I wonder. It all comes down to the engineer, what he did or didn't do, why he did what he did or didn't do, especially since he'd had a good record up to the crash and was supposed to have been familiar with the route and any speed restrictions.
I've refrained from any speculations, I certainly wasn't there, although I'm hoping for the engineer's sake there's some kind of mitigating circumstances.
Firelock76I'm hoping for the engineer's sake there's some kind of mitigating circumstances.
It's within the realm of possibility the NTSB could recommend him for 'return to service'. They have done that for airline pilots who were cooperative in helping them find the cause of an accident. What I bolded is the key factor but it doesn't necessarily mean Amtrak would place him back in engine service.
Eagerly awaiting the preliminary and some FACTS.
Norm
The report will be interesting to see because I cannot imagine any possible new revelations. The one key revelation would be the explanation for the engineer's failure to slow for the curve, and what caused him to have memory loss. However, I assume that the investigation has not found the answers to those questions yet, and may never find them.
Another key revelation would be an explanation of the locomotive windshield damage. I doubt that will be in the report.
What will be in tomorrow's report will be the absolute ruling out of rocks or other objects being thrown and striking the locomotive. This may have been absolutely ruled out already. But it will be clearly stated as a conclusion in the report.
What's to explain about his memory loss?
Leo_Ames What's to explain about his memory loss?
The reason why it happened, when it began, and how it affected the engineer's actions during its existence, if it began prior to the accident.
ndbprrThere is speculation that the hole in the windshield was from a thrown rock that hit his head causing the black out.
1) Rocks being thrown at the train.
2) Gunshots being fired at the train.
3) The windshield damage being caused by rocks.
4) The windshield damage being caused by gunshots.
5) The report of hearing a radio transmission from the engineer saying that his locomotive had been hit by rocks.
Euclid Leo_Ames What's to explain about his memory loss? The reason why it happened, when it began, and how it affected the engineer's actions during its existence, if it began prior to the accident.
I think Schlimm might be able to help us on this, but it is my understanding that memory loss leading up to a traumatic event is not unusual. Remember the crash that killed Princess Di? As I recall, the driver in that case also had no memory of events leading up to the accident.
Somewhere I saw or heard that the brain works with a sort of temporary memory for immediate functions and takes some time to process and sort out what it will store permanently. In the case of a traumatic event, this process is interrupted and the last events never get stored permanently. Anyway, that's my un-expert way of thinking of it.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
There was no hole in the windshield.
It is true that the driver of the car in which Dianna died had no memory of it but that is because he was dead.
OK, it appears my old mind mis-remembered, so I did a little checking. It was bodyguard Trevor Rees-Jones that survived the wreck, not the driver. He suffered serious head injuries and didn't recall what happened.
EuclidI expect tomorrow’s report to declare the following with 100% certainty:
Posters expecting earth-shattering revelations from the preliminary report are likely to be disappointed.
tdmidgetIt is true that the driver of the car in which Dianna died had no memory of it but that is because he was dead.
DOH! Whoda thunk?
Norm48327 Euclid I expect tomorrow’s report to declare the following with 100% certainty: Posters expecting earth-shattering revelations from the preliminary report are likely to be disappointed.
Euclid I expect tomorrow’s report to declare the following with 100% certainty:
Paul of Covington I think schlimm might be able to help us on this, but it is my understanding that memory loss leading up to a traumatic event is not unusual.
I think schlimm has in fact commented on this in one of the previous threads. Google 'retrograde amnesia' for some independent corroboration.
Not an unusual event in a combination of physical and emotional trauma, I think. On the other hand, I believe there are other mechanisms (again, which schlimm is the best qualified here to comment on) like primacy, latency, and recency, which might tend to make some aspects of a traumatic experience more, rather than less, memorable for recall.
The big problem here is that anything involving Bostian's mental state is basically the most extreme sort of speculation. We can't possibly 'know', and I suspect the NTSB may not be able to 'know' either. It's likewise speculation to muse about how the memory loss is going to be treated or handled in the various official outcomes, including what a future career with Amtrak would involve...
There is another piece of data that would 'corroborate' any evidence from the recorders, a piece of information which I continue to think is more significant as evidence of a 'thinking' state. (Evidence of brake and throttle actuation isn't exactly proof of 'consciousness', as I distinctly recall from the history of 'sleepy' crew behavior we've run through in various threads...)
Remember the witness testimony of the series of staccato horn bursts that took place immediately before the crash? I do not think those came from any 'work crew' or switching vehicles; that was the engineer of 188 warning anyone that the juggernaut was off the rails...
WizlishThe big problem here is that anything involving Bostian's mental state is basically the most extreme sort of speculation. We can't possibly 'know', and I suspect the NTSB may not be able to 'know' either.
We certainly cannot know. The investigators, if able to examine Bostian with appropriate experts, might be able to make some more knowledgeable conclusions.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Reading through the reports, does anyone see any new information that was relevant to the accident? It looks like the engineer lost awareness for some time before realizing he entered the slow order. Lots of details but no useful information.
NTSB Report
petitnj NTSB Report
Bostian interview, May 15
http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=436072&docketID=58167&mkey=91159
“Unfortunately, the last memory I have on the way back is approaching and passing the platforms in North Philadelphia. I remember turning on the bell, and the next thing that I remember is when I came to my senses I was standing up in the locomotive cab after the accident.”
That is an amazing interview from 11/10. I am surprised to see it in the report.
In a recent post by David Schanoes, he blasted the NYT for being too dramatic in the synopsis of the wreck a few days earlier than this report. Yet the above interview paints a very dramatic picture.
wanswheel petitnj NTSB Report Bostian interview, May 15 http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=436072&docketID=58167&mkey=91159 “Unfortunately, the last memory I have on the way back is approaching and passing the platforms in North Philadelphia. I remember turning on the bell, and the next thing that I remember is when I came to my senses I was standing up in the locomotive cab after the accident.” Bostian interview, Nov. 10 http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=436074&docketID=58167&mkey=91159 “The memory I think I may have from that night was that I came out of the 65 mile an hour curve. I pushed the throttle forward to accelerate my train. And as I approached 70 miles an hour, I have a memory I backed off the throttle by mistake because I was targeting 70 miles an hour instead of 80 miles an hour. And as I approached 70 miles an hour, I have a memory that I took action to bring the train up to 70 miles an hour. And I have a memory that I realized my mistake, that I should have been operating at 80 miles an hour. And that I pushed the throttle forward in order to accelerate from 70 to 80. And I don't remember anything from that point until after the train was already in the curve. And again, with that memory of bringing the train to 70, realizing a mistake and then making an attempt to bring the train from 70 to 80. There's a very good possibility that could have occurred on a previous trip because that sort of mistake is something that could have happened on any trip. So I don't know. I can't tell you with accuracy, with certainty that that was on the night of the accident. But in my mind, that's what I believe. That's when I believe that memory was from. As I said, once I pushed the throttle forward in an attempt to bring the train up to 80 miles an hour, I don't have any other memories until after the train was already in the curve. And the memory that happened from that point was, the memory from there is very vague. The only word, and I hesitate to use the word dream-like because it sounds like I was asleep and I don't believe that I was asleep at all. But kind of a very foggy memory as in I don't have, the memory doesn't includes much visual memory. I don't remember hearing much. It was more of a feeling. I remember feeling my body lurch to the right, towards the right side of the engine. I remember feeling as though I was going too fast around a curve. In response to that feeling, I put the train brake on, made about a ten pound application of the brake. On a normal operating day, that would be my normal response to slowing down the train for a normal speed reduction. Would be to put a ten pound application of the brake on, give it about maybe five or ten seconds for the brakes to apply. And then apply the brakes further to make a smooth brake application for comfortable train handling. Very soon -- this again, I don't know if this memory is accurate. But my memory is, very quickly after I made that ten pound reduction, I realized from the force on my body, I realized that this is something that's very serious and I need to bring down the train speed quickly. And so, almost immediately after I made that ten pound reduction, I went to full service on the brakes which would be, you know, I need to slow down this train quickly, right now. At some point after I made that reduction of the brake, from my memory, I felt a sensation of the fireman's side of the locomotive lifting up. In other words, the train felt, the engine felt as though it were tilting over. But I remember taking a few seconds -- I say seconds, I don't mean that literally. I don't know how long it physically took me to realize. But it felt like it took some amount of time for me to realize the sensation, put together that the sensation of the fireman's side of the engine tilting up really meant that the train engine was tilting over. And that's when I realized that it wasn't that the train was going somewhat fast around the curve. The train was going significantly fast around the curve. And that's when I put the train into emergency."
