Has the originator of this thread complained? If so, I do ot remember his complaining.
So far as I know, no one is obligated to read any thread. Indeed, there are some that do not interest me, and I pass them by.
Johnny
Euclid tree68 Euclid Who are you kidding? It is not a time honored tradion here. It is petty and vindictive for the purose of getting even with someone or wrecking some topic that you resent. Time honored tradition--give me a break. I"m willing to bet that you won't have to go back very far to find a dozen threads that have crept off their original subject. Stringlining is a perfect example. There are plenty of others - and the topics are in no way controversial. Some threads never make it back to the subject at hand, but remain active because people are interested in the direction they took. I would not compare this hijacking to the String Lining thread by NDG. He started that thread and made it as a serial style with continuous new material, after starting with the particular string line wreck that occurred at that time. Discussion of that wreck ran its course and NDG, just kept the thread going. It is easily one of the most interesting and constructive threads ever on this forum. I don’t see anything off topic about that thread. There are two kinds of off topic. One is off the topic of the forum and the other is off the topic of a thread. This has turned into both kinds of off topic. Anybody is free to start any thread they want to. So what is the point of hijacking a thread to introduce some new topic? Hijacking a thread to start a new unrelated topic is rude to the original poster. It is also a rules violation. It is also pointless and unnecessary. You have all the space in the world to start a new thread if you really wanted to talk about another topic. I don’t buy the BS that this is just some sort of organic subject drift which is a time honored tradition, and that makes it right. We have seen that rodeo before here.
tree68 Euclid Who are you kidding? It is not a time honored tradion here. It is petty and vindictive for the purose of getting even with someone or wrecking some topic that you resent. Time honored tradition--give me a break. I"m willing to bet that you won't have to go back very far to find a dozen threads that have crept off their original subject. Stringlining is a perfect example. There are plenty of others - and the topics are in no way controversial. Some threads never make it back to the subject at hand, but remain active because people are interested in the direction they took.
Euclid Who are you kidding? It is not a time honored tradion here. It is petty and vindictive for the purose of getting even with someone or wrecking some topic that you resent. Time honored tradition--give me a break.
I"m willing to bet that you won't have to go back very far to find a dozen threads that have crept off their original subject. Stringlining is a perfect example. There are plenty of others - and the topics are in no way controversial.
Some threads never make it back to the subject at hand, but remain active because people are interested in the direction they took.
I would not compare this hijacking to the String Lining thread by NDG. He started that thread and made it as a serial style with continuous new material, after starting with the particular string line wreck that occurred at that time. Discussion of that wreck ran its course and NDG, just kept the thread going. It is easily one of the most interesting and constructive threads ever on this forum. I don’t see anything off topic about that thread.
There are two kinds of off topic. One is off the topic of the forum and the other is off the topic of a thread. This has turned into both kinds of off topic. Anybody is free to start any thread they want to. So what is the point of hijacking a thread to introduce some new topic?
Hijacking a thread to start a new unrelated topic is rude to the original poster. It is also a rules violation. It is also pointless and unnecessary. You have all the space in the world to start a new thread if you really wanted to talk about another topic. I don’t buy the BS that this is just some sort of organic subject drift which is a time honored tradition, and that makes it right. We have seen that rodeo before here.
Deggesty said:
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This has nothing to do with being obligated to read a thread.
DeggestyHas the originator of this thread complained? If so, I do ot remember his complaining. So far as I know, no one is obligated to read any thread. Indeed, there are some that do not interest me, and I pass them by.
I view threads as a conversation among 'friends' that in most cases have never met each other personally. Conversations among friends rarely remain 'on point' and wander all over the landscape as things happen in a 'stream of consciousness' manner from all the participants.
A mentions something, B brings up something that is similar to what A said, but different and the conversation is 'off to the races'.
Threads are not legal proceedings and don't have to 'remain on point' as if it was a interrogation to judge guilt or innocence or degree of liability.
This forum is for the FUN of the participants - Nothing more and Nothing less.
Have Fun!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
[quote user="SD70Dude"] [quotes from otherposters omitted] A incident report from a similar collision, where a intermodal rear-ended a mixed freight at about 25 mph:
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2011/r11e0063/r11e0063.html
[/quote]
Although I didn't read every word, I did see this near the end, under Analysis and The Accident (emphasis added - I kid you not!):
Train Q101 was travelling at 37 mph as it approached signal 2625N. During the approach, the crew's mental model was based upon the following misconceptions:
- PDN.
