243129I took a page from your book.
Stick around grasshopper, and I will teach you more of my ways.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
jeffhergertAs to restricted speed being raised to a top speed of 20mph, my quick look at some rule books shows that going back in some cases 50 or more years. Some older books than that don't even have a speed listed. It seems the western roads more likely to have the 20mph top limit. If you go back really far, the only way to proceed past a red signal was to have a flagman preceed the movment by 10 minutes to the next signal.
Back in the late '50s, when I was in the S & C dept. of the PRR, the cab signals lowest speed control setting was for RESTRICTING which was for NO code reception and the speed allowed was 20 mph. Above which an alarm whistle would sound and if no action was taken by the engineer (hitting the acknowedge lever and making a brake reduction} a penalty brake application (dump) would occur. So 20 mph for restricting goes back to way before then.
[quote user="zugmann"]
As a supervisor once told me: "you're only as good as your last screw up".
My road foreman once told me that one "aw sh*t" cancels alot of "attaboys".
Whose aw sh.t????
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Euclid BaltACD I view threads as a conversation among 'friends' that in most cases have never met each other personally. Conversations among friends rarely remain 'on point' and wander all over the landscape as things happen in a 'stream of consciousness' manner from all the participants. You may view it that way, but that is not the way it is. Being friendly is fine, and there is plenty of lattitude to wander around in the topic, but wandering all over the landscape in a stream of consciousness is not possible if a thread follows a topic as it is indended to do by the very format here. Threads have titles. They convey the topic. If you want to wander all over the landscape in a stream of consciousness, you have the Chatterbox for that. That is the "Off topic" thread. You and your friends can have fun and wander around there.
BaltACD I view threads as a conversation among 'friends' that in most cases have never met each other personally. Conversations among friends rarely remain 'on point' and wander all over the landscape as things happen in a 'stream of consciousness' manner from all the participants.
C'mon, man. You, I, and others veered off into a discussion of U.S. trade policy in that thread about the decline in rail traffic. Did you consider that to be hijacking? As others have pointed out, discussions between human beings seldom proceed in a linear fashion.
PsychotC'mon, man. You, I, and others veered off into a discussion of U.S. trade policy in that thread about the decline in rail traffic. Did you consider that to be hijacking? As others have pointed out, discussions between human beings seldom proceed in a linear fashion.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Aw... did da widdle darwinian's ego and self-worth take a hit worse that the over-rated car? Crossing protection just there for aesthetics? Common sense challenged?
(after doing an accident survey for a railroad-pedestrian incident yesterday, I'm primed. Knocked outta their shoes (found side-by-side) as per usual.
mudchicken Aw... did da widdle darwinian's ego and self-worth take a hit worse that the over-rated car? Crossing protection just there for aesthetics? Common sense challenged? (after doing an accident survey for a railroad-pedestrian incident yesterday, I'm primed. Knocked outta their shoes (found side-by-side) as per usual.
Poor baby!!
BaltACDI agree, it takes a big pair for someone to use that Emergency brake valve and for a trainee to do it take a nearly impossible big pair. Be that as it may, if they don't do it and the accident takes place they have forfeit their opportunity to have prevented the incident and will suffer the consequence.
Let's look at the other side of that, suppose the trainee hits the brake control, avoids the mishap, but the seasoned engineer and conductor maintain that the trainee's action was unwarranted... (I just don't envision the old heads agreeing "hey the kid saved us") is the trainee going to be disciplined for his action?
Seems like a can't win situation.
EuclidHijacking a thread to start a new unrelated topic is rude to the original poster. It is also a rules violation. It is also pointless and unnecessary.
Just like earlier in this thread when you posted "Yes, when I wake up in the morning, the first thing on my mind is to make sure the gene pool is clean."...
