Without one shred of evidence, you consistently suggest this was terrorism. Perhaps living so long in an area where terrorism is routine has colored your vision.
daveklepper THE HEAD OF THE FBI COULD EASILY HAVE BEEN ORDERED TO MAKE THE STATEMENT HE DID, EITHER BY HEAD OF HOMELAND SECURITY OR THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF. REMEMBER THE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE FORT HOOD INCIDENT. AND BENGAZI, LIBYA. BOTH HAD STATEMENTS CONTRARY TO FACTS. AND THIS IS NOT POLITICS OR RELIGION, SINCE I BELIEVE THE CURRENT POLITICAL SITUATION CAN EASILY DISTORT A RAILWAY ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION.
THE HEAD OF THE FBI COULD EASILY HAVE BEEN ORDERED TO MAKE THE STATEMENT HE DID, EITHER BY HEAD OF HOMELAND SECURITY OR THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF. REMEMBER THE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE FORT HOOD INCIDENT. AND BENGAZI, LIBYA. BOTH HAD STATEMENTS CONTRARY TO FACTS. AND THIS IS NOT POLITICS OR RELIGION, SINCE I BELIEVE THE CURRENT POLITICAL SITUATION CAN EASILY DISTORT A RAILWAY ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION.
Without one shred of evidence, you consistently suggest this was terrorism. Perhaps living so long in an area where terrorism is routine has colored your vision.
Terrorism in this country in not necessarily of the ISIS or Al-Quaida variety and has existed in various forms since Christopher Columbus and Plymouth Rock. Some of passes itself off under the innoucous term 'vandalism'. The aim is the same - to create havoc among those who don't expect it and thereby create fear of it happening again it may or may not be connected to any form of political agenda.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
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