Thanks, Mike (wanswheel) for the informative links: In the first link Engineer Bastian seems to perfectly describe what used to be referred to as a "MicroNap", now referred to as a " MicroSleep".
See partial description here: "...Microsleeps are brief, unintended episodes of loss of attention associated with events such as blank stare, head snapping, and prolonged eye closure which may occur when a person is fatigued but trying to stay awake to perform a monotonous task like driving a car or watching a computer screen. These are potentially among the most dangerous consequences of insomnia.
Microsleep episodes last from a few seconds to two minutes, and often the person is not aware that a microsleep has occurred. In fact, microsleeps often occur when a person's eyes are open. While in a microsleep, a person fails to respond to outside information. A person will not see a red signal light or notice that the road has taken a curve, which is why this phenomenon is of particular interest to people who study drowsy driving. During a microsleep, a pilot might not be aware of flashing alarm lights in the cockpit..."
This description (partial) is from this source @ http://www.sleepdex.org/microsleep.htm
Before retiring from Tucking ( transportation safety) The explanations for what were then referred to as micro naps was just being discussed and efforts to research it were just getting to be funded. It was then thought that it was a rational explanation for incidents of trucks rear-ending other vehicles which may or may not have been stopped in travel lanes; as well as incidents that had been described as 'inattentive driving'.
Sam, I'm doubting Bostian was relaxed enough to fall asleep, because he seems to have been highly stimulated by the SEPTA train incident in both interviews.
wanswheel Sam, I'm doubting Bostian was relaxed enough to fall asleep, because he seems to have been highly stimulated by the SEPTA train incident in both interviews.
I don't think that microsleeps require being relaxed. My mother voluntarily quit driving because she was experiencing something along that line. She was riding with me one time and announced that it had just happened - a complete "blackout" even though her eyes were open...
Another term that probably fits the description (and may be the same thing) is being "zoned out."
I think many of us have experienced it - suddenly realizing that we don't recall having passed a certain familiar landmark, even though we know that we had to have done so to get where we are...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Mike(Wanswheel)l: My own personal experience is that a microsleep is a result of what some refer to as a 'sleep debt', it can be caused by repetive conditons(boring activity). (ie): Long hours of driving in low traffic, or night-time conditions,( simply, driving in the rain with the wipers creating a monotenous motion in the vision field); even driving into a sunrise or even low setting sun will do it for me.
Regardless, the MicroSleep is an unconscious-level perception in the individual's brain; coupled with that individual's sleep debt. Whatever, the'tool'( be it a microsleep, or a 'flench' motion, a brain chooses to use to 'protect the individual, and to correct the then current problem/deficit(?) present with that particular individual. All seems to function in a sub-conscious level in the affected individual.
I was looking through an older issue of Trains or Classic Trains the other day and ran across the story of an engineer who was running a freight, at speed, and apparently asleep. Nonetheless, according to the author of the story, he never missed a crossing. He'd wake, blow for the crossing, and be out again...
tree68 I was looking through an older issue of Trains or Classic Trains the other day and ran across the story of an engineer who was running a freight, at speed, and apparently asleep. Nonetheless, according to the author of the story, he never missed a crossing. He'd wake, blow for the crossing, and be out again...
I donknow,Larry (tree68): The human brain is quite amazing at times! 20+ years OTR taught me how to 'sleep' in many uncomfortable conditions. Individual reactions to stimulus can be violent, at times, and then sudued, depending on the circumstances one can find themselves in.
My son was a firefighter in a community East of Memphis, I've seen them so busy under unusual circumstances (weather) the crew chose to sleep in turnouts in their truck. Then go to a scene, and pile out looking like zombies, but quickly able to react, and do their jobs. with precision. Amazing!
samfp1943Individual reactions to stimulus can be violent, at times, and then sudued, depending on the circumstances one can find themselves in.
My son was a firefighter in a community East of Memphis, I've seen them so busy under unusual circumstances (weather) the crew chose to sleep in turnouts in their truck.
I recall reading once that boxers were sometimes known to be able to take a "power nap" before a match.
groomer manPersonally that ' memory loss' thing is bs. It's just someone trying to get out of admitting they screwed up and dealing with the consequences
We don't know what happened. Many have said that retroactive memory loss can occur after a traumatic event, especially a blow to the head, which we know the engineer experienced.
The NYT article last week suggested another explanation for the wreck, namely situational disorientation or confusion, i.e. the engineer not recognizing his location. Both that and the memory loss could have happened. Most likely we won't know unless Mr. Bostian recovers his memory.
/Mr Lynn
MrLynn groomer man We don't know what happened. Many have said that retroactive memory loss can occur after a traumatic event, especially a blow to the head, which we know the engineer experienced. The NYT article last week suggested another explanation for the wreck, namely situational disorientation or confusion, i.e. the engineer not recognizing his location. Both that and the memory loss could have happened. Most likely we won't know unless Mr. Bostian recovers his memory. /Mr Lynn
groomer man
The only time we will ever know is when technology is developed that will allow a device to plug into a individual and interrogate all the synapses of the brain and extract all the information those synapses contain. Don't hold your breath. [/sarcasm]
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Accidents are more often attributed to human error. One thing is certain, a system needs to be developed in modern passenger trains that can over ride the possibility of human error and stop, deter or otherwise prevent the accident from occurring.
There are safe guards built into modern locomotives, but the locomotive itself needs to have the "brains" if you will, to predict such situations like, a speed that is far too excessive for an upcoming curve. In the 21st century, such a system needs to be in all locomotives.
Humans are only capable of doing "X" amount of task within a given moment of time. A smart locomotive can, at the very least, compliment the engineers abilities to run his locomotive with greater accuracy and with superior safety. Everyone knows that on control panels there is a button type switch that the engineer needs to push every so many times when other controls have not been used to let the locomotive know, hey I'm alive, but is this enough?
This particular Amtrak train had a fairly new locomotive heading it. The engineer was very familiar with the locomotive. He had made this run numerous times. The weather and track conditions were optimal for a standard run. Yet, the train left the tracks. Nothing short of a smart locomotive would have prevented this tragedy from occurring.
