Remember too that I'm almost cackling with joy that Amtrak is buying these things and they will constitute a large incentive to spend even more on improving track work to run them in even limited areas ... likely over 160mph through Princeton Junction now that the crossovers are out ... I'll be watching, and when I get the chance riding; I only hope they are as well-built and reliable as the SC-44s and ACS-64s have been.
From a marketing standpoint it's going to be interesting how Amtrak addresses the relative paucity of actual high speed running these trains do. They certainly have little trouble keeping the public thinking of the Acela service as high speed worth a premium price -- and I'm not going to spend much time spilling the beans to say it's not...
(Especially now that the money's safely spent, the lovely trains are a'building, and the die has been cast to have true HSR grade equipment actually running at last...)
Oh, and a prediction: the best name for the 'second generation' trains and hence the service ought to be 'Acelia' ...
I don't think either of you realize that people are willing to spend more for that service because of the comfort, not the speed. Those people who do are neither naïve nor ignorant about that, no matter what Joe believes. He apparently hates the Triebwagen concept.
charlie hebdo But you probably prefer GG1s, P70s and Clockers of days gone by.
Why not? The trains of today do no better.
charlie hebdoPeople like the Acela I and pay for it instead of more traditional NEC Regional, even though the speed and time benefits are marginally small.
P.T.Barnum had a name for folks who think like you.
This from February 26, 2017.
C:\Users\Joe\Pictures\IMG_20190613_0001.jpg
243129This from February 26, 2017. C:\Users\Joe\Pictures\IMG_20190613_0001.jpg
Sorry - we cannot access your computer.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
file:///C:/Users/Joe/Pictures/HSR%20not%20feasible.pdf
243129 charlie hebdo People like the Acela I and pay for it instead of more traditional NEC Regional, even though the speed and time benefits are marginally small. P.T.Barnum had a name for folks who think like you.
charlie hebdo People like the Acela I and pay for it instead of more traditional NEC Regional, even though the speed and time benefits are marginally small.
Sure go ahead and insult folks when you don't even understand things. Typical NH through Conrail rude attitude.
charlie hebdo 243129 charlie hebdo People like the Acela I and pay for it instead of more traditional NEC Regional, even though the speed and time benefits are marginally small. P.T.Barnum had a name for folks who think like you. Sure go ahead and insult folks when you don't even understand things. Typical NH through Conrail rude attitude.
No insult intended, just stating a fact.
If you actually read with comprehension what others wrote about this instead of repeating your opinion over and over you might just understand that John Q Public chooses Acela for reasons beyond speed or timings. They are neither stupid nor suckers, as you believe. But in your tiny world, any opinion that differs from yours must be attacked in a Trumpian fashion.
An amusing thing here is that each of you is castigating the other for something you yourself espoused earlier, in a way.
Let me start by saying that, in my opinion, the Acela is a 'better' business-class experience than good regional equipment, but nowhere near 'better' enough to justify the price difference. My experience with people who have taken the Acela service is that they're basing most of their decision to pay extra on the perception of high-speed service, not business-class higher amenities. And that is where the P.T.Barnum aspect really comes in: if the speed difference is actually as piddling as statistics make it appear, much if not most of the extra 'agio' to ride Acela is in the sizzle, not the steak.
Meanwhile, Joe's point right from his first letter was that, instead of providing rocket-fast true high-speed capability (on a railroad largely incapable of providing the opportunity to use that capability) Amtrak would have spent the Avelia Liberty money much more tellingly on much more luxurious equipment operating at no more than 125mph peak speed. Which is precisely the argument charlie hebdo is now making for the actual 'competitive advantage' of the current Acela trains, defective though the real added luxuries on those trains are.
I for one would be highly interested to see the effect of reasonable 125mph equipment even with 'legacy' levels of parlor-car amenity and service on NEC operation. These wouldn't throw nearly as much of a prospective wrench into congested service in the areas where that's a factor, and would provide some multiple of the attractiveness of the current services to compete tellingly with most of the competition for the 'extra fare' so many are evidently willing to pay.
I freely admit I'm not one with distinctive competence in 'knowing' what modern folks value most in railroad transit. The best meal I've had on a train involved an "Am-and-cheese" sandwich ... freshly deli-made out of New York, and packed with thick layers of good meat and cheese ... and an individual can of Coke with a large cup of that pebbled ice that works so well with fountain drinks, taken back to one of those legacy 'parlor cars' with individual chairs that you could swing for the best view. (This goes with the best meal on an airplane being on Continental during the era they served high-quality deli sandwiches as the in-flight meal...)
