It depends on the railroad and where the incident takes place.
RR police are likely to patrol yards and areas where there have been recent disturbances (vandalism or prior reported tresspassing). A place like Tehachapi Loop or the hump in Barstow will most likely have police presence. If you're talking about a local branch line or spur then the RR might just call the local sherriff.
RR police forces are relatively small, so they tend to focus on the most likely targets of opportunity (yards, shops, etc.) for hobos, vandals and thiefs.
Whether a railroad has an internal police force, relies on a private security company or the local PD depends on management. UP management has seen it fit to have a relatively large police force that patrols major installations and areas around the permanent way. Some shortlines have one cop on staff who mainly patrols the yard such as Pacific Harbor Lines.
wilmette2210If so what was it for?
Here's a "funny irony" story for you.
Several years ago I attended a Norfolk Southern hiring session for conductors. Out of the original field of over 400 applicants, I survived several cuts until I was among the last 20 being considered (for 10 actual openings). The one-on-one interview went very well.....I was encouraged.
But during the session it was mentioned that there were several "wash-out" areas in the training that was to be provided.....and that one of those that had a tendancy to surprise people who failed was the requirement to hang on the side of a car, while it was shoved around. The guy running the show pointed out that for whatever reason some people could do it, while others could not...no rhyme or reason, no bearing on strength,....it just happens so if it happens to you don't feel bad....etc
Anyway I walked out of that training session with a pretty positive expectation that I was gonna get a call ...within the next week to 10 days.
The speil about hanging on that ladder being a "no rhyme or reason" failure point in my anticipated training, really stuck with me.
So much so, that I just HAD to see for myself. I went to a really out of the way siding, one that I had railfanned extensively as a younger man with no mishaps, found an empty auto rack, and hopped on the ladder and started watching my watch.
During my third timed episode I heard the gravel behind me crunching under the weight of an approaching vehicle. A railroad cop no less...my first encounter with one.
As he took my ID, I asked him if I was going to jail, his reply was "not unless you are already in our computers"
And it was at that moment in time I understood that my very positive expectations to be hired, just flew out the window.
Shame too, because I was a real champ hanging on that ladder, after I figured out that the grab hand needs to be one rung above the shoulder.
To his credit, the RR cop was kind, courteous, and efficient.. I was probably more a nusiance to him for just happening to be there during his routine rounds, than anything else.
BUT THEY ARE OUT THERE
Convicted One wilmette2210 If so what was it for? Here's a "funny irony" story for you. Several years ago I attended a Norfolk Southern hiring session for conductors. Out of the original field of over 400 applicants, I survived several cuts until I was among the last 20 being considered (for 10 actual openings). The one-on-one interview went very well.....I was encouraged. But during the session it was mentioned that there were several "wash-out" areas in the training that was to be provided.....and that one of those that had a tendancy to surprise people who failed was the requirement to hang on the side of a car, while it was shoved around. The guy running the show pointed out that for whatever reason some people could do it, while others could not...no rhyme or reason, no bearing on strength,....it just happens so if it happens to you don't feel bad....etc Anyway I walked out of that training session with a pretty positive expectation that I was gonna get a call ...within the next week to 10 days. The speil about hanging on that ladder being a "no rhyme or reason" failure point in my anticipated training, really stuck with me. So much so, that I just HAD to see for myself. I went to a really out of the way siding, one that I had railfanned extensively as a younger man with no mishaps, found an empty auto rack, and hopped on the ladder and started watching my watch. During my third timed episode I heard the gravel behind me crunching under the weight of an approaching vehicle. A railroad cop no less...my first encounter with one. As he took my ID, I asked him if I was going to jail, his reply was "not unless you are already in our computers" And it was at that moment in time I understood that my very positive expectations to be hired, just flew out the window. Shame too, because I was a real champ hanging on that ladder, after I figured out that the grab hand needs to be one rung above the shoulder. To his credit, the RR cop was kind, courteous, and efficient.. I was probably more a nusiance to him for just happening to be there during his routine rounds, than anything else. BUT THEY ARE OUT THERE
wilmette2210 If so what was it for?
Hanging on the side of a stationary car is one thing, hanging on the side of a car that is being shoved over 'excepted' track for a mile or so at 10 MPH is a totally different experience - especially if it is a cut of 10 or more cars and there is slack action in addition of the undulating G forces of the track structure.
In many cases, RR Police have the same Police Powers as city, county and state police and they also have a 'police commission' from the states in which they operate. They are not 'mall security' - they are REAL police and in most case carry firearms.
The 'eyes' of the RR Police, in addition to employees in performance of thier duties, includes civilians that live near the tracks and report situations they see.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Convicted OneDuring my third timed episode I heard the gravel behind me crunching under the weight of an approaching vehicle. A railroad cop no less...my first encounter with one. As he took my ID, I asked him if I was going to jail, his reply was "not unless you are already in our computers" And it was at that moment in time I understood that my very positive expectations to be hired, just flew out the window.
Sheesh, why didn't you just tell him you were in conductor class and needed to verify the best way to do your job in a way the trainers expressed as a significant concern?
The cop should have written you up for diligence in learning, not written you up for trespass or whatever. If he's like most of the railroad police I have met, he'd sympathize more with you than with 'management'...
BaltACDHanging on the side of a stationary car is one thing, hanging on the side of a car that is being shoved over 'excepted' track for a mile or so at 10 MPH is a totally different experience - especially if it is a cut of 10 or more cars and there is slack action in addition of the undulating G forces of the track structure.
Balt, I don't doubt for a second that "operational factors" can make hanging on even more difficult, but the way it was presented to us at the hiring session was that mechanics was the issue.
Expecting to be hired at the time, I didn't want to risk going all the way down to Georgia only to embarass myself over something so simple.....so it was a matter of wanting to dismiss variables.
My first effort was to grasp the rung at waist level, and I quickly saw why this was not a good idea, too much effort dedicated to holding ones self close to the car. finger stress.
Holding a rung high above the head seemed to put too much required effort on the back muscles, and made me feel like a human pendulum. I could have held on, but only if I couldn't avoid it.
But one rung above the shoulder, with the bicep action absorbing most of the movement was really comfortable to me. That would have been the way I would haVE "tested" had I ever gotten the opportunity.
Which is what I went out looking for....the posture I could feel comfortable with.
BaltACDIn many cases, RR Police have the same Police Powers as city, county and state police and they also have a 'police commission' from the states in which they operate. They are not 'mall security' - they are REAL police and in most case carry firearms. The 'eyes' of the RR Police, in addition to employees in performance of thier duties, includes civilians that live near the tracks and report situations they see.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
OvermodSheesh, why didn't you just tell him you were in conductor class and needed to verify the best way to do your job in a way the trainers expressed as a significant concern?
I've thought back to that episode a number of times, and wondered the same thing.
But there is just something about being caught doing something silly, that totally drains your self confidence.
"45 year old man playing choo-choo" was not something I felt like I wanted to try and defend myself against. Plus at the hiring session, the guy running it emphasized over and again the thorough and sifting dilligence of their in-house security. So...seeing the cop as a possible ally just wasn't on the books for that day.
Plus, I realize that most of the people a cop is going to run into in a days time really are up to no good. That is their normal.
But running into "Bambi" testing himself for a possible entrance examination is so far from that normal that I doubt he could have believed it. I mean the rack WAS empty...I had that much going in my favor...but still.
OvermodThe cop should have written you up for diligence in learning,
That just reminded me, the above recapped event was NOT my first experience with RR police.
34-35 years prior the railroads had just implemented the "KarTrak" colored barcode car tracking system. A friend and I found all this quite interesting, and during our examination of a string of boxcars to see what valuable info the colorcodes might offer...a middle aged railroad detective came up on us, thinking we were attempting to break into the cars.
Our alibi of "innocent curiosity" didn't impress him one bit. But he also lied to us, he told us the color codes revealed the cars destination. Why it was important for him to tell us that I'll never understand.
Got off with just a warning that time, too.
He may have said that because he honestly didn't know. A lot of people (including those who should have) didn't have a clue about those stripes.But I doubt that he'd allow you to teach him about the labels yourself. I was fortunate enough to see these labels and decipher them myself without being detained. Of course, I did have a prolem with the "*" strip that occasionally appeared in the validity-check position.
At the time, I had no clue either. But somewhere over the years I came into possession of a key that laid it all out. A relative that had absolutely no connection to railroading passed, and it was among his effects.
CShaveRROf course, I did have a problem with the "*" strip that occasionally appeared in the validity-check position.
Tell me more about this. I assume you are talking about the parity check in line 13.
Calculating the value was bad enough! Even Wikipedia makes it hard to figure out (if you aren't a computer nerd). Each of the numbers encoded by a line is multiplied by 2 to the power of the numerical line position -2 (the reason being the counting was done from computer 0 rather than numerical 1 for first position). Then you multiply the result by powers of two starting with the first numerical line value (which is position 2): 1 for the second line (which is identity multiplication), 2 for the second (which, channelling Tom Lehrer, is of course the third, just checking to ensure you're following along...) up to 512 for the last (10th). Then add up all the numbers modulo 11 and you get the value.