If an engineer is somehow incapacitated, it is the locomotive that must be able to come to a complete safe stop. Even in extreme conditions, a smart locomotive can predict and actually perform calculations at rates so rapid that no one would ever even known there was a problem. I believe such a system must be incorporated in all locomotives being used to transport passengers and goods. There are just too many uncertain situations that humans cannot react to quick enough to prevent these accidents from happening. Like, for example, a person throwing a rock at a locomotive and the rock just happens to enter a window and strike the engineer and at a moment when critical decisions are to be made. Like speed adjustments for a curve for example. A smart locomotive would back the engineer up by taking the correct actions thereby eliminating unnecessary risk to life and property. Imagine if this had been a freight train consist of highly explosive chemicals and it derailed in a very highly populated area. The chemicals, so lethal, they kill almost immediately.
Such tragedies can be avoided by implementing smart locomotive technologies. Allowing the locomotive to assist the engineer in ways that may prevent what occurred last year.
By the way, I know that there are systems incorporated in modern locomotives which can allow for remote control of a locomotive should it become clear that the engineer is not at the controls. However, what I am preposition is that the locomotive itself have technologies that allow it to predict certain situations, such as a curve coming up and the speed needs to be dropped to allow the train to make the curve.
By the way, I know that there are systems incorporated in modern locomotives which can allow for remote control of a locomotive should it become clear that the engineer is not at the controls. However, what I am suggesting is that the locomotive itself have technologies that allow it to predict certain situations, such as a curve coming up and the speed needs to be dropped to allow the train to make the curve.
Jack R. Accidents are more often attributed to human error. One thing is certain, a system needs to be developed in modern passenger trains that can over ride the possibility of human error and stop, deter or otherwise prevent the accident from occurring. There are safe guards built into modern locomotives, but the locomotive itself needs to have the "brains" if you will, to predict such situations like, a speed that is far too excessive for an upcoming curve. In the 21st century, such a system needs to be in all locomotives. Humans are only capable of doing "X" amount of task within a given moment of time. A smart locomotive can, at the very least, compliment the engineers abilities to run his locomotive with greater accuracy and with superior safety. Everyone knows that on control panels there is a button type switch that the engineer needs to push every so many times when other controls have not been used to let the locomotive know, hey I'm alive, but is this enough? This particular Amtrak train had a fairly new locomotive heading it. The engineer was very familiar with the locomotive. He had made this run numerous times. The weather and track conditions were optimal for a standard run. Yet, the train left the tracks. Nothing short of a smart locomotive would have prevented this tragedy from occurring. If an engineer is somehow incapacitated, it is the locomotive that must be able to come to a complete safe stop. Even in extreme conditions, a smart locomotive can predict and actually perform calculations at rates so rapid that no one would ever even known there was a problem. I believe such a system must be incorporated in all locomotives being used to transport passengers and goods. There are just too many uncertain situations that humans cannot react to quick enough to prevent these accidents from happening. Like, for example, a person throwing a rock at a locomotive and the rock just happens to enter a window and strike the engineer and at a moment when critical decisions are to be made. Like speed adjustments for a curve for example. A smart locomotive would back the engineer up by taking the correct actions thereby eliminating unnecessary risk to life and property. Imagine if this had been a freight train consist of highly explosive chemicals and it derailed in a very highly populated area. The chemicals, so lethal, they kill almost immediately. Such tragedies can be avoided by implementing smart locomotive technologies. Allowing the locomotive to assist the engineer in ways that may prevent what occurred last year. By the way, I know that there are systems incorporated in modern locomotives which can allow for remote control of a locomotive should it become clear that the engineer is not at the controls. However, what I am suggesting is that the locomotive itself have technologies that allow it to predict certain situations, such as a curve coming up and the speed needs to be dropped to allow the train to make the curve.
Your ideas are well behind the curve. PTC accomplishes what you are suggesting, on the lines that are being equipped.
The engineer of AMTK 188 was not familiar with the new locomotive and there is speculation that this played a role in the accident.
The problem with smart locomotives being able to overrule the engineer is that there must be redundancy in the systems being used to determine parameters. Similar problems have been seen with Airbus's control system attempting to save pilots from themselves. When the computer thinks one thing is happening when in reality another is, problems may ensue. While children of the magenta isn't as big of a problem on the ground it still may cause accidents. Computers misinterpreting data may also cause accidents.
In my opinion computers are an excellent backup but control should always be with a certified talented engineer.
BaltACD MrLynn groomer man We don't know what happened. Many have said that retroactive memory loss can occur after a traumatic event, especially a blow to the head, which we know the engineer experienced. The NYT article last week suggested another explanation for the wreck, namely situational disorientation or confusion, i.e. the engineer not recognizing his location. Both that and the memory loss could have happened. Most likely we won't know unless Mr. Bostian recovers his memory. /Mr Lynn The only time we will ever know is when technology is developed that will allow a device to plug into a individual and interrogate all the synapses of the brain and extract all the information those synapses contain. Don't hold your breath. [/sarcasm]
They may be able to determine far more than you think. Your knowledge of neuroscience is insufficient for you to make anything more than silly comments. Stick to railroad operations, on which you are an expert.
My own personal conclusion is the fault actually is primarily with whoever decided to DISABLE the previous PRR ATS system on that specific northbound track in preparation for the new system now installed without immediately having the new system installed. All that I have read indicates the old system with its built-in speed restriction and automatic emergency stop if speed exceeded would have prevented the accident.
Dave,
If that is true, the NTSB will not mention it at all since it would place the blame on management rather than the engineer.
Mac McCulloch
schlimm They may be able to determine far more than you think. Your knowledge of neuroscience is insufficient for you to make anything more than silly comments. Stick to railroad operations, on which you are an expert.
So, will Bastain's memory be downloaded and 'the truth' displayed?
daveklepper My own personal conclusion is the fault actually is primarily with whoever decided to DISABLE the previous PRR ATS system on that specific northbound track in preparation for the new system now installed without immediately having the new system installed. All that I have read indicates the old system with its built-in speed restriction and automatic emergency stop if speed exceeded would have prevented the accident.
That is a good point. As I recall, they left in, or reinstalled the automatic stop for excessive speed for just the southbound movment. Their theory was said to be that southbound trains needed the safety measure because they approach at the 106 mph limit, and so rolling over in the curve would be more likely due to a failure to slow down. Whereas, northbound trains would be governed by the lower speed limit; and that would be low enough to negotiate the curve even if the engineer failed to slow down.
Well, that is fine reasoning, but it is incomplete. It fails to account for the fact that a northbound engineer could forget where he was and accelerate all the way up to the 106 mph limit, and then suddenly realize that he was entering the curve.
So yes, the automatic stop feature clearly acknowledged that the hazard of the curve needed such protection against human error. But deciding that it was only needed in one direction was a little dense and too clever by half.
groomer men, actually, "memory loss" is highly probable, I have experienced 4 incidence's of what is called "transient global amnesia," over the past 20 years which leave me with complete loss of memory for quite short periods of time usually about 20 - 40 minutes. The event can be triggered by stress, brief exertion, and probably many other sudden shocks such as maybe in this case reaction to something like the crash of an object against the locomotive window. The problem with any recall is that it is impossible, the brain did not "record" that time interval....it is very puzzling and frustrating even though the person during the "event" will appear pretty normal. Not "bs" at all.
And the 3rd possibility that the rock hitting the window distracted him or even made him unconsious.
But again, I blame the decision to leave that northbound track unprotected for overspeed as the real culprit in this case. If the engineer needs my, I will be glad to help. For years the PRR and PC, over half a century, had the protection in, and it was Amtrak's fault to remove it.
daveklepper And the 3rd possibility that the rock hitting the window distracted him or even made him unconsious. But again, I blame the decision to leave that northbound track unprotected for overspeed as the real culprit in this case. If the engineer needs my, I will be glad to help. For years the PRR and PC, over half a century, had the protection in, and it was Amtrak's fault to remove it.