Did someone hijack this thread? Somebody made mention of a skipping record, and that devolved into a side discussion on audio equipment and the like. Hardly a hijack.
But I suppose a hijack is in the eye of the beholder. However, there is still discussion going on relative to the original topic. So, no - this thread has not been hijacked.
Maybe it's not going the way some folks would like it to go, but that doesn't mean it's been hijacked.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
DeggestyHas the originator of this thread complained?
Yes.
I think several posts have returned discussion to the original thread topic of collisions. Talking about hijacking, etc. Is a diversion.
BaltACD I view threads as a conversation among 'friends' that in most cases have never met each other personally. Conversations among friends rarely remain 'on point' and wander all over the landscape as things happen in a 'stream of consciousness' manner from all the participants.
[quote user="Paul_D_North_Jr"]
There was a rear ender at Bradford, IA about 10 or 12 years ago. The engr had been in my engineer's class. As I recall, they hit the rear end in the high 20s/low 30s mph. By listening to radio conversations they thought the train ahead of them was farther away. They didn't realize there was another train inbetween them and the train they heard on the radio.
No one was seriously injured in the incident. The engr, condr and a new-hire student making his first trip were fired. The engr got his job back on a technicality that I no longer remember. He didn't last long, getting into trouble again. The second time he quit before being fired. He went to work, the OP will like this, for Amtrak but in train service.
Jeff
I like NDG's "Sting Lining" thread, it gives us some Canadian content we wouldn't get otherwise. I've learned a lot, and I enjoy see our cousins north of the border playing "remember when." Interesting stuff.
And I don't mind showing my age! Kind of a relief not getting proofed anymore when I visit the liquor store!
OvermodYou 'tuned' it by moving a pointed wire from place to place on the crystal looking for 'just the right spot'.
Called a "CATS WISKER" I remember winding coils on oatmeal boxes.
EuclidYou may view it that way, but that is not the way it is.
Yet you persist with off-topic posts about off-topic posts.
Deleted
Deggesty Overmod, I was actually thinking of the radios that could be used whether you had AC or DC power coming into your house. The heaters of the tubes were wired in series so you did not need a transformer to provide that power, and a half-wave rectifier was wired in so that DC would flow right through it to provide amplifying power. The standard arrangement was three tubes with 12.6 volt heaters. one with a 35 volt heater (rectifier), and one with a 50 volt heater (output). This arrangement of tubes was called "The All-American Lineup."
Overmod, I was actually thinking of the radios that could be used whether you had AC or DC power coming into your house. The heaters of the tubes were wired in series so you did not need a transformer to provide that power, and a half-wave rectifier was wired in so that DC would flow right through it to provide amplifying power. The standard arrangement was three tubes with 12.6 volt heaters. one with a 35 volt heater (rectifier), and one with a 50 volt heater (output). This arrangement of tubes was called "The All-American Lineup."
Yep, had one of those and bought an isolation transformer so I could use it as an amplifier for a Heathkit AM/FM tuner I built as a start of my "Hi FI" system in the fifties. Definately NOT Hi Fi but a cheap start to bigger things. Then the Heathkit amp and 1 speaker when I accumulated more cash .
jeffhergert There was a rear ender at Bradford, IA about 10 or 12 years ago. The engr had been in my engineer's class. As I recall, they hit the rear end in the high 20s/low 30s mph. By listening to radio conversations they thought the train ahead of them was farther away. They didn't realize there was another train inbetween them and the train they heard on the radio. No one was seriously injured in the incident. The engr, condr and a new-hire student making his first trip were fired. The engr got his job back on a technicality that I no longer remember. He didn't last long, getting into trouble again. The second time he quit before being fired. He went to work, the OP will like this, for Amtrak but in train service. Jeff
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding jeffhergert There was a rear ender at Bradford, IA about 10 or 12 years ago. The engr had been in my engineer's class. As I recall, they hit the rear end in the high 20s/low 30s mph. By listening to radio conversations they thought the train ahead of them was farther away. They didn't realize there was another train inbetween them and the train they heard on the radio. No one was seriously injured in the incident. The engr, condr and a new-hire student making his first trip were fired. The engr got his job back on a technicality that I no longer remember. He didn't last long, getting into trouble again. The second time he quit before being fired. He went to work, the OP will like this, for Amtrak but in train service. Jeff Why would the new hire student get fired over that? Wouldn't he or she just have been along for the ride, observing? It seems to me that the new hire would have had the potential to be a very safe engineer, having been through that accident.