Unfortunately this didn't give you as much error correction capability as it did error recognition -- the deck being stacked against the GTE system almost from the beginning in the understanding of almost anyone who understood the railroad environment. Perhaps it was assumed in the America of the Johnson Administration that the railroads WOULD maintain those labels with flawless perfection because they were Federally mandated ... or something.
Unsurprisingly a colossal flop, abandoned within a decade of practical instantiation. Its chief effect was to inoculate the railroads against any scheme of automated car identification, no matter how good it might have been, until well into the 1980s.
Overmod Its chief effect was to inoculate the railroads against any scheme of automated car identification, no matter how good it might have been, until well into the 1980s.
And now it's all RFID and little gray bricks on the sides of the cars...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
CShaveRR BaltACD In many cases, RR Police have the same Police Powers as city, county and state police and they also have a 'police commission' from the states in which they operate. They are not 'mall security' - they are REAL police and in most case carry firearms. The 'eyes' of the RR Police, in addition to employees in performance of thier duties, includes civilians that live near the tracks and report situations they see. What Balt said, except for the "in many cases" part.
BaltACD In many cases, RR Police have the same Police Powers as city, county and state police and they also have a 'police commission' from the states in which they operate. They are not 'mall security' - they are REAL police and in most case carry firearms. The 'eyes' of the RR Police, in addition to employees in performance of thier duties, includes civilians that live near the tracks and report situations they see.
I stated 'in many cases' because I believe there are a few states where full police powers cannot be conveyed to 'private' police - I could be mistaken. As we learn over time - the exception is always the rule.
BaltACDI stated 'in many cases' because I believe there are a few states where full police powers cannot be conveyed to 'private' police - I
When you first qualified it as "in many cases", I didn't interpret it the same way Cshave did. I took it more along the lines of "selective enforcement", where even if the officer is so empowered, they (still) might elect to not involve themselves.
Two drunks fighting outside a bar as the officer is driving by, or some wino relieving himself on a downtown street corner, or kids with illegal fireworks,....stuff like that. I'm sure there is some "mind your primary duties" type instruction, for productivity as well as possible undue liability.
I believe that most civil law enforcement agencies are sworn to serve the peace, or "greater common good"...or something like that.
Not knowing first hand, but I'd speculate that there is no such requirement for private agencies.
Convicted One I'm sure there is some "mind your primary duties" type instruction, for productivity as well as possible undue liability.
Generally speaking, a police officer only has authority in the juridiction in which he works.
There are exceptions, hot pursuit being the best known. Around here, it's not at all unusual for the small town officers to help each other out and respond outside their jurisdiction, but when it comes down to the arrest, the officer with jurisdiction will generally handle that.
If they happen to be outside their jurisdiction, they may turn a blind eye to offenses with minimal consequence (the drunk), but would probably intervene it was something violent.
Many RR police travel in unmarked vehicles, and not in any uniform, so you wouldn't generally know just exactly who that was that just drove by.
I think you will find that railway police have more authority, in some cases, than the locals. They are ordained by federal law, not local. They were established initially in response to train robberies which were a threat to Postal traffic and interstate commerce. They enforce federal as well as local laws. That's why they are called "special agents".
tree68If they happen to be outside their jurisdiction, they may turn a blind eye
How are jurisdictions determined for RR police? Local? State? Regional? other?
Would a Norfolk Southern RR cop based in Missouri have jurisdiction on Norfolk Southern property in Ohio? Any different off Norfolk Southern property in Ohio?
Convicted OneHow are jurisdictions determined for RR police? Local? State? Regional? other?
Can't answer that, but as someone pointed out, there may be different requirements in different states. It might simply be a matter of some paperwork... I would opine that within a given state, they'd be a lot like the state police - they'd have authority everywhere.
This may be of interest on the topic, from Title 49 of the U.S. Code (at least as of last year’s edition) part of the section shown below which may answer a couple of questions:
§ 28101. Rail police officers
(a) IN GENERAL.—Under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Transportation, a rail police officer who is directly employed by or contracted by a rail carrier and certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of a State may enforce the laws of any jurisdiction in which the rail carrier owns property, to the extent of the authority of a police officer certified or commissioned under the laws of that jurisdiction, to protect—
(1) employees, passengers, or patrons of the rail carrier;
(2) property, equipment, and facilities owned, leased, operated, or maintained by the rail carrier;
(3) property moving in interstate or foreign commerce in the possession of the rail carrier; and
(4) personnel, equipment, and material moving by rail that are vital to the national defense.
ChuckCobleigh This may be of interest on the topic, from Title 49 of the U.S. Code (at least as of last year’s edition) part of the section shown below which may answer a couple of questions: § 28101. Rail police officers (a) IN GENERAL.—Under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Transportation, a rail police officer who is directly employed by or contracted by a rail carrier and certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of a State may enforce the laws of any jurisdiction in which the rail carrier owns property, to the extent of the authority of a police officer certified or commissioned under the laws of that jurisdiction, to protect— (1) employees, passengers, or patrons of the rail carrier; (2) property, equipment, and facilities owned, leased, operated, or maintained by the rail carrier; (3) property moving in interstate or foreign commerce in the possession of the rail carrier; and (4) personnel, equipment, and material mov- ing by rail that are vital to the national de- fense.
(4) personnel, equipment, and material mov- ing by rail that are vital to the national de- fense.
That makes more sense. If I'm a deep pocketed entity with a private police force, I really don't believe that I would want my armed personnel trying to intervene in a domestic dispute where things can powderkeg pretty quick and potential innocent bystanders could become plaintiffs.
RADIO to the local authorities to help expedite a response? Sure....no problem there. But I wouldn't want them out "slumming" to private property engaging private entities over non-rail related issues.
Here in DC, it isn't unheard of to see Amtrak police turn up in odd places. One of the more low key things I've seen was an Amtrak police SUV providing support to a disabled vehicle blocking a lane on the George Washington Memorial Parkway, rather than the US Park Police.
I've also once saw an incident of some sort near Union Station that attracted no less than five different agencies: US Capitol Police, US Park Police, Amtrak Police, Metro PD, and Metro Transit PD.
About who has policing powers on a railroad, Minnesota Statute 629.363 states that "A conductor of a railwy train may arrest a person committing an act upon the train prohibited by sections 609.681, 609.72, and 609.855, subdivision 1, with or without a warrant, and take that person to the proper law enforcement authorities, or to the station agent at the next railway station."
Reminds me of a trip years ago coming back to the Twin Cities from Chicago with my (now) wife on the Empire Builder. There was a guy who was very drunk and the guy was getting more loud and obnoxious as we rolled through western Wisconsin. I mentioned to wife-to-be that he had better pull himself together or he was going to be in trouble once we crossed the Mississippi into Minnesota. About the time we hit the Mississippi, the conductor took the drunk down into one of the small lounges Superliner cars have that wasn't being used, and stayed there with him. When the train made it's first Minnesota stop in Winona, there were several police / squad cars waiting at the station to pick the guy up. As the guy was being lead away, he yelled back "hey, what about my baggage?" and the conductor yelled back "don't worry, it'll be waiting for you in St.Paul" (about 100 miles away.)
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/2018/cite/629.363?keyword_type=all&keyword=railway+conductor
wjstixReminds me of a trip years ago coming back to the Twin Cities from Chicago with my (now) wife on the Empire Builder. There was a guy who was very drunk and the guy was getting more loud and obnoxious as we rolled through western Wisconsin. I mentioned to wife-to-be that he had better pull himself together or he was going to be in trouble once we crossed the Mississippi into Minnesota. About the time we hit the Mississippi, the conductor took the drunk down into one of the small lounges Superliner cars have that wasn't being used, and stayed there with him. When the train made it's first Minnesota stop in Winona, there were several police / squad cars waiting at the station to pick the guy up. As the guy was being lead away, he yelled back "hey, what about my baggage?" and the conductor yelled back "don't worry, it'll be waiting for you in St.Paul" (about 100 miles away.) https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/2018/cite/629.363?keyword_type=all&keyword=railway+conductor
It is a normal action for Amtrak train personnel to request local authorities meet the train at some specified point so that 'unruly' passenger(s) may be removed from the train and into the custody of the local authorities.
56 or so years ago, I was in Hattiesburg when the northbound Southerner came in. As I was about to take a picture of the train, a well-dressed man queried me about my desire to take the picture. I did convince him that the picture was for my personal collection. Apparently, there had been some trouble there recently--or he was a new hire and wanted to exercise his authority?
My other meeting with a railroad special agent came a few years later--when I ate the evening meal with one; I knew his brother and his sister-in-law well, and they had invited me to eat with them that evening. I may have seen him once some time later when I was at the Terminal Station in Birmingham.
As to an Amtrak conductor's calling local police when a passenger is troublesome, I doubt that it would be convenient to call for an Amtrak policeman to handle the situation unless the matter arose at or near a large station.
Johnny
My guess is that each state has granted the RR "concurrent jurisdiction" for the RR's facilities within the state, which may be exercised by anyone employed as a member of the RR's police force. Don't have any experience with RR's, but that's how it's handled for some facilities which require law enforcement-type activities. It can probably be worded in a way that allows for off-site investigation of incidents which happen on RR property, or pursuit of people found trespassing who run away and leave RR property.