Euclid daveklepper And the 3rd possibility that the rock hitting the window distracted him or even made him unconsious. But again, I blame the decision to leave that northbound track unprotected for overspeed as the real culprit in this case. If the engineer needs my, I will be glad to help. For years the PRR and PC, over half a century, had the protection in, and it was Amtrak's fault to remove it. I agree that the rock hitting the windshield is a possibility, but that would be included in my Scenario #1 above. In that case, the engineer would have made the decision to accelerate to 80 mph, and then the rock hit the windshield and caused the "mental event" or lapse of consciousness. This prevented the engineer from reducing the throttle when the train reached 80 mph.
Just a possibility that has crossed my mind. I'm basing this on my understanding that the throttle (accelerator) is pulled toward the engineer to increase the power/speed. Thoughts?
WhiteLeather I'm wondering if another probability is being considered: when the rock hit the windshield, the engineer's hand was on the throttle; his reaction was to duck out of the way of something hitting the windshield; as he went down, he pulled the throttle (since his hand was on it), causing the train to increase speed; as he went down, struck his head, causing the injury and subsequent loss of memory Just a possibility that has crossed my mind. I'm basing this on my understanding that the throttle (accelerator) is pulled toward the engineer to increase the power/speed. Thoughts?
I'm wondering if another probability is being considered:
This was, in fact, extensively discussed in some of the early posts here on this accident. You might want to go back and review them ... although it certainly is beginning to look as though no few of them have been forgotten by the very people who made them.
I have not ruled out the role of rock thowing in causing the accident. I was rather surprised at how anxious the NTSB seemed to be to rule it out. Frankly, I doubt their objectivity in that detail. I believe they were worried about tarnishing the image of Philadelphia.
NTSB is a solid engineering based, objective and honest organization. That remark about "tarnishing the image of Philadelphia" is totally out of line!
sno-cat NTSB is a solid engineering based, objective and honest organization. That remark about "tarnishing the image of Philadelphia" is totally out of line!
Well they tell us what they find, and we are free to accept it or reject it. I carefully watched how the rock throwing factor emerged and was handled by the NTSB, and I think they were overly anxious to rule out anything to do with it. So I wondered why that would be. I concluded that they did not want to talk about Amtrak trains routinely rolling through areas where they were hit by rocks thrown by criminals. That would tarnish the image of both Philadelphia and Amtrak. I don't think they allowed the time it would take for science to tell us what caused that windshield damage.
They also implied that they had proven that no radio communication was made by the engineer regarding rock throwing, as had been reported by the conductor. But in reality, they said they could not find any such communcation. They did not say that no such communication existed.
Nobody is objective. The NTSB has been pushing PTC for ages and always steers their findings toward that implementation. Probably why the rock theory was very quickly dismissed - it doesn't fit that narrative.
Note, I'm not saying anything for or against PTC. Just pointing out the NTSB isn't completely objective in nature.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
How do they explain the large hole in the windshield?
daveklepperHow do they explain the large hole in the windshield?
The explanation at the time was that something bounced up and hit it during the 'run' between the derailment and the time the locomotive stopped. (If I remember correctly the locomotive slewed around so the working nose was facing backward by the time it stopped.)
zugmann sno-cat NTSB is a solid engineering based, objective and honest organization. That remark about "tarnishing the image of Philadelphia" is totally out of line! Nobody is objective. The NTSB has been pushing PTC for ages and always steers their findings toward that implementation. Probably why the rock theory was very quickly dismissed - it doesn't fit that narrative. Note, I'm not saying anything for or against PTC. Just pointing out the NTSB isn't completely objective in nature.
Absolutely true in every way. To Dave's question about explaining the hole in the windshield, as far as I know, they have not explained it. But they have 100% assured us that it was not caused by a bullet, rock, or other thrown object. To the point by Wizlish, as far as I know, there has been no official explanation that the windshield damage was caused by airborne objects disloged by the derailment. However, that theory was widely proposed by people posting on this forum shortly after the news of the wreck.
The whole story about the "rocking" of the other train, the claim of hearing the radio transmission from the engineer of 188, and the possibility of gunshots was swiftly packaged up and dismissed in order to avoid explaining it and finding the possibility that it played a part in the wreck.
THE FBI WAS QUICK TO CLAIM NOTHING WAS THE RESUJLT OF TERRORISM, BUT FIND NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER TO BACK UP THAT CLAIM, EITHER WITH REGARD TO THE AMTRAK TRAIN OR THE SEPTA TRAIN.
daveklepper THE FBI WAS QUICK TO CLAIM NOTHING WAS THE RESUJLT OF TERRORISM, BUT FIND NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER TO BACK UP THAT CLAIM, EITHER WITH REGARD TO THE AMTRAK TRAIN OR THE SEPTA TRAIN.
I would assume that the FBI or other police agencies would be loathe to give away their sources of such information.
CSSHEGEWISCH daveklepper THE FBI WAS QUICK TO CLAIM NOTHING WAS THE RESUJLT OF TERRORISM, BUT FIND NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER TO BACK UP THAT CLAIM, EITHER WITH REGARD TO THE AMTRAK TRAIN OR THE SEPTA TRAIN. I would assume that the FBI or other police agencies would be loathe to give away their sources of such information.
The FBI would not reveal such information. Also, it is the absence of any information supporting the notion of terrorism, so it is hard to "show" anything.
NTSB is very slow and thorough. Compare that with the German crash investigation, with results released within one week. So we just need to wait instead of engaging in endless rounds of speculation. But from the beginning, it seems highly probable this was human error primarily and secondarily, the fault of Amtrak for ending the old PRR control system on the NB track.
I read testimony from engineer, conductors and some passengers in e-mail from NARP and also an article from newsaper. Very traumatic event and don't know if it will ever be answered completely. On #611 trip this past summer, my friends and I had lunch in Petersburg with Amtrak policeman from Philly who had worked the wreck. He said that's a very dangerous section of line and they'd like to reroute past that area. Trains have been hit with bicycles thrown from bridges, rocks, shot at, and even a refrigerator left on tracks that one of their trains hit and caused major damage to engine. I read about the SEPTA engineer getting hit by something and talking to dispatch. Bostian overheard the conversation and was aware something was going on in the area, he said he was coming in on "hot" line which the investigators said it meant he was passing SEPTA in case any workers were on the tracks. It does sound like the engine was more powerful than he was used to and didn't get much of a break at DC. He was a man who loved trains from the time he was an young kid, so I don't think he was goofing around in the cab.
I am a strong promoter of two men/women in the cab, another set of eyes & ears is very helpful and often mandatory. Speculation is that Bostian ducked when he heard something hit windshield and might have bumped his head and passed out. Still doesn't explain why train was going double the speed limit on that stretch of track. I've always felt someone might have hacked into onboard computer and took over, they do it in cars and even heard about planes, so why not trains. Hackers are everywhere.
For a man who loved trains, Bostian will probably never run another one again. And sad for the families who lost loved ones and also the other Amtrak employees who were severly injured. It sounded like a nightmare when the train derailed but don't know if anyone will ever know what really did happen.