Nowadays one of the main amenities would be free wireless broadband, something that is just not there on Acela any more than on 'other' Amtrak trains that purport to have it. Now, this is not a particularly difficult thing to understand, especially since it has to be 'free' to users as well as offering any amenity programming Amtrak wants to offer -- an Internet feed to a moving train full of people all of whom want 6Mb/s datarate is an interesting technical problem even if you charge a premium for it, and there is comparatively little required 'return' bandwidth for, say, uploading or posting images. My suspicion is that the trick won't work at all until there is a separate primary link for each car, and perhaps multiples modulo x number of passengers; compare this with what a bus (or shorter 'Triebwagen' implementation) would require. All the textured composite and pleather in Spain won't make up for the absence of usable connectivity ... and outlets at every seat, good app support, etc. etc. etc.
And that's before we get into perceived amenities connected with food service. Which are much more a 'thing' justifying higher fares than either increased speed or other aspects related to high-speed train construction that could not have been applied equally or more inexpensively to lower-speed or even regional-speed shells.
I wonder if good "vetting, training, and oversight" could develop a cohort of Amtrak attendants for the second-generation Acelia trains, with thorough focus on real customer service (including inflappability and professional demeanor during the most trying combinations of circumstantial problems) -- and then use this as a cadre to work on LD train service...
All I know from personal experience is that folks I spoke with who had ridden both thought the Acela ride was better. They were aware of the small increase in speed but once they could afford it, they were willing to pay the premium and not use the NEC Regional trains. You and Joe can call them stupid suckers if you wish. The numbers are there.
The advantage of the new equipment is 25% greater capacity as well as more comfort.
243129P.T.Barnum had a name for folks who think like you.
zardoz 243129 P.T.Barnum had a name for folks who think like you. That wasn't very nice.
243129 P.T.Barnum had a name for folks who think like you.
That wasn't very nice.
We live in a 'marketing age' - marketing is selling sizzle. If the customers are satisfied with the sizzle that they have purchased, they will likely return to buy more. If they aren't statisfied with the sizzle, they most likely won't return.
P. T. Barnum was a marketer.
Tell that to P.T. Barnum
charlie hebdoYou and Joe can call them stupid suckers if you wish. The numbers are there.
They're assuredly not 'suckers' -- this is America, and no one forced them to ride regional. The argument, as far as it goes, is that they aren't getting full value for all the additional they're paying. (Doesn't matter if I think it's insufficient, either; just that it could be a much better perceived bang for the buck were that buck to go into real amenities.)
charlie hebdoThe advantage of the new equipment is 25% greater capacity as well as more comfort.
There are likely plenty more advantages than those. I'm glad we're getting the new trains now that the deal's been done, and I frankly hope they succeed so wildly as to drive priorities to increase their functional speed between destination pairs.
I suspect a 'dirty little secret' is that some great part of allocation of funds to these trains was driven by political considerations, and there's no practical way the full amount, perhaps even a significant fraction of it, would have been provided either for 125mph alternative or for 'luxurizing' some of the existing 125mph-capable stock. So this was never really the 'either-or' that Joe was working from.
OvermodOh, and a prediction: the best name for the 'second generation' trains and hence the service ought to be 'Acelia' ...
Sounds like an ointment does it not?
243129 Overmod Oh, and a prediction: the best name for the 'second generation' trains and hence the service ought to be 'Acelia' ... Sounds like an ointment does it not?
Overmod Oh, and a prediction: the best name for the 'second generation' trains and hence the service ought to be 'Acelia' ...
More like a flowering bush, a compact Canadian car, or the 'boutique' upscale marketing version of an elastic bandage.
(Unlike "Acela" which is the name of a skin condition from drinking too much vinegar.)
Overmod The argument, as far as it goes, is that they aren't getting full value for all the additional they're paying.
But people are riding them. So apparently they(or their employer) think they are getting full value.
I mean, you can use a 1992 Camry for all your driving needs as well.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Overmod 243129 Overmod Oh, and a prediction: the best name for the 'second generation' trains and hence the service ought to be 'Acelia' ... Sounds like an ointment does it not? More like a flowering bush, a compact Canadian car, or the 'boutique' upscale marketing version of an elastic bandage.