When I was at the Illinois Central Gulf I ask a high ranking railroad cop about jurisdiction. He told me they had the same powers and authority as a deputy sheriff in any county the railroad operated in.
They can stop you for a traffic violation. But they focus on protecting the railroad.
greyhounds When I was at the Illinois Central Gulf I ask a high ranking railroad cop about jurisdiction. He told me they had the same powers and authority as a deputy sheriff in any county the railroad operated in. They can stop you for a traffic violation. But they focus on protecting the railroad.
When it comes right down to it, the same is often true about county sheriffs. While each individual officer might have the authority to pursue myriad issues with you, reality is many of them are aften attending to higher priorities than just some "junk infraction".
My bet is that not too many "seat belt" tickets are given out by RR police, even at grade crossings.
Convicted OneMy bet is that not too many "seat belt" tickets are given out by RR police, even at grade crossings.
My guess is not too many 'seat belt tickets' are given out by 'real' police as from my personal observations they are among the primary offenders.
BaltACDMy guess is not too many 'seat belt tickets' are given out by 'real' police as from my personal observations they are among the primary offenders.
I have noticed that in news reports of accidents involving police officers, they frequently mention that they were not using seatbelts. One reason I've heard, though, is that they have so much gear hanging on their belts that it is extremely awkward to use them. Which reminds me, one state trooper where I used to work said they often get kidded about the way they walk, with their arms out, but they have to because of all the gear on their belts.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington BaltACD My guess is not too many 'seat belt tickets' are given out by 'real' police as from my personal observations they are among the primary offenders. I have noticed that in news reports of accidents involving police officers, they frequently mention that they were not using seatbelts. One reason I've heard, though, is that they have so much gear hanging on their belts that it is extremely awkward to use them. Which reminds me, one state trooper where I used to work said they often get kidded about the way they walk, with their arms out, but they have to because of all the gear on their belts.
BaltACD My guess is not too many 'seat belt tickets' are given out by 'real' police as from my personal observations they are among the primary offenders.
Which only highlights that they need to revise their thinking about the gear they carry on their person and how they stow that gear on their person for their own safety when operating motor vehicles. Very few police walk beats any longer and very few are on mounted patrols on horseback.
I actually got a "stand alone" seat belt ticket from a city cop about 15 years ago...I was shocked. I suspect he thought I looked suspicious, and just used the seat belt as an excuse to come give me a shaking, just to see what falls out.
Normally, they seem to throw in the seat belt infraction as an add-on when they are pulling you over for moving violations.
The thing I've noticed most with cops, is that since my hair has turned grey, they mostly leave me alone....used to be they ALWAYS thought that I was a person of interest. Probably some form of profiling underneath all of that.
I'm starting to smell the recipe for a good sit-com under all of this.
Some well intentioned Barney Fife type railroad cop who is forever getting grief from his superiors for spending too much time with "community involvement" while the wolf is in the hen house back at the railroad.
"And so officer Fife, while you were arresting that kid who had a bong visible in the back window of his station wagon, three more box cars were burgled in your territory, please explain THAT?"
Precision Scheduled Railroad Policing anyone?
Deggesty56 or so years ago, I was in Hattiesburg when the northbound Southerner came in. As I was about to take a picture of the train, a well-dressed man queried me about my desire to take the picture. I did convince him that the picture was for my personal collection. Apparently, there had been some trouble there recently--or he was a new hire and wanted to exercise his authority?
In the 1970s Newark Penn Station very prominently posted signs saying 'no photography'. I asked one of the local cops patrolling the facility if I could photograph a couple of trains, and his answer was 'yes, of course' -- the reason for the ban was passenger privacy, there being instances of PIs taking candids in divorce cases, the example he quoted. As long as I was shooting locomotives, track, and trains in motion he had no concern.
I have come to appreciate the further concern by railroad employees that photography could be used to document, and doubtless enforce, any potential rules violation.
Convicted One BaltACD My guess is not too many 'seat belt tickets' are given out by 'real' police as from my personal observations they are among the primary offenders. I actually got a "stand alone" seat belt ticket from a city cop about 15 years ago...I was shocked. I suspect he thought I looked suspicious, and just used the seat belt as an excuse to come give me a shaking, just to see what falls out. Normally, they seem to throw in the seat belt infraction as an add-on when they are pulling you over for moving violations. The thing I've noticed most with cops, is that since my hair has turned grey, they mostly leave me alone....used to be they ALWAYS thought that I was a person of interest. Probably some form of profiling underneath all of that.
In certian states there can pull you over just for a seat belt violation, Glad Colorado is a seconday enforcement state.
denveroutlaws06 Convicted One BaltACD My guess is not too many 'seat belt tickets' are given out by 'real' police as from my personal observations they are among the primary offenders. I actually got a "stand alone" seat belt ticket from a city cop about 15 years ago...I was shocked. I suspect he thought I looked suspicious, and just used the seat belt as an excuse to come give me a shaking, just to see what falls out. Normally, they seem to throw in the seat belt infraction as an add-on when they are pulling you over for moving violations. The thing I've noticed most with cops, is that since my hair has turned grey, they mostly leave me alone....used to be they ALWAYS thought that I was a person of interest. Probably some form of profiling underneath all of that. In certian states there can pull you over just for a seat belt violation, Glad Colorado is a seconday enforcement state.
When I got my first car, my parents mandated that I get seat belts installed in it - AND USE THEM before I was allowed to drive it (1956 Plymouth 4 door sedan). Every car I have owned since - that did not come equipped with seat belts as standard equipment - I installed them. In 56 years of driving that also includes 31 years of on track sports car racing - I feel naked without belts - even if I am just going around the block - or from my paddock space to the fuel pumps when I am at the track.
BaltACDIn 56 years of driving that also includes 31 years of on track sports car racing - I feel naked without belts - even if I am just going around the block - or from my paddock space to the fuel pumps when I am at the track.
Balt, you reminded me of one of my favorite lines from the movie “The Odd Couple” where Oscar (Walter Matthau) is speaking of Felix: “I know him. He’s too cautious to kill himself. Wears his seat belt in a drive-in movie.”
Having been spared some unnecessary pain by seat belts, I too feel naked without one in use, although if there were still drive-ins around here (and they played anything I'd actually watch), I probably would unbuckle during the show.
..
ChuckCobleighHaving been spared some unnecessary pain by seat belts, I too feel naked without one in use ...
My first car, a handed-down 1962 Thunderbird convertible, had seat belts from the factory (as I recall sourced from an aircraft contractor) and I used them religiously. In part, this was because of a reminder, a tooth-shaped dent in the rim of the red swing-away steering-wheel rim, that those belts had kept my father from being projected off the George Washington Bridge into the Hudson River a few years prior.
Yes, I wear them carefully, and yes, I advocate that everyone try to wear them even when inconvenienced. There are good reasons.
But no, I don't like the feel-good excuse of "safety" being used to establish seat-belt nonuse as a 'crime' allowing fishing expeditions and target-of-opportunity mandatory-appearance citations. To me that is right in line with $273 tickets for being in the handicap lane of a roadway paid for with public money. Positive incentives are good. Negative self-serving ones seldom if ever are preferable in a nominally free or good society.
My father worked at GM's Michigan Proving Grounds, so he had access to things like surplus seat belts. He installed some in our car, of course. I think it was the '63 Olds (a story in and of itself, but I digress).
He was also a reserve police officer. I had dropped him off at the police station one day, and as I pulled out onto the street I kicked it a bit - not enough to break the rear end loose, but enough to make me slide out of the drivers seat on the vinyl bench seat.
As I pulled myself back behind the wheel and stopped for a traffic light, I buckled up, and have done so ever since.
Overmod To me that is right in line with $273 tickets for being in the handicap lane of a roadway paid for with public money. Positive incentives are good. Negative self-serving ones seldom if ever are preferable in a nominally free or good society.
Story time?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
tree68 Overmod Its chief effect was to inoculate the railroads against any scheme of automated car identification, no matter how good it might have been, until well into the 1980s. And now it's all RFID and little gray bricks on the sides of the cars...
An THAT almost didn't happen because of "who is going to pay for the private car tags". The RRs said, "You own'em. You pay." The car owners said, "we could give a flip about your AEI system. YOU pay." The tags were about $35 a pop and $10 for the weld on braket back then.
I think the winning argument was "no tag. no pull."
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I like others here use seatbelts routinely. Back in 1954, my older brother had me help him install seatbelts in our dad's 52 Ford and it became routine. Then in the early sixties, another Electrical Engineer I worked with was in an accident where he was westbound in the outside lane of a four lane highway on a rainy night and a lady going eastbound hit her brakes, locked her wheels, spun around into his lane. I was given the task to retrieve the companies equipment from the car. This was heavy tube type electronic test equipment like oscilloscopes, signal generators,etc. I was glad I saw him first as he had only broken his leg and had a bruised chest as a result of the accident. Then I saw the car. I could have drawn a straight line from the drivers side of the windshield to the passenger side right front tire with nothing in front of the line. The drivers seat back was up against the steering wheel. The instruments had flown off the back seat, hit the seat, and the seat belt had held him, the seats and the instruments. This reinforced my appreciation for them. When my kids were young, they learned that if they didn't buckle up, we were not going. As you can tell, I am a fervent believer.
tree68....as I pulled out onto the street I kicked it a bit - not enough to break the rear end loose, but enough to make me slide out of the drivers seat on the vinyl bench seat. As I pulled myself back behind the wheel and stopped for a traffic light, I buckled up, and have done so ever since.