Reading over more comments, I did see something that I had read previously that PRR had something in place to slow down a train that was going too fast and Amtrak had removed it. Too bad they did, because it sounded like that would have helped prevent something like this. And it does seem like confusion with so many speed changes in a short span of time, 70 mph, 80 mph, 50 mph. Why go so fast for a short distance and then have to drop dramatically coming into a sharp curve, an engineer alone has a lot to watch and as someone said, his hand might have been on throttle when he ducked and hit head and pushed speed up to 106. No one in their right mind would have did that unless they had a death wish. And as much as Bostian loved trains, I don't see him doing anything like that, he took his job very seriously as it was more than just a job-he was running trains, something he always wanted to do.
The engineer testified in the interview that he intentionally began the acceleration, and his method was always to open wide and then throttle down when he reached the intended speed. So we know that everything was normal when the engineer began to accelerate. The problem began when he reached 80 mph and failed to throttle back.
THE HEAD OF THE FBI COULD EASILY HAVE BEEN ORDERED TO MAKE THE STATEMENT HE DID, EITHER BY HEAD OF HOMELAND SECURITY OR THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF. REMEMBER THE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE FORT HOOD INCIDENT. AND BENGAZI, LIBYA. BOTH HAD STATEMENTS CONTRARY TO FACTS. AND THIS IS NOT POLITICS OR RELIGION, SINCE I BELIEVE THE CURRENT POLITICAL SITUATION CAN EASILY DISTORT A RAILWAY ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION.
daveklepper THE HEAD OF THE FBI COULD EASILY HAVE BEEN ORDERED TO MAKE THE STATEMENT HE DID, EITHER BY HEAD OF HOMELAND SECURITY OR THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF. REMEMBER THE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE FORT HOOD INCIDENT. AND BENGAZI, LIBYA. BOTH HAD STATEMENTS CONTRARY TO FACTS. AND THIS IS NOT POLITICS OR RELIGION, SINCE I BELIEVE THE CURRENT POLITICAL SITUATION CAN EASILY DISTORT A RAILWAY ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION.
Without one shred of evidence, you consistently suggest this was terrorism. Perhaps living so long in an area where terrorism is routine has colored your vision.
schlimm daveklepper THE HEAD OF THE FBI COULD EASILY HAVE BEEN ORDERED TO MAKE THE STATEMENT HE DID, EITHER BY HEAD OF HOMELAND SECURITY OR THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF. REMEMBER THE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE FORT HOOD INCIDENT. AND BENGAZI, LIBYA. BOTH HAD STATEMENTS CONTRARY TO FACTS. AND THIS IS NOT POLITICS OR RELIGION, SINCE I BELIEVE THE CURRENT POLITICAL SITUATION CAN EASILY DISTORT A RAILWAY ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION. Without one shred of evidence, you consistently suggest this was terrorism. Perhaps living so long in an area where terrorism is routine has colored your vision.
Terrorism in this country in not necessarily of the ISIS or Al-Quaida variety and has existed in various forms since Christopher Columbus and Plymouth Rock. Some of passes itself off under the innoucous term 'vandalism'. The aim is the same - to create havoc among those who don't expect it and thereby create fear of it happening again it may or may not be connected to any form of political agenda.
So graffiti is terrorism? Vandalizing free-standing mailboxes? The Halloween "tricks" of old, such as soaping windows or now, such as smashing pumpkins (not the rock group)?
Why has no one yet explored the possibility of space aliens as the cause?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe VetWhy has no one yet explored the possibility of space aliens as the cause?
I hope this forum has inteligent posters with more good sense than to do that.
Lets not devolve this thread any worse than it already has.
Electroliner 1935I hope this forum has inteligent posters with more good sense than to do that. Lets not devolve this thread any worse than it already has.
That's what they want you to think!
And don't discount the possibility of a second gunman on a grassy knoll.
Schlimm, I agree. And vandalisim becomes terrorism when it endangers human health and life. After WWI, the USA experienced terrorism from anarchists, people opposed to any form of Government. But we had a Government that was willing to tackle the issue. The present Adminisration had done some good things and some that many on the Forum would question. But one of the three Abrahamic religions has a real Cancer, and fighting ISIS where it controls real estate and willfully ignoring the Cancer that exists elsewhere throughout the entire World, not only the USA and Israel and its neighbors, but in Europe, Russia, and even China.
Sure, there are extremists in the other two relgions as well, but they do not control real estate and do not control governments and schools and universities and armies, and insure terrorists receive payment for doing terror. And citing that one of the religions did act similarly in the Dark Ages (Torquamada) or another in the days of the Hebrew Bible (two of Jacob's sons after the rape of Dinah by the Prince of a neighboring tribe) does not excuse deliberate ignorance of the real threat today. And it is not just the current Adminstration. Carter took Iran from the Shah, a despot, but one pro-USA and pro-religious freedom, and gave it to the Ayatollas in the name of Democracy. Bill Clinton approved a State Department change that allowed 15 of the direct participants in the WTC and Pentagon tragedies to enter the USA without consular or security review. And the kind of education that produced ISIS leaders and Bill Quada was funded mostly by USA oil money. Today, these cancerous governments use textbooks that have whole sections translated into Arabic from those used by Hitler. No excuse for the lies about Bengazi and for those about Fort Hood.
So of course I am suspicous. And of course there are good and bad people in every populaton. The motives and the extent of the evil differ.
OK, for what it's worth...
Years ago a police detective told me that a lot of incidents happen in this country that could be classified as "terrorism." Not of the Al Quaida or ISIS type, back in the 80's those organizations didn't exist, the only one anyone had heard of was Al Fatah, but of the old fashioned "lone-wolf mad bomber" type.
To deny the "mad bomber" any publicity or satisfaction and to stop any public panic these incidents were usually passed off as gas main explosions or electrical substation failures, or anything else that sounded plausable. So there is a precedent for hushing up incidents, it's been done in the past.
Am I saying a terrorist or vandal attack is reponsible for the Amtrak crash? Not at all. I don't know what caused the Amtrak crash, nor do I pretend to know.
Euclid if terrorists committed an act involving a train wreck, the NTSB would probably blame it on the lack of PTC
As Norm asked Cliff: "What color is the sky in your world?"
Firelock76 OK, for what it's worth... Years ago a police detective told me that a lot of incidents happen in this country that could be classified as "terrorism." Not of the Al Quaida or ISIS type, back in the 80's those organizations didn't exist, the only one anyone had heard of was Al Fatah, but of the old fashioned "lone-wolf mad bomber" type. To deny the "mad bomber" any publicity or satisfaction and to stop any public panic these incidents were usually passed off as gas main explosions or electrical substation failures, or anything else that sounded plausable. So there is a precedent for hushing up incidents, it's been done in the past.
I think your detective friend was jerking your chain. I am a retired police lieutenant and I have never heard of an intentional act being reported as an accident of any kind. A police officer who was a party to such a fraudulent cover up would probably be fired.
Everythings a Conspiracy? Watch out for that man behind yonder tree. Moma, he looked at me! Don't believe in coincidences? ISIS is coming for us. S%#t happens.
Jerking my chain? Maybe, but I don't think so. He was a Marine and I was a Marine and we had too much mutual respect to BS each other.
He never said he was involved in that kind of cover up, but he said he knew these things happened and always by direction of higher authorities, not the investigating officers.
As I said, "for what it's worth." Believe it or not, I won't be offended if you don't.
daveklepperCarter took Iran from the Shah, a despot, but one pro-USA and pro-religious freedom, and gave it to the Ayatollas in the name of Democracy. Bill Clinton approved a State Department change that allowed 15 of the direct participants in the WTC and Pentagon tragedies to enter the USA without consular or security review.