Ah I can see the ad now.....'Hemorrhoids? Try Acelia. It's a high speed cure!'
charlie hebdo If you actually read with comprehension what others wrote about this instead of repeating your opinion over and over you might just understand that John Q Public chooses Acela for reasons beyond speed or timings. They are neither stupid nor suckers, as you believe. But in your tiny world, any opinion that differs from yours must be attacked in a Trumpian fashion.
So you advocate spending taxpayer dollars for no gain other than eye appeal and amenities when the same end can be achieved for considerably less taxpayer dollars?
243129Ah I can see the ad now.....'Hemorrhoids? Try Acelia. It's a high speed cure!'
I need to give you a crash course in user marketing - you missed the obvious slogan here: HSR stands for High Speed Relief!
More fun with the little suppositories that look like bullets lined up in a row... (I won't make the obvious pun!)
Overmod 243129 Ah I can see the ad now.....'Hemorrhoids? Try Acelia. It's a high speed cure!' I need to give you a crash course in user marketing - you missed the obvious slogan here: HSR stands for High Speed Relief! More fun with the little suppositories that look like bullets lined up in a row... (I won't make the obvious pun!)
243129 Ah I can see the ad now.....'Hemorrhoids? Try Acelia. It's a high speed cure!'
Pour votre commodité et pour clarification charlie.From post#2:
High speed train travel is not feasible on the Northeast Corridor (NEC). Congress recently approved a 2.45 billion dollar loan package for Amtrak of which a good portion will be spent on twenty eight Generation 2 high speed trains. Why? Generation 1(Acela Express) high speed trains only accomplished a fraction of what they were touted to do. There is no reason to expect Generation 2 to be any different. The reasoning being that you can only travel so fast on the existing roadbed no matter the tilt technology. Generation 1 trains were equipped with the latest tilt system yet could only equal, not exceed, the running time of the 1969 Metroliners between New York and Washington D.C.
The present roadbed with minor deviations dates back to the 1800’s taking a circuitous route to service large population centers and various industries. To attain a true high speed system on the Northeast Corridor there must be a dedicated and exclusive infrastructure built as straight as the geography will allow. The cost and environmental impact of such an undertaking would be astronomical given the real estate values in that portion of the country.
As far back as the 1950’s when the New Haven purchased the Talgo trains and in the 1960’s United Aircraft unveiled it’s state of the art Turbo Liner, they eventually went the way of all of these ‘trains of the future’ since World War II, to the scrap heap. Unitized trains such as the Acela Express (and the aforementioned ‘trains of the future’) have proven not to be practical. Should a car in the consist of the Acela Express become defective the entire train must be removed from service resulting in a massive delay to the travelers. A defective car in an Amfleet style consist may be removed and result in a delay and continuation of the journey.
Amtrak force fed the Acela Express to the traveling public trumpeting it’s airplane style decor, desktop seating replete with USB ports, Wi-Fi, receptacles for recharging sundry electronic devices masking the fact that for the extra cost they did not arrive at their destination much sooner than the Regional Service trains and the time difference was due mainly to the Acela making less stops than the Regional Service trains. Amtrak’s thirty plus year old AEM-7 locomotives with Amfleet coaches and an experienced engineer, were they allowed, could equal Acela Express running time as did the Metroliners of 1969.
The demise of the Supersonic Transport touted as an engineering marvel to revolutionize airplane travel turned out to be a business bust due to high maintenance costs, environmental impact and declining ridership gives credence to the notion that the traveling public is not in that much of a hurry.
The pluses of conventional train travel far outweigh the expense, upheaval and environmental impact that construction of a dedicated roadbed would have on the crowded Northeast Corridor.
The hassle and expense of airline travel coupled with an outdated Interstate system should place the 500 mile and under mode of travel squarely in Amtrak’s lap.
If the bulk of the 2,45 billion dollar loan were used to upgrade the present fleet with all the bells and whistles i.e. USB ports, Wi-Fi, desktop seats etc. the Acela Express would soon be forgotten.
America is not in that much of a hurry. Frequent, dependable, timely train travel trumps enormous outlays of taxpayer dollars for minimal results.
Saying the same old sfuff over and over doesn't change anything. You just don't get it.
charlie hebdo Saying the same old sfuff over and over doesn't change anything. You just don't get it.
Dispute what I say.
243129 charlie hebdo Saying the same old sfuff over and over doesn't change anything. You just don't get it. Dispute what I say.
Why? What didn't work the first time still doesn't work the last time. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Hey Joe, don't get on your high horse commanding people. You have zero influence with authorities and almost nobody on here gives a hoot about your compulsive rants.
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