That is the "winning" arguement for mandatory seat belts. It keeps the driver behind the controls and the passengers off the driver after any kind of impact or maneuver.
oltmanndThat is the "winning" argument for mandatory seat belts. It keeps the driver behind the controls and the passengers off the driver after any kind of impact or maneuver.
Just as this is one of the winning argument against mandatory air bags -- see how well a driver handles the controls when a 12-gauge shell worth of pyro blows a bag in his face after most any kind of impact...
OvermodBut no, I don't like the feel-good excuse of "safety" being used to establish seat-belt nonuse as a 'crime' allowing fishing expeditions and target-of-opportunity mandatory-appearance citations.
One common thread I've found in random encounters with street cops, they are a lot like panhandlers in convenience store parking lots. The harder you try to avoid eye contact, the more determined they become to meet you. fwiw.
I actually had a pleasant encounter with an NS special agent last summer. I had parked my vehicle in the area formerly occupied by the eastward waiting room at the former PRR station in Huntingdon, PA and set up to video several westbound trains I knew were coming.
I never got closer than about 20 feet from the tracks and was wearing a bright yellow T-shirt and a CSX Atlanta Division hat that was also reflective. As is my normal practice when railfanning; I was keeping watch in both directions to remain on alert for any approaching trains I may have missed on the scanner.
Anyhow; after the first train had passed; a vehicle pulled up alongside me and the special agent introduced himself and said he had originally had every intention of citing me for trespass but; after observing the manner in which I maintained situational awareness he was going to give me a pass. We chatted for a bit and he eventually drove off; allowing me to remain where I was with nothing more than a reminder to “be safe”.
I use seatbelts routinely. A few years ago, I was driving a 90 Chevy wagon (no air bags), on a 2 lane rural state highway, doing 55 when I T-boned a stop sign runner (moving from my right to left). I had a very badly sprained left wrist, from my wrist hitting the steering wheel, a couple of barely noticeable bruises from the seat belt/shoulder harness and a very small abrasion on my right knee where it hit the dashboard (the hospital said to put a band-aid on it when you get home).
I agree with your sentiment about getting pulled over for non-criminal offenses like failing to wear a seat belt. It smacks of enforcement for profit, which, sadly, occurs too often, mostly speed traps, but seat belts also fit that mold. While I think this is a little too far into my private life for government to be reaching, I also think you're crazy if you don't wear one while driving, especially given the high speeds on many highways nowadays-all the interstates near me are 70 MPH, some 75 here in flyover country. Keep in mind, you do have the option of refusing a search of your vehicle at such a traffic stop, since a traffic stop is not sufficient in the absence of other factors(strong pot smell when you open the window) probable cause for a search. The cop won't like it, and will probably give you a hard time, but you don't have to submit to one.
All that said, I don't feel so bad about the $273 handicap spot tickets. My wife has a heart condition, and can't walk very far, especially on humid days. It can be a real chore for her to get into a store from even a moderate distance parking spot, so much so that I will often drop her in front of the store if there are no handicap spots, and go park where I can. So, a pox on anyone taking up a handicap spot who is not truly in need. You deserve the ticket.
In the mid 1980's, I worked for Friendly Ice Cream in Albertson NY. I was an assistant manager, and usually closed, getting out around 1230 AM most nights. I'd take a ride down to Mineola, which had a pretty good parade around 0100, a Ronkonkoma train, then shortly after a Montauk train, followed closely by an Oyster Bay train, as well as a smattering of Huntington MU trains. The treat was RF 11, which would be held back til the OB train cleared. He'd come through eastbound with a pair of C 420's going full out, which was quite a sight and sound experience. If I got lucky, I'd get westbound RF 91, too.
Anyway, one night, I'm down at the station, parked in the lot when the local LIRR cop shows up. We got into a conversation covering, among other things, his varous duties. He said the LIRR, as part of the MTA, was a state agency(one of the 730 authorities in NY. I did not make up that number), that they were fully empowered and had the same authority as NY State troopers. He told me they primarily dealt with railroad issues, but occasionally would pull people over for traffic violations if they were sufficiently egregious. He said it was amusing to see people's reactions when they realized they were pulled over by an LIRR cop on the LI Expressway.
tabeckettAll that said, I don't feel so bad about the $273 handicap spot tickets.
That's not what I was talking about (disclaimer: I have a disability that makes the set-aside spaces useful, so I am not unbiased on that subject). The fines involved HOV lanes, which in certain locations in California may involve considerable construction expense to provide (which is paid for by general taxation). It was not uncommon, when I lived in California, to see special units specifically positioned and tasked to watch for violations of the HOV provisions, not always during rush hours or other periods of high occupancy. This is not a handicap provision; it's a gas-saving one, similar to the 'double nickel' speed limit (which has also seen its share of "police temptation" in enforcement -- as anyone driving in Ohio or Connecticut in the late '70s will likely remember!)
I wondered if you might not be talking about HOV lanes. We had them in NY as well, and I have also seen them in several other states. Some of them are time limited-they are only for HOV's during certain hours. I have also seen targeted enforcement of them during rush periods. Connecticut and Maryland seemed to be especially vigilant.
The 55 MPH speed limit was a joke from the beginning, but, as you note, did provide a lot of cover for "enforcement for profit." Speaking of California, they really need to get rid of the 55 MPH truck speed. It only causes congestion and a lot of lane changes, which not only doesn't make anyone safer, it creates the potential for less safety. Making any vehicle go 55 MPH across miles of desert(I 10, 15, and 40) is ludicrous, and unproductive. Washington, Oregon, and Michigan need to do the same.
Ohio and Connecticut were nowhere near as bad as PA was. PA used anything from an El Camino with a hay bale in back to a semi running bobtail as unmarked vehicles. They even used RVs for the job. But I won't go into CT with my truck or trailer as they can't seem to understand the difference between a commercial vehicle and one that is non-commercial. Winning a ribbon at a tractor show does not make it commercial, except to the greedy cop.
D NICHOLS...between a commercial vehicle and one that is non-commercial.
It doesn't help that in NY, pick-ups get a "commercial" plate.
tree68It doesn't help that in NY, pick-ups get a "commercial" plate.
New York is funny because the 'commercial' plate becomes important in enforcing Bob Moses' wackjob parkway laws ... but it goes by whether the vehicle is owned by a business entity, as well as is above a certain weight or size class. (I had a friend who ran a party-planning business, and she had a Subaru with commercial plates ... for the advantages in parking and standing on Manhattan, many of which require commercial plating...)
Of course, also in New York, you're a fool if you just send the ticket in instead of fighting it. Some of the forms of 'back-door' non-enforcement were enlightening to me, such as one instance of speeding (in Brooklyn) which "had to be dismissed" in court due to non-appearance of the arresting officer. He was lounging against the wall outside the courtroom and gave me a very pointed look that said 'do not do that again'!
As to tresspassers on RR property, a BNSF officer said a lot of tresspassers are wearing thr visibility vests but it's the white tennis shoes that give them away. I was surprised at the number of trespassers RRs get. They are not always watchful which in turned gets them watched. Have seen many on the RR I volunteer on. We have public walkways that cross at one end of our yard an many take a wrong turn on to our property. As OLS says "See Tracks.Think Trains."
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
tabeckettKeep in mind, you do have the option of refusing a search of your vehicle at such a traffic stop, since a traffic stop is not sufficient in the absence of other factors(strong pot smell when you open the window) probable cause for a search.
Most cops are capable of manufacturing probable cause, and if their search yields paydirt the judges will usually help the cop trample your rights.
In California any cop doing a traffic stop is allowed to search anywhere that the driver or passenger can reach without getting out of their seat, IF THE OFFICER feels his safety might be in jeopardy....and that is a call entirely up to the cop. So your glovebox is fair game, your console, under your seats, under the back seats
But not the trunk.....unless they find a weapon during their cursory search. I had a cop tell me that the baseball bat laying in my back seat qualified as a weapon, entitling him to search my trunk....since I had nothing to hide, I let him amuse me with his Dick Tracy impersonation.....3 o'clock in the morning, and he wanted to burn 45 minutes seasrching my trunk...for nothing. He actually asked me what the ball bat was for.......
Sometimes I think they play those games just as an excuse to run a warrant check.....fishing for the big one
Convicted OneSometimes I think they play those games just as an excuse to run a warrant check.....fishing for the big one
The scanner is on at my house 24/7. It might amaze folks the percentage of traffic stops that come back with warrants, unpaid tickets, etc.
I don't think the cops around here go looking for trouble - but if you're going to drive stupidly, and you've got outstanding items in the system, it's gonna catch up with you.
Then there's this story from the 1960's, as related by my (now retired) sheriff's deputy uncle - Midnight patrol (two deputies), boring as heck. The deputies see a car with a tail light out. They figure they'll just stop him and tell him the light was out and to get it fixed. Not big deal - a public service if you will.
Turn on the lights, tap the siren - he takes off. Runs three roadblocks before they finally get him stopped.