I really wonder what is your source for such claims? Carter has been blamed for much but the claim he gave Iran to the Ayatollahs is not one you are likely to be able to support with credible documentation. 2. 15 of the 19 911 participants were able to enter the US because they were Saudi nationals. (3 UAE, 1 Egypt). Five were residents of Hamburg. But all required visas. obtained at consulates and needing an interview. The CIA and BND both had the Hamburg cell under observation, but neglected to share that with our State Department consular staffs. They entered on legal temporary (6 month) visitors, mostly as tourists. Several had overstayed. http://www.fairus.org/issue/identity-and-immigration-status-of-9-11-terrorists
BTW, organizations such as Hagenah, especially Palmach, Irgun and the Lehi (aka, the Stern Gang) engaged in numerous deadly undertakings against the British and Palestinians which most observers would regard as terrorist activities. Few religions, even in modern times, have clean hands. Terrorists or patriots depending on POV.
excuse me Schlimm, the Irgun, Lehi, and Hagganah never went into British Schools to kill British children. The targets were exclusively Governmental and Military, exclusively.
On one occasion, a group of British soldiers with a weapons transport was captured by the Irgun in a vacant area far from any British base. The Irgun soldiers ordered the British soldiers to load all the weapons, including those on their persons, into one of the ramshackle trucks the Irgun had borrowed from a farm collective. It was hot day. Midway through the loading process, the Irgun commander called time out, and unpacked a crate of organges that happened to be on the truck, and gave every soldlier, both the British and his own, an orange to eat.
The Irgun, Lehi, and Hagganah used the American Revolution as thier model for conduct. (Members of my own New York Congregation fought in Washington;s Army. Contact me at daveklepper@yahoo.com and I'll attach a scanned letter from GW.) The "massacer"at the two refugee camps was caused by Lebanese Chhristians, and Shaaron lost his command because of his inadvertantly allowing it to happen. And the King David Hotel was completely in use by the British military, was their command headquarters, and was blown up only after 15 minutes after the British commander received a phonecall telling him to evacuate the building.
Schlimm, it is the kind of thinking you exhibit that is causing countless deaths of Christians today in the Middle East. Because doctors that claim to cure a disease when theya are only treating symptoms can cause death. The big problem in the World today is Islamic Fundamentalims and the terror it produces. The terror wiped out the Jewish community of Hebron in 1929, a community that had existed there from around 1600, with excellent relations with their Arab neighbors until Hajj Amin Husseini became Mufti. And he channged Islalm to produce the ISIS of today.
Not only did Jewish partisans fighting for an independent Israel never attack civilians the way the PLO and Hamas do, but no French, Russian, Dutch, Polish, or Czeck partisans ever attacked German chidlren.
I've read the translations of the "Palestinian" textbooks. Glad to attach them to you via return email.
ecall that the Canadians did forestall two terrorist attacks on railroads, one being the NY - Toronto train. Forget the specific details, someone else can supply.
15 of the 16 perpetrators of WTC-Pentagon picked up thier visas at a Riyadh credit card office (of a USA company) simply by showinig a Saudi ID card. Which also, of course, could possible have been faked, I would guess. Previously just as now and just as in Israel, one would have to go the consulate, fill an application, and then wait while referenceds were checked.
Carter in effect ordered the Shah to step down. Read the papers of the period, please. Similarly, Obama ordered Murburack.
It all depends upon whose ox is being gored. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
CSSHEGEWISCH It all depends upon whose ox is being gored. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Nonsense. One who indiscriminately attacks civilians and civilian infrastructure with the aim of terrorizing the population for political ends is a terrorist. He may call himself a 'freedom fighter', on the theory that the end deserves any means, but he is not. He is a criminal of the vilest sort.
All of this is wildly off-topic. The deliberate stoning of trains by idle youth is dangerous vandalism, to be sure, but not terrorism, unless these youth are engaged in a political movement. In this day it is not inconceivable, but no group has taken credit for NER 188.
Has the NTSB downplayed the stoning factor in the wreck for fear of offending some people? I certainly hope not. Have they concluded it was not a factor for empirical reasons? I don't know; does anyone not involved in the investigation?
daveklepperCarter in effect ordered the Shah to step down. Read the papers of the period, please.
What papers? You make claims that do not check out in a Google search. You should be able to provide at least one reputable link.
The Stein Gang sent letter bombs! And how did the British government and military suddenly become so evil that you rather cavalierly dismiss the many fatal terrorist attacks on them? They were legitimately in Palestine under international law. The modern state of Israel was founded on terrorism, gaining legitimacy only after a fait accompli. Tell the families of British officials their fathers and sons that they were "oppressors" deserving to die at the hands of Israelis.
daveklepper15 of the 16 perpetrators of WTC-Pentagon picked up thier visas at a Riyadh credit card office (of a USA company) simply by showinig a Saudi ID card. Which also, of course, could possible have been faked, I would guess. Previously just as now and just as in Israel, one would have to go the consulate, fill an application, and then wait while referenceds were checked.
Again, a statement made by you which is pure fiction without any sourcing. Here is a detailed account taken from the 9-11 commision report::
November 2, 1997-June 20, 2001: Hijackers Obtain US VisasThe 19 hijackers apply and receive a total of 23 visas at five different posts from November 1997 through June 2001. Hani Hanjour, Khalid Almidhar, Saeed Alghamdi and Ahmed Alnami, Saudi citizens, apply twice at Jeddah. Only Hanjour applies for a student visa, others for tourist/business visa. [United States General Accounting Office, 10/21/2002 pdf file; 9/11 Commission, 8/21/2004, pp. 7-45 pdf file]
daveklepperAnd the King David Hotel was completely in use by the British military, was their command headquarters, and was blown up only after 15 minutes after the British commander received a phonecall telling him to evacuate the building.
Several warning calls were made but none were directly to any british officials. The terrorists were dressed as Arabs, BTW. The casualties?
"91 people were killed, most of them being staff of the hotel or Secretariat: 21 were first-rank government officials; 49 were second-rank clerks, typists and messengers, junior members of the Secretariat, employees of the hotel and canteen workers; 13 were soldiers; 3 policemen; and 5 were members of the public. By nationality, there were 41 Arabs, 28 British citizens, 17 Palestinian Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian. 46 people were injured."
daveklepperSchlimm, it is the kind of thinking you exhibit that is causing countless deaths of Christians today in the Middle East.
I resent such a statement. Deaths of Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists in the Middle East are caused by selfishness, over-reliance on weapons to solve human problems, and an inability for the parties concerned to negotiate rational compromises.
I understand your resentment. You wish to blame everybody as a fair person. Sure, and the Christian Science Monitor in Boston and several British papers ran edidtiorials at the time Hitler got his way with the Nuremberg Laws. All these editorials said essentially: "Well, of course Jews have too much influence in German culture and its economy." So the Hitler menace grew to affect most of the World. And the Mufti who recasted Islam was a friend and corrispondant of Hitler even before Hitler became Germany's Chancellor. I can provide you with many, not a few, examples of Jewisih Israeli unselfishness toward "Palestinians" and other mideast Arabs and Muslims. Just contact me at my email address, and I will attach the imformation. Carter did negotiate a good compromse when Egypt got back the Sinei after loosing it to Israel in a war Egypt started. But Sadat was a statesman, generally concerned about the welfare of his people, and not undully influenced by the Nazi-like theology of Hajji Aman Hussieni. Israel, Jordan, Egypt, and now even Saudi Arabia, could get together and work out a compromise, but both the PLO and Hamas have been teaching children since 1996 that the total destruction of Israel is inevitable and that they, the children, should take park in this destruction. The portions of the Koran that specifically deliniate the Jewish claim to the Holy Land are not taught, nor is the history of the real start of Zionism when Muslim Arabs invited 70 Jewish families to return to Jerusalem after driving out the European Crusdaders. (And incidentally allowed certain Monestaries and Convents to continue to function.)