Convicted One BaltACD I agree, it takes a big pair for someone to use that Emergency brake valve and for a trainee to do it take a nearly impossible big pair. Be that as it may, if they don't do it and the accident takes place they have forfeit their opportunity to have prevented the incident and will suffer the consequence. Let's look at the other side of that, suppose the trainee hits the brake control, avoids the mishap, but the seasoned engineer and conductor maintain that the trainee's action was unwarranted... (I just don't envision the old heads agreeing "hey the kid saved us") is the trainee going to be disciplined for his action? Seems like a can't win situation.
BaltACD I agree, it takes a big pair for someone to use that Emergency brake valve and for a trainee to do it take a nearly impossible big pair. Be that as it may, if they don't do it and the accident takes place they have forfeit their opportunity to have prevented the incident and will suffer the consequence.
I too thought of that scenario, and I agree with you. No-win.
Electroliner 1935 jeffhergert As to restricted speed being raised to a top speed of 20mph, my quick look at some rule books shows that going back in some cases 50 or more years. Some older books than that don't even have a speed listed. It seems the western roads more likely to have the 20mph top limit. If you go back really far, the only way to proceed past a red signal was to have a flagman preceed the movment by 10 minutes to the next signal. Back in the late '50s, when I was in the S & C dept. of the PRR, the cab signals lowest speed control setting was for RESTRICTING which was for NO code reception and the speed allowed was 20 mph. Above which an alarm whistle would sound and if no action was taken by the engineer (hitting the acknowedge lever and making a brake reduction} a penalty brake application (dump) would occur. So 20 mph for restricting goes back to way before then.
jeffhergert As to restricted speed being raised to a top speed of 20mph, my quick look at some rule books shows that going back in some cases 50 or more years. Some older books than that don't even have a speed listed. It seems the western roads more likely to have the 20mph top limit. If you go back really far, the only way to proceed past a red signal was to have a flagman preceed the movment by 10 minutes to the next signal.
The speed setting may have been for 20 mph, but the PRR rules (1956) had restricted speed defined as a top speed of 15 mph. PC (1968) and Conrail (1985) rules still had 15 mph as the top speed of restricted speed.
Until fairly recently restricted speed was a definition. I don't know about NORAC, but it was the third edition of GCOR (1990s) that finally changed it from a definition to an actual rule.
Jeff
Lithonia OperatorI agree with you. No-win.
I think there is an unwritten rule of sorts that insists that the student is subordinate to the teacher.
There have been several times in my career where I felt my superior to be in some way incompetent, but to seize the controls falls into the realm of "mutiny", to my way of thinking.
Lithonia Operator Convicted One BaltACD I agree, it takes a big pair for someone to use that Emergency brake valve and for a trainee to do it take a nearly impossible big pair. Be that as it may, if they don't do it and the accident takes place they have forfeit their opportunity to have prevented the incident and will suffer the consequence. Let's look at the other side of that, suppose the trainee hits the brake control, avoids the mishap, but the seasoned engineer and conductor maintain that the trainee's action was unwarranted... (I just don't envision the old heads agreeing "hey the kid saved us") is the trainee going to be disciplined for his action? Seems like a can't win situation. I too thought of that scenario, and I agree with you. No-win.
Convicted One Lithonia Operator I agree with you. No-win. I think there is an unwritten rule of sorts that insists that the student is subordinate to the teacher. There have been several times in my career where I felt my superior to be in some way incompetent, but to seize the controls falls into the realm of "mutiny", to my way of thinking.
Lithonia Operator I agree with you. No-win.
It is not mutiny and should never be considered to be mutiny. That extra valve is there for a reason, and the reason is to resolve any disagreement in the interest of taking the safest course.
The train probably passed the last block signal (red non-absolute) way over restricted speed. If he had pulled the air, even if they still would have rear ended the train ahead, I think he may have been shown leniency and still had a job. Being new, he could truthfully say he didn't know the exact signal locations. Once past the signal, doing nothing sealed his fate.
Had this happened on a different jurisdiction of the same railroad, the new hire may have been shown some leniency anyway. Some areas were heavy handed in assessing discipline in every situation, and this area was one of them.