He didn't have his license with him. They probably weren't even going to ask him for it.
@Tree68: There is a "reality" TV show (one of many, I am sure) that documents police actions by use of a ride-along camera man. Due to watching this show I had already been wondering if the propensity to be a law breaker makes some individuals more likely to be simple traffic offenders as well. If they have outstanding warrants, they are more likely to run a red light, believe that STOP is an acronym for Slight Tap On Pedal, or try to elude police because they forgot to have their driver's license with them. Seems to be a "law doesn't apply to me" attitude, and it is across the board in all aspects.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
tree68Turn on the lights, tap the siren - he takes off. Runs three roadblocks before they finally get him stopped. He didn't have his license with him. They probably weren't even going to ask him for it.
License & Registration are the three words that get programmed into the police mind whenever they open their mouth. No matter if License and Registration are really needed.
Just like whenever at CSX Train Dispatcher communicates with a MofW employee the first thing the Dispatcher says - Milepost and ID - the first two things that are required to formulate a MofW Authority.
tree68hey figure they'll just stop him and tell him the light was out and to get it fixed. Not big deal - a public service if you will. Turn on the lights, tap the siren - he takes off. Runs three roadblocks before they finally get him stopped. He didn't have his license with him. They probably weren't even going to ask him for it.
That's funny....guilt can eat a person alive if they let it.
One of my college psyc professors had a saying: "don't fight straw dogs"...That has come and helped me stay cool several times over the years.
I had an Inglewood CA cop pull me over for a burnt out license plate light. I was driving an Eldorado which has two bulbs for the license plate....both were working fine. He still searched me and a buddy, hand cuffed us both and sat us in the back of his cruiser, and we watched him search the interior of my car and the trunk...75 minutes he spent hoping a gift would fall down out of the sky and into my car....finally, you could see his shoulders sink, when he realized he was gonna come up empty.
He unhooked us, told us we were free to leave, and then he drove away while all the contents of my trunk were still on the ground behind my car...sitting in an active lane of traffic. I guess I was just supposed to be thankful that I was going to sleep in my own bed that night?
And people wonder where my attitude about cops came from. LOL!
tree68 don't think the cops around here go looking for trouble - but if you're going to drive stupidly, and you've got outstanding items in the system, it's gonna catch up with you.
One other amusing instance I recall,.....I had an expired license plate.....and was driving at 1:30 in the morning in the worst part of LA's "South Central" district. Actually in Hawthorne's jurisdiction. We were driving through a real destitute residential neighborhood when pulled over
My passenger had a really juicy prior conviction that I knew nothing about, and also had an outstanding warrant. So they pull us over, run us for warrants and my buddy must have rang a few bells, because things turned serious real fast.
I'm always a "yes sir and no sir" kinda guy when stopped by authority, and I think the cop started tripping over why somebody like me would be out at that time with somebody having the reputation that my passenger had. So they musta felt that digging deeper might pay off.
I've never seen anything like it. Over the next 30-45 minutes, 22 marked patrol cars joined our little curbside party....probably the entire on duty shift for the Hawthorne PD the way I figure it. It was funny watching the residents all staring out their doors and windows, probably thinking they were going to be raided.
When the tow truck showed up, they just told me I was free to go....they were impoundingmy car to insure compliance.
So here I am in the worst possible neighborhood you can imagine, 2 am...and on foot. I ask if they could give me a lift to the nearest bus stop, and they just chuckled, told me "7 blocks that way, and then 3 blocks left"
Such nice guys.
Semper Vaporo I had already been wondering if the propensity to be a law breaker makes some individuals more likely to be simple traffic offenders as well.
I've often been amused with how self professed "law and order" types can become so irate when they see a cop with his lights on in their rear view mirror.
~hey, go pick on some real criminals!!~ LOL!
@convictedone: Yeah... I catch myself thinking like that sometimes.
I was lazily driving home late one cold and rainy evening. The partricular route crossed two one-way streets about 2 blocks apart. There are 4-way flashers at both intersections, and I knew full well that they are NOT regular red/yellow/green stoplights.
I stopped at the first one and glanced in the rearview mirror to see a car approaching rather fast. I pressed hard on the brake, expecting it to ram me, but instead it pulled into the curb/parking lane and proceded to make a right turn without slowing at all. I remember mumbling out-loud to myself, 'Where's a cop when you need one?"
I then proceeded to the next 4-way stop, where there was a pickup truck in the left turn lane, and just as the "flashing" red light went dark, the pickup pulled forward and made the left turn. Somehow, I unconciously decided that the "Red" light had turned "Green" and that is why the truck had made the left turn, so I proceeded through the intersection without stopping. I didn't realize it until I was in the middle of the cross street. I now am sure I was preoccupied with my disgust of the other driver at the previous intersection. I know I managed to touch the brake then, but decided that stopping would be rather pointless in the middle of the intersection.
My thoughts at that moment were, "I guess I am glad there were no cops around!"
But, guess what I then saw in the rearview mirror?
Yep, flashing red and blue lights.
I pulled over and the cop came to my door and asked, "What's goin' on?"
I had not yet realized what my thinking had been, so I just said, "Would you believe stupidity?"
He chuckled and asked for my driver's license and took it back to his car, while I was left trying to decide what what this was going to do to my savings account and to try to sort out why I had done what I did.
I figured out why I had done it before he came back, but by then it was raining harder and windy and COLD, so I decided against keeping the officer in the cold and rain trying to explain it to him.
He just handed me my license and said, "Be more careful in the future. You may go." and he got back into his car. So I drove off and he followed me for about 2 blocks and then he went off in some other direction.
I honestly think it was God's way to teach me to not be so judgemental about that other driver.
wilmette2210Do Railroad Police ever come out for Train VS Vehicle or Train VS Pedestrian accidents? Thanks.
In my experience - occasionaly. If there is one that is in the area and not involved in some other company productive use of their time. If the time for 'clean up and resolution' of the incident becomes protracted and 'never ending' the likelyhood of them getting on the scene rises.
Convicted OneSo here I am in the worst possible neighborhood you can imagine, 2 am...and on foot. I ask if they could give me a lift to the nearest bus stop, and they just chuckled, told me "7 blocks that way, and then 3 blocks left" Such nice guys.
Convicted OneAnd people wonder where my attitude about cops came from. LOL!
zardozThere are some real nice, fair, dedicated, follow-the-rules type of cops out there (two of my nephews are Chicago cops); but it's the other 99% that give them a bad reputation.
Alas, oftimes the cops are only giving back what they're getting.
Nothing but respect for those guys, many of whom were big city or FBI folks in a past life and had just "burned out". (They often called on us for help when their widdle 4wd RR-PD poodle cars got stuck out in the boondocks)...I got Scotty Dog #1 ("Clyde") from a special agent that had rescued him after finding him abandoned, starving and cowering in a culvert near NA Junction.
zardozhere are some real nice, fair, dedicated, follow-the-rules type of cops out there
There truly are some decent cops out there, trying to make the world better for everybody....I've met several. And (just like with people in general) there are some truly loathsome characters out there who wear badges.
Additionally, there seem to be a good number of "weary" police officers out there, I'll pull some numbers out of the air,,,say with 8-15 years on the force who theink they are still trying to do a good job....but they develop this mindset as though they are the "keeper", and we all are like the animals in the zoo.
They forget about our constitutional protections as a matter of their own personal convenience ...because "there are so many of us critters, and so few of them to keep track of us.....that they feel entitled to take liberties for the good of all.
Most cops are aware of that mentality and call their fellow officers who operate that way "poachers". I guess it fits.
I've truly been blessed in that the several times I have had run in's with the law, I have not been "vulnerable". (*cough cough*) While at others, my jaw actually dropped that they somehow missed me with the crosshairs.
Now that I am old and feeble, I'm actually glad they are there to keep the young bucks in check.
What do the RR cops tell the local PD when they threaten to arrest the crew? Glad you are able to help him out.
mudchicken wilmette2210 Do Railroad Police ever come out for Train VS Vehicle or Train VS Pedestrian accidents? Thanks. Frequently here, if they are within a reasonable distance of the incident. We still have townies trying to arrest train crews due to political grandstanding. Who has jurisdiction often plays into that reponse. Nothing but respect for those guys, many of whom were big city or FBI folks in a past life and had just "burned out". (They often called on us for help when their widdle 4wd RR-PD poodle cars got stuck out in the boondocks)...I got Scotty Dog #1 ("Clyde") from a special agent that had rescued him after finding him abandoned, starving and cowering in a culvert near NA Junction.
wilmette2210 Do Railroad Police ever come out for Train VS Vehicle or Train VS Pedestrian accidents? Thanks.
Frequently here, if they are within a reasonable distance of the incident. We still have townies trying to arrest train crews due to political grandstanding. Who has jurisdiction often plays into that reponse.
Semper Vaporon't realize it until I was in the middle of the cross street. I now am sure I was preoccupied with my disgust of the other driver at the previous intersection. I know I managed to touch the brake then, but decided that stopping would be rather pointless in the middle of the intersection.
Well, I am happy that your miscue did not put you in harm's way with another car.
At least I entered the intersection at the same moment the truck was making the left turn, so any traffic from the right would have been stopped at the 4-way flasher to let the truck turn, but there were no cars coming from that directoin anyway.