The new Saudi King had organized an interfaith conference, and at least one Orthodox and Zionist Jew was there, Rabbi David Rose, and met the King and explained in simple terms the importance of The Holy Land to the Jewish People. But he (the new King) could not (yet?) iinvite the event to be in his own country. May the day come soon.
Schlimm, like Obama and Kerry, you don't want to recognize the problem. Isalmic Fundamentalsim is a powerful force, as Naziism was in the 1930's. I can tolerate your resentment and still say what I believe the truth.
KingDavid Hotel: The call was placed to the British Commander. He refused to take the call. He said. "I do not take orders from Jews."
According to an article in the National Review, issue of February or March 2002, the WTC and Pentagon hijackers picked up their visas by showing their Saudi identity cards at a Riyadh credit card office. The information was then transmitted to the relevent American offices where the records were kept, just possibly making it possible to make the claim that the Visas were picked up at these offices. This matter was repeated in the National Review with a later article stating that the lady who was the State Department official who put the easy-access plan into effect was retiring. Do I need to contact the NR and get print-outs of this matter?
Don't bother. The official 9-11 commission report is a lot more credible than a right wing rag like NR.
can you attach the relevent part of the report as an email attachment to me at daveklepper@yahoo.com ? If I need to be corrected on this matter, I would like the evidence first hand. I do not choose to go public with the name of the credit car company but can provide it for you in a personal message.
So, about Amtrak 188...
Apologies, I read the quote from the report. Further evidence is not necessary. The report is from an accounting office in Washington that received information from the Consular Offices and the Embassy. It is second-hand information. At may be, of course, that National Review was lying. But it also may be true that the transmittal was a regular routing and the actual delivery of the visas did take place as that "rag" as you call it declaiared. The repeat of the information when the woman retired makes me suspect the latter.
But the fundamental issue is that if the real threat of Islamic Fundamentalist ideology had been recognized, both in the Clinton and in the subsequent Bush Administrations, the tragedies would not have happened. The very fact that some of these went to flying school and did not bother to stay to learn to land the plane would have been a red flag.
Another correction and apology. There was one time when Allies targeted civilians during WWII. After the Germans had carpet bombed the historic and non-military city of Coventry, as soon as Allied air-superiority was established the British fire-bombed Dresden, also a non-military target.
Much of Dresden has been rebuilt, to appear exactly as it did before WWII, including the jewel of the Semper Opera House.
daveklepper Another correction and apology. There was one time when Allies targeted civilians during WWII. After the Germans had carpet bombed the historic and non-military city of Coventry, as soon as Allied air-superiority was established the British fire-bombed Dresden, also a non-military target. Much of Dresden has been rebuilt, to appear exactly as it did before WWII, including the jewel of the Semper Opera House.
Coventry air raid: November 14, 1940. 507 killed.
Dresden air raid and firestorm: Feb. 13-15, 1945. 22,700 to 25,000 killed, long after the allies had achieved first air superiority and by Feb 1944, air supremacy over German skies.
Dresden became a target as it was a transportation hub for the German army, especially those retreating from the Russsians.
Was the attack necessary? People have been arguing that one for 70 years. Generals Patton and Montgomery thought bombing civilian centers was a waste of effort, if not downright immoral, but who are we to judge at this late date?
I didn't live through the era. I wasn't there. I didn't lose any friends or relatives to German bombs so I can't really blame the British if they took the attitude of "paybacks a b****" or "you sowed the wind, now reap the whirlwind."
I know how Sir Arthur Harris, CO of RAF Bomber Command felt about it. His instructions to the crews prior to the Hamburg raid: "Start a fire in the belly of the enemy that will burn his black heart out!"
Taking it back to the railroads, the marshalling yards at Dresden has been bombed several times before, crippling transportation, but not destroying civilians. The bombing in February, repeatedly over three days, needlessly destroyed residential and commercial areas and largely killing civilians, deliberately. Along with incendiaries, delayed detonation fragmentation bombs were also dropped to kill firemen and first responders. What if anything was accomplished militarily? Very little. Germany was already defeated and surrendered in three months. Some allied air force POWs may have also perished there, according to Vonnegut among others.
I consider Harris and Trenchard two of the worse monsters of WWII.
Carefully left undiscussed in most histories of WWII was the targeting of French railway personnel for 'Hades ab altar' courtesy of both the Eighth Air Force and numerous P47 sweeps. I'd have made much more of that if I'd been on the receiving end, whether making excuses for serving SNCF under Vichy or not.
schlimm Germany was already defeated and surrendered in three months. Some allied air force POWs may have also perished there, according to Vonnegut among others.
Germany was already defeated and surrendered in three months. Some allied air force POWs may have also perished there, according to Vonnegut among others.
A war is not over until the opposing leadership has 'signed on the dotted line' and told their forces to cease any agressive actions or defensive actions. Three months before the end - the 'true believers' still held the view that German victory was inevitable.
Even after the opposition has signed the surrender documents - there still remains the job of 'pacifying' the civilian population.
Well said, BaltACD.
Let me add a bit more. I've got a remarkable book here in the archives called "Lucky Forward," written in 1948 by Robert S. Allen who was a professional journalist and during the war was a US Army lieutenant colonel and General Patton's assistant G-2, that's military intellegence for you non-veterans out there.
Colonel Allen told the story of a captured German major general who had designed part of the West Wall (Siegfried Line) defenses and offered to show Patton and his staffers the best way to punch through it. When asked why he was very blunt about his reasons. He said the Nazis were NOT going to give up, they knew what was waiting for them if they lost, suicide or a hangmans rope. They were going to keep the war going as long as they possibly could and had the means and terror organizations to see that the rest of the Germans fought to the bitter end with them. So, anything this German general could do to hasten the end of the war and save his countrymen from Hitler he was going to do, even if it meant turning coat.
Colonel Allen said it was one of the best briefings he attended during the war. He also didn't give the mans's name and I can understand why.
Peace is wonderful, it's always to be preferred to war, but it only works when both sides want it.
I fail to see how either response justifies Dresden, either militarily or cowing the civilians. If you had talked to as many Germans who were adults during the war as I did, you would have a different opinion.
What happened at Dresden will never be resolved to anyone's satisfaction.
Which doesn't bother me. Only the good guys look back at what they did during a war and question whether what they did was really necessary.
I hope we always question what we did. It means we're a good people.
Firelock76 I hope we always question what we did. It means we're a good people.
Many have said it would not be possible for some one to throw a rock through a open side window of the locomotive and strike the engineer, momentarily incapacitating him .... stranger things have been documented as happening
Firelock76 Robert S. Allen
Robert S. Allen
http://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/25/obituaries/robert-s-allen-political-columnist.html
http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2010/09/a-most-unlikely-agent.html
http://www.pattonhq.com/textfiles/resign.html
Interesting links Wanswheel.
By the way, Colonel Allen makes no mention of himself losing an arm in "Lucky Forward." Patton himself mentions it in "War As I Knew It," also Colonel Allens recapture from the Germans.