EuclidIt is not mutiny and should never be considered to be mutiny
So you are saying that it should be seen as acceptable for nonvetted and not fully trained employee to seize the controls? Not comforting to think about.
jeffhergertThe train probably passed the last block signal (red non-absolute) way over restricted speed. If he had pulled the air, even if they still would have rear ended the train ahead, I think he may have been shown leniency
Over the course of your career, on trains where you are the engineer, how many times have you had a fellow employee in the same control cab as you are, "pull the air" ?
Convicted One Euclid It is not mutiny and should never be considered to be mutiny So you are saying that it should be seen as acceptable for nonvetted and not fully trained employee to seize the controls? Not comforting to think about.
Euclid It is not mutiny and should never be considered to be mutiny
243129 The engineer on the westbound crude consist is 'toast'. The conductor is also culpable. The trainee has recourse with good union representation.
The engineer on the westbound crude consist is 'toast'. The conductor is also culpable. The trainee has recourse with good union representation.
I would venture that the trainee would be reinstated given the circumstances. He is after all still a student who has not yet graduated.
So here we have a thread expounding the importance of having road personnel who are properly hired, vetted, supervised, and trained, yet some are advocating that someone who is neither vetted or fully trained (nor competently supervised for the narrow purposes of this discussion) should just seize control?
Can we really have our cake and eat it too?
When I was working - a saying floated around the Division.
'You weren't truly a NS employee unless you had been fired at least once.'
FWIW
Convicted One So here we have a thread expounding the importance of having road personnel who are properly hired, vetted, supervised, and trained, yet some are advocating that someone who is neither vetted or fully trained (nor competently supervised for the narrow purposes of this discussion) should just seize control? Can we really have our cake and eat it too?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
(Respectfully) You can spin it however you choose, but in practice regardless if the not fully trained student grabs the brake OR the throttle, it seems to defy the very premise of this thread.....remember, only personnel who have been properly hired, vetted, supervised, and trained are competent to operate the locomotive.
Murphy Siding- just because.
OHHH, so we're playing THAT cassette again are we?
Euclid Lithonia Operator Convicted One BaltACD I agree, it takes a big pair for someone to use that Emergency brake valve and for a trainee to do it take a nearly impossible big pair. Be that as it may, if they don't do it and the accident takes place they have forfeit their opportunity to have prevented the incident and will suffer the consequence. Let's look at the other side of that, suppose the trainee hits the brake control, avoids the mishap, but the seasoned engineer and conductor maintain that the trainee's action was unwarranted... (I just don't envision the old heads agreeing "hey the kid saved us") is the trainee going to be disciplined for his action? Seems like a can't win situation. I too thought of that scenario, and I agree with you. No-win. Before a person other than the engineer dumps the air, that person is going tell the engineer why he thinks it is necessary, unless maybe if the engineer is unable to respond. Otherwise, only if there is a disagreement between the engineer and the other person about the need to stop or just slow down, would the person go ahead and dump the air. What happens after that will determine how blame is distributed. It would be interesting to hear cases of how this sort of disagreement has played out in the past. I don't think it happens very often.
Before a person other than the engineer dumps the air, that person is going tell the engineer why he thinks it is necessary, unless maybe if the engineer is unable to respond. Otherwise, only if there is a disagreement between the engineer and the other person about the need to stop or just slow down, would the person go ahead and dump the air. What happens after that will determine how blame is distributed. It would be interesting to hear cases of how this sort of disagreement has played out in the past. I don't think it happens very often.
Convicted One Murphy Siding - just because. OHHH, so we're playing THAT cassette again are we?
Murphy Siding - just because.
Convicted One(Respectfully) You can spin it however you choose, but in practice regardless if the not fully trained student grabs the brake OR the throttle, it seems to defy the very premise of this thread.....remember, only personnel who have been properly hired, vetted, supervised, and trained are competent to operate the locomotive.
But there's dump handles on the other side of the cab for a reason.
243129 zugmann As a supervisor once told me: "you're only as good as your last screw up"
zugmann As a supervisor once told me: "you're only as good as your last screw up"
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