Why would the new hire student get fired over that? Wouldn't he or she just have been along for the ride, observing? It seems to me that the new hire would have had the potential to be a very safe engineer, having been through that accident.
That does seem incredibly unfair.
Having never been on a train crew, I am a little confused about some of these accidents in this thread.
Is the common theme in all of them that the following train was allowed to be in that block at restricted speed, but they were moving at the upper end of restrictive, and in any event were not obeying the requirement of being able to stop if they saw a train ahead?
Jeff, in the one where the student got fired also, you say there was a train in between them and the one they thought was nearest. But still, they had passed a yellow signal, right?
jeffhergertThe engr, condr and a new-hire student making his first trip were fired. The engr got his job back on a technicality that I no longer remember. He didn't last long, getting into trouble again. The second time he quit before being fired. He went to work, the OP will like this, for Amtrak but in train service.
You are correct I do like that. It confirms my observations on Amtrak's hiring and vetting procedures. It also gives credence to the fact that Amtrak, and perhaps other railroads, are accidents waiting to happen.
Murphy SidingWhy would the new hire student get fired over that? Wouldn't he or she just have been along for the ride, observing? It seems to me that the new hire would have had the potential to be a very safe engineer, having been through that accident.
I agree, that seems grossly unfair.
PsychotThat does seem incredibly unfair.
I can kinda-sorta see the logic in firing them all -- that is a damn dumb mistake to make, and it's not as if the 'student' hadn't been trained/vetted/supervised enough to be out on the road.
To me the 'unfairness' is that the student likely didn't have union representation, and so was helplessly at the receiving end of whatever 'discipline' the railroad decided to mete out. (And I expect the new age of PTC railroads run 'by and for financiers' will be just as hypocritical in hammering the 'little people' for the equivalent of stealing pens and paper clips while lavishly rewarding the schemers at the top... I vividly remember the Burger King debacle a few years ago, before they 'reverse merged' with Horton's to acquire Canadian status for taxes.)
Murphy Siding Why would the new hire student get fired over that? Wouldn't he or she just have been along for the ride, observing? It seems to me that the new hire would have had the potential to be a very safe engineer, having been through that accident.
Depends a lot on how "new" the new hire was. Might very well have had his hand on the throttle at the time.
tree68 Murphy Siding Why would the new hire student get fired over that? Wouldn't he or she just have been along for the ride, observing? It seems to me that the new hire would have had the potential to be a very safe engineer, having been through that accident. Depends a lot on how "new" the new hire was. Might very well have had his hand on the throttle at the time.
Good point. I never thought of that possibility. I was envisioning a guy in the background observing, who might not have gotten much attention if he perked up and said “Hey guys- I don’t think you’re doing that right!”.
Euclid BaltACD I view threads as a conversation among 'friends' that in most cases have never met each other personally. Conversations among friends rarely remain 'on point' and wander all over the landscape as things happen in a 'stream of consciousness' manner from all the participants. You may view it that way, but that is not the way it is. Being friendly is fine, and there is plenty of lattitude to wander around in the topic, but wandering all over the landscape in a stream of consciousness is not possible if a thread follows a topic as it is indended to do by the very format here. Threads have titles. They convey the topic. If you want to wander all over the landscape in a stream of consciousness, you have the Chatterbox for that. That is the "Off topic" thread. You and your friends can have fun and wander around there.
Conversations go where they go - as long as there are humans involved - they always will.
Murphy SidingGood point. I never thought of that possibility. I was envisioning a guy in the background observing, who might not have gotten much attention if he perked up and said “Hey guys- I don’t think you’re doing that right!”.
That being the case, the guy in the background (the instructor) should have perked up and said you are going too fast for the condition.