I still don't know where the police car came from nor do I understand how it could have caught up to me so quickly. I am sure it was not stopped on my right at the light waiting for the truck to turn because I was still in the intersection when I glanced in the rearview mirror and saw it right behind me, and if it had been behind me at the previous intersection I am sure he would have given chase of the car that made the right turn there without stopping. I just have this nagging feeling that God put it there just to teach me a lesson.
Incidents like this occur, then the cops wonder why they get an "FU" attitude from people. This was nothing short of harassment. There was no reason for them to impound your car in the Hawthorne incident. But while the 22 cars were attending to you, it would have been a great time for someone to knock over a 7-11.
tabeckettIncidents like this occur, then the cops wonder why they get an "FU" attitude from people.
Yet those same people will complain loudly if another driver's actions somehow imperil them - then "hangin's too good for 'em."
tabeckett There was no reason for them to impound your car in the Hawthorne incident.
In New Jersey as late as the mid-Nineties, being caught with expired registration meant automatic impoundment. (Often the tow driver would quietly agree to pull around the corner and release the car to you on the sly ... if you paid the tow fee, in full, in cash.)
Why would you expect to be free to drive away in a car with expired tags?
Overmod tabeckett There was no reason for them to impound your car in the Hawthorne incident. In New Jersey as late as the mid-Nineties, being caught with expired registration meant automatic impoundment. (Often the tow driver would quietly agree to pull around the corner and release the car to you on the sly ... if you paid the tow fee, in full, in cash.) Why would you expect to be free to drive away in a car with expired tags?
Tags are nothing more than a tax reciept. There are a multitude of legal actions that surround 'encumbering' a property for failure to pay property taxes. Vehicles are no more than property that gets used on the road system, should not the same legal actions surround 'encumbering' a vehicle?
BaltACDTags are nothing more than a tax receipt
Non-expired tags (or stickers on tags), at least in California and New Jersey, are an indication that the fees to operate a particular vehicle on public roads are paid correctly. In Tennessee an expired tag is considered an opportunity to charge lots of fees, but you can drive away from the stop. NOT SO in some other states, where they demand compliance (in New Jersey, including proof of insurance) before allowing your vehicle to be driven. (The 'impoundment' is a matter of convenience, not allowing a derelict vehicle to remain on public roads 'since you can't drive it even an inch legally' -- you could have hired AAA or a tow company to move it for you, but then the police would have no guarantee you wouldn't start driving it illegally again the moment the vehicle were out of their control.)
Note that your right to OWN the vehicle is not affected by the seizure, only the ability to drive it on the road (which is what the 'currency' of the tags permits). You also retain the right to remove property from the vehicle as seized, and probably to sell it (subject to a lien for accrued fees and storage, but that's another racket entirely, which perhaps shouldn't be moral but is certainly legalized)
tabeckett This was nothing short of harassment. There was no reason for them to impound your car in the Hawthorne incident.
Few additional details:
In California you have to get you car smog tested every two years in order to renew your license plate. For 95% of drivers you just go to a "smog pros" type specialist who will stick a probe up your exhaust pipe, get a reading, and bill you a service fee. Sometimes they stick you for a couple hundred dollars of ("needed") repairs...but for the most part it's quite painless.
The Year, make, and model of my car was on a watchlist that the state of California calls "gross polluter". And what that means is I couldn't just go to any of the chain smog shops, I had to go to a closely state regulated "test only" testing shop...where they couldn't sell me a certificate by squeezing me for repairs.
At these places they actually put your car on a dynamometer type machine and "drive" your car at 55 mph standing in place....and then put the probe up your exhaust pipe, and the reading goes straight to the state of California...
These tests are hard to pass if your car isn't like just a few years old.
So I tested and failed, and it looked like I was going to have to spend serious money for repairs to pass.
So, I did the next best thing, and just decided to buy a different car.
Two years later I still hadn't gotten around to buying the replacement, and my license tags were two years out of date...so thats' where the "to insure compliance" part of the cops story came from. Yeah...I had it coming.
Additionally, I could tell that they did a major search of the vehicle while it was in their possession...so the need to tow because of the plate served other purposes. Likely had a dog give it a once over too.
Also, I mean both sides of the street were bumper to bumper patrol cars...it wouldn't shock me if there were a few unmarked cars among them as well.
When I left on foot, I really kinda doubt that I was all alone, even though the cops made it seem like I was being thrown to the wolves. I strongly suspect that I had at least one pair of law enforcement eyes on me, looking to see If I ducked into a nearby home,..which if I did,... might prove an interesting lead for them to investigate. I think they were "playing" me. And therefore knew that my safety really wasn't at risk.
That's all just my speculation,..but I'd put money on it.
Happy ending on the smog issue, I managed to find a closely monitored "test only" test shop that operated a little differently from the norm....and they found a way to get my car to pass. So, happy ending for all.
Overmodonly the ability to drive it on the road (which is what the 'currency' of the tags permits). You also retain the right to remove property from the vehicle as seized, and probably to sell it (subject to a lien for accrued fees and storage, but that's another racket entirely, which perhaps shouldn't be moral but is certainly legalized)
Here's the funny part of that aspect. What I had to do was go to the local BMV office, and for only like $10 they issued to me a release permit that was good for two weeks...carry it in your wallet....the intention being to allow you to claim the car, take care of the deficiencies, and then go back to the BMV to get the license plate sorted out.
And if you did that all on time, they squashed the ticket for expired tags.
Still had to pay towing and impoundment.
Now that we have been "around the horn" on various and sundry topics, I do have some curiosity in line with the OP's question. What are the routine duties of RR police?
I know that they play tag with trespassers, would assume that they are involved in all crimes occuring on railroad properties even when a civil agency is the first responder, and at least departmentally handle new hire background checks.
And there was that interesting little episode with the "bait" container of Nike shoes in Chicago a while back.
But do the RR police administer post incident employee testing, including chain of custody assurance for evidence collected? Do they respond to theft reports when the theft occurs on customer owned sidings? Are the RR police the much despised "eyes in the weeds" we so often hear about looking for rules violations by operating crews? And, do they administer sting type operations screening for such things as employee theft? Intercepting impaired operating crews, stuff like that?
Frisco used to have yard cops, a/k/a "bulls" and got to know some of them visiting the yards with Dad. He knew all of them, I'd see them looking when we came on the property or sitting on the office steps. They'd start over, recognize him and wave or sometimes come over to talk. From what I understand BNSF only has a few cops who work the whole Midwest, if there's a problem anywhere, the local PD are called. There was a perv who used to call Dad's office and whoever talked to him got the same message, meet him under the Arsenal bridge which was near one end of the yards. The "bulls" told the office workers, the next time he called, set up a "date" to meet him and they would take care of the problem. They caught him and brought him into the office until PD came to pick him up. He was a young guy and very embarrased to be finally found. They did take care of that problem, so they did a variety of things. When Dad worked as yard clerk in 3rd trick, he had a manifest of cars and had to check all to make sure seals were intact, paying close attention to the ones hauling cigs and booze. When he found one, he had to notify one of the "bulls" who would check out the car and a report would be turned in. Sometimes they did catch the thief or a hobo trying to sneak a ride. They had more of an open mind than today, if someone was a railfan and not trying to steal something, it would be ok to hang around and take pictures. Even the switchmen did not care as long as they stayed off the tracks. Whole different world today.
I can relate one incident where we used railroad police to solve a property crime.
My former employer had a plant site a bit southwest of Montreal that was served by CN. The plant loading foreman contacted me one Thursday morning to advise all of our private cars switched into the plant that morning were missing the stainless sparger inlets and product outlet extension fittings from one side of the cars. I immediately contacted the CN police and they set up a surveillance of the yard that served our plant site. The following weekend; CN police caught the thieves when they returned to the service yard to steal more stainless fittings. The CN police arrested the thieves, confiscated their cell phones and traced one of the recent phone calls to a Montreal scrap dealer. CN police visited the scrap dealer and obtained a security video showing the individuals selling the “scrap” they had stolen from our cars.
CN police did all of this between Thursday when I notified them of the theft and noon the following Monday when they phoned me with their follow up report. I will admit to being pretty damned impressed with how quickly they solved the crime and arrested the thieves.
Several of you have commented based on my reply about Convicted One's impoundment, mostly about expired plates. I looked back, and realize I must have neglected that detail when composing my reply. Of course, expired plates will, most places, get your vehicle taken off the road.
In NY, I knew several people who got snagged in one of those periodic pogroms held by the Binghamton PD, where they'd have a check point set up to look for specifically this kind of violation, and whatever else they could find. There's a reason the registration expiry date is printed large on the windshield sticker. These antics were also run by the state police, and sheriff road patrols as well(sometimes on NY 17 out on the open road, which was posted 65 MPH. Safety First, eh??), so it was a widespread tactic. In any event, if a registration was expired, they'd not only tow the vehicle, they'd take the plates off it as well. Presumably, they went back to DMV, since the expired plates had no grace period on them.