And if any of you ever see a copy of "Lucky Forward" out there, grab it! It's one of the best books to come out of World War Two from a first-hand participant with a front row seat.
wanswheel Firelock76 Robert S. Allen Interesting character himself. Lost an arm in the war. http://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/25/obituaries/robert-s-allen-political-columnist.html http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2010/09/a-most-unlikely-agent.html http://www.pattonhq.com/textfiles/resign.html
Firelock: Here's a book I would recommend: Snow and Steel: The Battle of the Bulge, 1944-45 , Peter Caddick-Adams
Thanks for the tip Schlimm, I'll have to go on the hunt for it.
Hey, the thrill of the hunt's what it's all about!
BaltACD Many have said it would not be possible for some one to throw a rock through a open side window of the locomotive and strike the engineer, momentarily incapacitating him .... stranger things have been documented as happening
Seems unlikely the engineer would have had the side window open in an area known for rock-throwing vandalism, especially after he had just heard word of two strikes on southbound trains.
Was the side window open? Was there a stone found in the cab?
If a rock was thrown, either A. It entered the cab through an open window, hit the engineer's head, mildly stunning him, deflected at a 15 degree angle and passed on out through the other side's open window; or B. Bounced off the window since the train was moving above 80 mph and most people would close it well below that speed, naturally.
Certainly, it would be possible for a rock to pass through an open window and strike an engineer, but I don't think that happened in the case of 188. However, I believe there is a fair chance that the windshield was hit by a rock or other thrown object. And I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that nobody has yet proven that did not happen. I also will bet that we never hear another official peep about the possibility of rock throwing, or any explanation of what caused the windshield damage.
If a rock did hit the windshield, I have no idea of what effect it might have had on the engineer. However, I don't think that anyone posting here has the faintest idea of what kind of experience it would be to have that level of impact and explosive shock wave come right at your face from only a few feet away.
What effect could such an experience have on a person's consciousness and thinking process?
What we have in this accident is something that went from perfectly normal to completely disabling the engineer in a matter of 10-15 seconds.
Euclid: As far as I am concerned, vandalism that causes loss of life is terrorism, regardless of whether or not the terrorist was motivated by any specific theology or cause.
I understand your point. If it was a rock thrown, I have no idea what the motive would have been. My only point is that I can see a plausible explanation for the cause of the derailment being a thrown rock. And I do not believe that such a cause would have required the rock to actually strike the engineer. I do not believe that the engineer was actually struck by a rock.
I do not know one way or another about your last point, otherwise I agree completely.
Vandalism is not generally the same thing as terrorism. They differ in purpose. I would suggest the use of publicaly agreed defintions of words.
'A word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
Vandalism = the willful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property.
Terrorism = the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal.
You have no credible evidence that the windshield, etc. were not examined thoroughly.
schlimmYou have no credible evidence that the windshield, etc. were not examined thoroughly.
I don't claim to have any evidence of whether or not the windshield was examimed. All I am saying is that a credible report will include such a laboratory examination of the windshield and will state the results of that examination. If the investigation final report does not include that, I will consider the investigation and the report to be flawed.
schlimm You have no credible evidence that the windshield, etc. were not examined thoroughly.
Schlimm, while what you say may be true, this is the kind of post that is offensive to the must of the posters (at least this one) and is what starts the thread being locked. I would ask that you refrain from trying to pick fights or arguments.
We don't have knowledge of what the investigation has determined yet and until we do, we can speculate. Things we do know include a SEPTA train being rocked. And Bostian alerting it to his approach.
Bostian seems like what we want in an engineer, it is reasonable to give him any benefit of the doubt until all the evidence is in. I concur that the possibility of something impacting the ACS-64 could be involved. He took the Southbound Acela with no incident to Washington. He passed the substance tests and cooperated with the investigation. I say lets wait until the investigation is complete before jumping to any conclusions. And lets not challenge other posters as if they have commited blasphemy. Please.
Simply stating a fact without rancor, without name-calling, is not picking a fight. Euclid and I respect each other's opinions but feel entirely free to challenge each other.
Excerpt from interview of SEPTA engineer Curtis Parrish
http://dms.ntsb.gov/public/58000-58499/58167/585209.pdf
Q. Okay, Mr. Parrish, like I mentioned before, if you could just give us a run-down leaving 30th Street and what you experienced, and in particular, anything that you remember about the 188 train as he, I understand, he came up and went by you? Over.
A. All right. We left 30th Street at approximately 9:01. Nothing out of the ordinary. Came eastbound through Mantua. I started to increase speed, I was just -- well, in fact, as I was leaving Mantua. And I saw a white light. I don't know what it was. It looked like it could've been somebody carrying a white light. So I decided to blow the horn for them, to make sure they know I was coming. I'm positive it wasn't an employee or an Amtrak employee because they didn't have a whistle board or anything like that. So I just wanted to warn them that a train was coming. As I blew the horn, something hit the windshield and knocked glass into my face and onto the console, then onto my person. As I ducked down, trying to get away from it, I was clutching the door and trying to get out of the door; couldn't get the door open. And I heard a passenger knock on the door because they also heard the sound too. I put the train into emergency, and I finally got the door open and started to call the CTEC 6. I could tell there was a person out there, but I couldn't tell -- I couldn't give a description or anything, because you -- if you're running in the dark, you can tell there's someone out there, but you can't really tell -- you couldn't really tell a description because they were on the 3 track that's on my right. And I'm sure that they weren't trying to be seen anyway, but I digress. I called CTEC 6 and told them that something hit my windshield and shattered the windshield. I don't what it was. I told them that we would had put our train in emergency and we were stopped at milepost 86. They asked me again, you know, where we were, approximately where we were, if anybody was hurt. I told them that no one was hurt, and he asked me again, was -- did I need assistance. So finally, I told him that, okay, you can send assistance, but I don't believe anybody was hurt because I was the only one in the cab obviously. I was, you know, brushing the glass off of me and everything like that. And the Amtrak train was coming east, and I could hear him on the radio saying -- because he saw us stopped, I could hear him on the radio saying we have hot rail on 2. That would be train 188 passing us. That was approximately 15 minutes -- we had been stopped -- maybe 10 minutes after we had been stopped. So he passed us. When he passed us, I didn't see anything out of the ordinary out of 188. It seemed to pass us at normal speed. I don't think he was going any faster than he should've been. It just passed us. But the other train was just, was telling us that a train was coming. I can't even remember if he blew his horn or not, but -- usually that would be the case, but I can't remember if he blew his horn or not. So there was really nothing I could say that was out of the ordinary about 188 passing us. Usually that train does not pass us until later down the road, but since we had been -- we're in emergency and we had stopped because I was making a report to CTEC 6, it passed us earlier than it usually does. It passed us. I tried to make another report to CTEC 6 because he was just trying to make sure we were okay and trying to make sure that he had someone coming to our assistance. That's when our power when out. And when our -- after our power went out and came back on, he told me that he had gotten an emergency call so he couldn't talk to us anymore. Because I didn't yell emergency on the radio. I just knew something hit us, and I was kind of shocked that something hit us. So I didn't yell emergency on the radio. But Amtrak got the emergency call from the 188 train, so we didn't have any more contact with CTEC 6. Outside of that, they sent fire, they sent police to our train. You know, we -- you know, I made sure I gave all the information to the police officers that showed up. I told the EMTs that I did not need assistance and they continued on to the other scene. That's basically everything that happened to our train.
All of the interviews are interesting.
http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=58167&CurrentPage=9&EndRow=135&StartRow=121&order=1&sort=0&TXTSEARCHT
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.