Psychot Murphy Siding jeffhergert There was a rear ender at Bradford, IA about 10 or 12 years ago. The engr had been in my engineer's class. As I recall, they hit the rear end in the high 20s/low 30s mph. By listening to radio conversations they thought the train ahead of them was farther away. They didn't realize there was another train inbetween them and the train they heard on the radio. No one was seriously injured in the incident. The engr, condr and a new-hire student making his first trip were fired. The engr got his job back on a technicality that I no longer remember. He didn't last long, getting into trouble again. The second time he quit before being fired. He went to work, the OP will like this, for Amtrak but in train service. Jeff Why would the new hire student get fired over that? Wouldn't he or she just have been along for the ride, observing? It seems to me that the new hire would have had the potential to be a very safe engineer, having been through that accident. That does seem incredibly unfair.
Good, Bad or indifferent - Railroads tend to assess discipline to the Entire Crew involved in a incident. The 'logic' being that any of the crew members had the 'authority' and ability to have prevented the incident from happening.
A Engineer operating his train at the upper limit of Restricting Speed, the other members of the crew knew or should have known that the train was being operated IN EXCESS of one half the range of vision for the territory that they could see, therefore they all take the fall. Compliance with the rules is the obligation of EVERY crew member, even trainees as even trainees have had to pass a rules test BEFORE they begin the on job training part of their training.
BaltACDCompliance with the rules is the obligation of EVERY crew member, even trainees as even trainees have had to pass a rules test BEFORE they begin the on job training part of their training.
Do the trainees feel they should not comment on something? I could see a trainee sitting there thinking something was wrong, but keeping his mouth closed out of deference to the engineer, or fear of overstepping authority.
I know that airlines had to change their training after years of crashes due to co-pilots afraid to say something to the pilot.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
Why would the trainee be placed with someone who is obviously not proficient in his craft?
BaltACD Psychot Murphy Siding jeffhergert There was a rear ender at Bradford, IA about 10 or 12 years ago. The engr had been in my engineer's class. As I recall, they hit the rear end in the high 20s/low 30s mph. By listening to radio conversations they thought the train ahead of them was farther away. They didn't realize there was another train inbetween them and the train they heard on the radio. No one was seriously injured in the incident. The engr, condr and a new-hire student making his first trip were fired. The engr got his job back on a technicality that I no longer remember. He didn't last long, getting into trouble again. The second time he quit before being fired. He went to work, the OP will like this, for Amtrak but in train service. Jeff Why would the new hire student get fired over that? Wouldn't he or she just have been along for the ride, observing? It seems to me that the new hire would have had the potential to be a very safe engineer, having been through that accident. That does seem incredibly unfair. Good, Bad or indifferent - Railroads tend to assess discipline to the Entire Crew involved in a incident. The 'logic' being that any of the crew members had the 'authority' and ability to have prevented the incident from happening. A Engineer operating his train at the upper limit of Restricting Speed, the other members of the crew knew or should have known that the train was being operated IN EXCESS of one half the range of vision for the territory that they could see, therefore they all take the fall. Compliance with the rules is the obligation of EVERY crew member, even trainees as even trainees have had to pass a rules test BEFORE they begin the on job training part of their training.
243129 Why would the trainee be placed with someone who is obviously not proficient in his craft?
Lithonia Operator Having never been on a train crew, I am a little confused about some of these accidents in this thread. Is the common theme in all of them that the following train was allowed to be in that block at restricted speed, but they were moving at the upper end of restrictive, and in any event were not obeying the requirement of being able to stop if they saw a train ahead? Jeff, in the one where the student got fired also, you say there was a train in between them and the one they thought was nearest. But still, they had passed a yellow signal, right?
This type of situation makes one wonder how wise it was to change the rules involved in dealing with red intermediate signals. At one time trains were generally required to "stop and proceed" at these red intermediates (there were exceptions, like the G plates placed on intermediate signals located on steep grades) . Now they are just treated as restricting signals and don't require trains to stop before passing them. Given PTC's limitations while trains are operating in restricted mode, perhaps there might be some merit in revisting this change.
Also somewhat disturbing to me is that the maximum permissible speed under the Restricted Speed definition on many railroads has been increased from 15 mph to 20 mph. That 5 extra mph is a big difference when an unexpected obstruction suddenly pops into view.
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