One gimmick they have here in Arkansas is to follow vehicles with temp tags(30 days) around just after midnight, looking for tags that have expired. The 30 day tag is designed to give a new car buyer time to get the vehicle assessed-we have a personal property tax here. At one time, it applied to all personal property, but now is only vehicles and boats-and get it registered, and pay any sales tax due. This all must be done before a regular plate will be issued. For a lot of folks who are living paycheck to paycheck, coming up with several hundred to maybe $1000 for sales tax can be overwhelming, and there are quite a few expired temp tags out there. So it's a good way to bust nuts, and make some cash for the local municipality.
Anyway, to those who pointed out the fact that Convicted One's plates were expired, I stand corrected. Should pay more attention to detail.
In any event, any time a public official carries on about safety, it's the money.
tabeckettIn NY, I knew several people who got snagged in one of those periodic pogroms held by the Binghamton PD, where they'd have a check point set up to look for specifically this kind of violation, and whatever else they could find. There's a reason the registration expiry date is printed large on the windshield sticker.
Same goes for the inspection. I've been working accident scenes with the troopers numerous times and I'm always amazed that they can pick out an expired inspection at 25 MPH...
I may have mentioned this, but in listening to the scanner, it seems like a significant number of the cars stopped have some outstanding action on them. If it's serious enough, they're headed straight before a judge for arraignment.
tabeckettIn any event, any time a public official carries on about safety, it's the money.
You mentioned "harrassment" in an earlier post to me.
Actually I felt more harrassed in the instance where they claimed my license plate light wasn't working. My car had two, and both were working fine. They fabricated the claim as an excuse to pull me over.
Several blockes earlier the cop had turned from a cross street onto the street where I was first in line waiting for a red light. As he drove past I avoided eye contact with him...and that arroused his suspicion. So he did a U-turn to get in behind me, followed me for a few blocks...and then made up the lie about my license plate light.
Those are the things our Bill of Rights is supposed to protect us from.
Learned my lesson there however. Now whenever I see a cop in traffic, I smile and wave, and act like a law enforcement groupie. That's usually sufficient to get them to hightail it the other way.
Not always. It can be about power and political kissing-up as well.
Periodically we have little spasms of 'sobriety checkpoints' at odd hours, where roads are blocked off supposedly to detect 'drunk drivers'. Unsurprisingly, however, drivers are quickly asked to produce license, registration, and proof of insurance ... and given the consequences that follow when some of those things aren't fully up to snuff. A recent example of one of these raids resulted in exactly zero drunk-driver interdictions ... but no fewer than 240 citations against Hispanics. Good plausible denial for what effectively constitutes profiling! You sure couldn't do that driving around targeting people from groups you don't like!
Convicted OneLearned my lesson there however. Now whenever I see a cop in traffic, I smile and wave, and act like a law enforcement groupie.
Back in the day before LED light bars, you could easily see my blue (firefighter) or red (fire chief) colored dome - I'm sure I escaped further scrutiny on more than a few occasions because of them. Professional courtesy, donchaknow.
Nowadays, everybody has an LED bar with no color indicated. The license plate marker stating "fire chief" probably isn't quite as effective.
They also get a friendly wave, and since I've worked with some of them at accidents, it's that much better.
tree68 Convicted One Learned my lesson there however. Now whenever I see a cop in traffic, I smile and wave, and act like a law enforcement groupie. Back in the day before LED light bars, you could easily see my blue (firefighter) or red (fire chief) colored dome - I'm sure I escaped further scrutiny on more than a few occasions because of them. Professional courtesy, donchaknow. Nowadays, everybody has an LED bar with no color indicated. The license plate marker stating "fire chief" probably isn't quite as effective. They also get a friendly wave, and since I've worked with some of them at accidents, it's that much better.
Convicted One Learned my lesson there however. Now whenever I see a cop in traffic, I smile and wave, and act like a law enforcement groupie.
And when those Blue and Red LED's get fired up on High Intensity at night - they are BLINDING to oncoming traffic in all directions - and I suspect, in some cases lead to 'target fixation' type accidents.
tree68The license plate marker stating "fire chief" probably isn't quite as effective.
I have a lot of respect for fire fighters. They put a lot on the line, most every day. And the public service they provide is hard to put a measured limit to.
And I often tell them so, when given the chance.
My standard line is to tell them " how much I appreciate everything they do for us, unlike those other badge wearing zealots"...usually get a chuckle.
Not long ago I had such a chance while I was finishing breakfast at Taco bell. He was a supervisor, driving his SUV alone,...had just got his seat.
And his response was a smiling "thank you, I'll be sure to tell that to my brother the police officer who should be joining me here in the next few minutes"
I think I brightened his day.
Yes, we get that here, too. There are some small towns here-Sulphur Springs(Ark) comes to mind, or Watts OK-where they have two or three fairly late model cars in the police department, for towns with only 500 or 600 residents, and no significant source of municipal revenue. I have come through Sulphur Springs late at night on numerous occasions to have the local cop follow me through town. I keep my speed right on the 35 MPH limit. A lot of times, the cop will ride so close on your bumper that if you sneeze, he'll hit you. They are relying on the driver they are following to make some error, or speed up, which will then occasion a traffic stop. It's a racket, and quite a few of these towns generate a lot of money this way. I've been driving 45 years. I know entrapment when I see it. Watts a few years ago got in trouble with the state for being a speed trap. In Oklahoma, if 50% of more of a town's revenue comes from traffic violations, the state can go after them by law, for being a speed trap. The percentage in Watts was 53%. Except for Bakery Feeds, a feed mill, and the KCS(now a main track, controlled siding, and a small yard, everything else is gone), Watts has basically no industrial/commercial tax base.
Another game they play in some circumstances is civil asset forfeiture, where assets are seized on the theory that they are used in, or proceeds of, criminal activity. No conviction is needed to make such a seizure. Getting your stuff back after it is seized is time consuming and expensive. Some states have outlawed it, but most have not, and the Feds use it routinely. I can go on with stats and stories, but the bottom line is, government should not be able to take someone's property on that basis without a criminal conviction. A lot of towns and counties gain significant revenue via this process. All of them should be charged under RICO statutes.
The ridiculous thing about the license plate light is that since all plates are reflectorized now, you really don't need it anyway, so, yeah harassment. It's awfully ironic how some police, who are sworn to uphold the rule of law, and the Constitution, will go to such measures to subvert it for whatever aim they deem desirable, either because of their own personal bias, or because someone in their hierarchy/governing body, has decided that revenue, or some other reason, is preferable to honest law enforcement.
The City of Baltimore is currently going through the aftermath of police corruption in a special team known as the 'Gun Trace Task Force' that was creating as much or more crime than the people they were arresting - planting fake evidence, siezure of assets and other outright criminal activities. A couple of years ago, one of their members died under 'mysterious' circumstance a day before he was scheduled to testify in a Grand Jury probe of 'police activity'.
https://www.capitalgazette.com/topic/crime-law-justice/law-enforcement/gun-trace-task-force-ORGOVV00038-topic.html
It can work in the other direction, too. A few years ago, I forgot to turn on my headlights after pulling out of a service station. It's an easy mistake to make since the station is well lit and my dashboard lights are linked to the ignition switch. At any rate, I was pulled over about a half-mile down for driving without headlights and the officer just reminded me to turn on my lights. I thanked him and was able to go on my way.
.
Speed traps are a bit different from harassment: at least you know it's all about the money, and not a beating in the jail that night because the locals don't like your face. Interestingly enough the problem with speed trapping got so bad in California they've actually passed a law regulating the practice ... would that they'd do so here in Tennessee, where we have had a legislative backlash against another nominally lucrative practice, red-light cameras with artificially short yellows. There are three local towns that could use a little wrist-slapping: Germantown (where they love to sit at the bottom of steep hills for their strict enforcement); Oakland (where you better not sin a jot or a tittle going through) and Gallaway (a poor community "run" by the local equivalent of a slumlord whose tenants vote for him or else, which had quite a number of late-model high-powered interceptors with 'all the bells and whistles' out in the middle of nowhere ... I don't wonder why.) I'd like to see a model prosecution under RICO that could be applied to some of this stuff; it certainly only peripherally concerns 'traffic safety' (I know of at least two accidents that occurred when people were watching for the po-pos too carefully and let their wheels get a little ahead of their eyes as a result).
Note that this is different from the typical small town where the police are always sitting off the main drag with the radar/VASCAR running. They usually only come out when some massive offense occurs ... I say this having driven perhaps the ultimate 'target car' for the Deep South (a white Eldo convertible with buff New Jersey plates) extensively in southern states and never had a problem. Other than once, in Virginia, while (to get back on topic a bit) railfanning the Southern from public property -- the local constable was hostile until I mentioned I was driving back to have a drink with my friend the magistrate in Charlottesville, at which point all became smiles, as usual in Virginia at that time. (Meanwhile Virginia's speeding policy has been in the control of traffic-law attorneys for some time, unsurprisingly increasing no-tolerance strict 'surprise' enforcement and keeping statutory reckless driving tied to 25-over ... for our national 55mph speed limit. And of course radar detectors are illegal (unless modulated for communications, but be prepared to do some 'splainin') Don't know whether to cry or face-palm first ... but Virginians are evidently electing the democracy they deserve.)
Civil asset forfeiture is a scam, well-recognized as one, highly unlikely you'll see it changed 'til the revolution. The problem at the root is that there are too many groups that have large amounts of cash they won't 'go to court' to get back, some of which are worthwhile confiscating. What I don't think some of these jurisdictions realize is that the true criminals in these situations will be able to afford and employ the best lawyers to get release of these assets, whereas poor people who can't get bank accounts (and the like) get sheared without recourse in our current excuse for an adversarial system.
I'm glad thatt my only experience with Watts, Oklahoma, was riding through on the KCS 51 years ago, on my way from Nw Orleans to Kansas City.
BaltACDThe City of Baltimore is currently going through the aftermath of police corruption in a special team known as the 'Gun Trace Task Force' that was creating as much or more crime than the people they were arresting - planting fake evidence, siezure of assets and other outright criminal activities.
Yeah, I heard about that...interesting for sure.
While I was living in Los Angeles, we used to employ off duty police officers for undercover security. My relationship with most of them was contentious, at best.
Hired one guy who had been in the LA Rampart division before coming to work for the PD in our sleepy suburb . He used to get really annoyed with my discussion about opportunistic police officers.
Then the LAPD Rampart Division scandal broke the news waves, and basically confirmed everything I had been ranting about. Even some of his off duty police co-horts started teasing him about how deeply he was involved, and who he was trying to protect. Emotionally he was in retreat mode for several months as each days news casts seemed to recount additional horrors.
The thing that brought the whole mess to the surface was when one officer checked out 6 LBS of seized cocaine from the evidence locker, and never returned it. I suspect that it was jelousy by his coworkers that caused it all to boil over.
CShaveRR Carl - I have to agree with my Ex-Con(rail) Friend Balt on this one, although I don't entirely agree with his way of qualifying the authority. Have a look at the manyu state laws quoted at www.therailroadpolice.com. Also I would suggest reviewing the latest Congressional stab at it as well. See 49 U.S.C. Section 28101. Railroad Officers Jurisdiction is often limited to railroad property, property in the care and custody of the railroad and passengers and personnel of the railroad. These limitations can make investigation off property a frustrating exercise and it is always best for railroad officers to create and maintain quality relationships with the public police. Rick Former Conrail and NS T&E employee (Licensed LE and FC) Former Municipal Police Officer Former Prosecutor Currently employed by RRs for at least 9 more years... BaltACD In many cases, RR Police have the same Police Powers as city, county and state police and they also have a 'police commission' from the states in which they operate. They are not 'mall security' - they are REAL police and in most case carry firearms. The 'eyes' of the RR Police, in addition to employees in performance of thier duties, includes civilians that live near the tracks and report situations they see. What Balt said, except for the "in many cases" part.Railroad police are real police, undergoing the same training and certification as municipal or state policemen would, and they have the power of the law behind them.Because of my unusual way of getting to work whle I was employed by the railroad (by bicycle), I was often questioned by the police. To their credit, though, it only happened once per officer. It was usually followed by pleasant conversation, often ending with "Be careful, okay?" Toward the end of my career I served on the same yard safety committee as the chief (who had a lot more than our yard as his jurisdiction).
Carl -
I have to agree with my Ex-Con(rail) Friend Balt on this one, although I don't entirely agree with his way of qualifying the authority. Have a look at the manyu state laws quoted at www.therailroadpolice.com. Also I would suggest reviewing the latest Congressional stab at it as well. See 49 U.S.C. Section 28101.
Railroad Officers Jurisdiction is often limited to railroad property, property in the care and custody of the railroad and passengers and personnel of the railroad. These limitations can make investigation off property a frustrating exercise and it is always best for railroad officers to create and maintain quality relationships with the public police.
Rick
Former Conrail and NS T&E employee (Licensed LE and FC)
Former Municipal Police Officer
Former Prosecutor
Currently employed by RRs for at least 9 more years...
Tree - You should be aware that this is incorrect in most jurisdictions (States) including New York. I would suggest you review the following: NY Criminal Procedure (CPL) Section 1.20 (defining persons qualified as "Police Officers"), CPL Section 1.20(p) defines "Railroad Policemen" as Police Officers; Section 88 of the NY Railroad Law (RRD) sets forth the procedures for railroads to appoint police, CPL Section 34-a defines the "geographical area of employment" of police officers as the State of New York meaning that Police Officers in New York have statewide jurisdiction. That means an officer's jurisdiction no longer stops at the County, City or Village line in New York. Railroad Police and certain other police do have limitations including those contained in NY RRD Section 88 and 49 U.S.C. 28101
Juniata ManA Santa Fe buddy of mine in the past referred to railroad police as “cinder dicks”.
Deggesty Juniata Man A Santa Fe buddy of mine in the past referred to railroad police as “cinder dicks”. That's an expression that I had not seen a many years.
Juniata Man A Santa Fe buddy of mine in the past referred to railroad police as “cinder dicks”.
That's an expression that I had not seen a many years.
How quickly we forget!
http://www.depauvillefd.org/images/Cinder.htm
and all the wonderful people who shared conversations then that do not now.
Overmodhttp://www.depauvillefd.org/images/Cinder.htm
Fun read. Where did this come from? Tell me about the auther, please. Was it Ed?
Electroliner 1935 Where did this come from?
Marvelous thread by dharmon, written to parody a user back around 2004 who used 'many names', one of which was 'detective_cinderdick'. You can still see some of the posts from that era using that name in 'search the community'. But some of the names are no longer with us, and the best we can do is toast their memory at times of the year like this.
Electroliner 1935Where did this come from?
As I recall, it was "published" as something of a serial. I captured the entire series into one file. Forgot it was on the fire department website.
Pretty much anyone who was a forum regular at the time got mention somewhere in the tale.
wilmette2210do Railroad employees have any nicknames for RR Police?
zardozYes, but none that can be published here.
Umm.. we call them "Officer Smith" or the like.
zugmann zardoz Yes, but none that can be published here. Umm.. we call them "Officer Smith" or the like.
zardoz Yes, but none that can be published here.
So you've never refered to them as Gum Shoes or Cinder Dicks? How come my Metra Conductor buddies on the UP North Line refer to them Gum Shoes? Thanks
wilmette2210So you've never refered to them as Gum Shoes or Cinder Dicks?
Zug has a relative that works (or worked, it's been some time since we had the discussion) in law enforcement....so he's a little sensitive at times about how others feel about cops.
wilmette2210So you've never refered to them as Gum Shoes or Cinder Dicks? How come my Metra Conductor buddies on the UP North Line refer to them Gum Shoes? Thanks
No, I haven't. Never once. I don't know why your Metra conductor buddies do - local vernacular? Why do we call them cabin cars? Why do they refer to that monstrosity Chicago makes as "pizza"? (that last one is a joke)
Gumshoe (to me) sounds like something from a black and white detective movie. I know the terms gumshoe and cinderdick, but I've never heard them used in any sort of mixed company.
If we talk about the RRcops in a broader sense, we (locally, as in the places I've worked) refer to them as "RR cops","RR police", or "RR PD". Substitute your RR of choice in as appropriate.
Convicted One...so he's a little sensitive at times about how others feel about cops.
Really? I mean, given your user name and mutiple stories on this thread for starters? I'm the sensitive one? Heh. Whatever you say.
I'M the one with cop relatives, two uncles who were members of New York's Finest, and I mean no disrepect AT ALL to any others when I say New York City cops are the best in the world.
Besides, the mention that I had two uncles on the NYPD got me rejected for jury duty, twice. Too bad, one was a murder case, would have been interesting.
zugmann Really? I mean, given your user name and mutiple stories on this thread for starters? I'm the sensitive one? Heh. Whatever you say.
My user name has nothing to do with law or it's enforcement, I picked the name in response one former member here who blamed me for all kinds of outlandish stuff that I had no involvement in
I recall the exchange you and I had sometime back in which you expressed no small amount of disapproval of my opinion of cops, citing a relative of yours was in the business.... as if that was supposed to make a difference to me. Having been on that receiving end, I believe I am entitled to share that memory.
Flintlock76I'M the one with cop relatives, two uncles who were members of New York's Finest,
I appreciate your willingness to help comb out the knots. But in the instance I refer to, I'm fairly confident that particular exchange was NOT between you and I.
zugmann zardoz Yes, but none that can be published here.
zardoz
Yes, but none that can be published here.
Convicted One Flintlock76 I'M the one with cop relatives, two uncles who were members of New York's Finest, I appreciate your willingness to help comb out the knots. But in the instance I refer to, I'm fairly confident that particular exchange was NOT between you and I.
Flintlock76 I'M the one with cop relatives, two uncles who were members of New York's Finest,
You're right me old son. An altercation between the two of us is something you'd NEVER forget!
Flintlock76 something you'd NEVER forget!
Likely that I would appreciate that a little less.
Has any one on here ever seen a Railroad Police officer/special agent arrest someone? Thanks
Parental endangerment.
https://www.heraldmailmedia.com/instant/parents-charged-in-viral-greencastle-train-video/article_4ed850ae-688f-11ea-b5cf-9734e000fd3b.html?fbclid=IwAR2vsCr0uVtKPxRFq0kVDj66Zor719iUKff7vFBYNN5GyAed55jszEoOTcc
Throw the book at them but suspend any jail time until the corona-19 crisis is past. But let the sentence be widely known . With kids at home maybe some good will come from whole family education.
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