RR Police

[wilmette2210]

Any Railroaders on here have any dealings with RR Police? If so what was it for? And do they respond to train VS pedesterian/Train VS vehicle incidents? Thanks.

[JoeBlow]

It depends on the railroad and where the incident takes place. 

 

RR police are likely to patrol yards and areas where there have been recent disturbances (vandalism or prior reported tresspassing). A place like Tehachapi Loop or the hump in Barstow will most likely have police presence. If you're talking about a local branch line or spur then the RR might just call the local sherriff. 

RR police forces are relatively small, so they tend to focus on the most likely targets of opportunity (yards, shops, etc.) for hobos, vandals and thiefs. 

 

Whether a railroad has an internal police force, relies on a private security company or the local PD depends on management. UP management has seen it fit to have a relatively large police force that patrols major installations and areas around the permanent way. Some shortlines have one cop on staff who mainly patrols the yard such as Pacific Harbor Lines. 

 

[Convicted One]

wilmette2210

If so what was it for?

Here's a "funny irony" story for you.

Several years ago I attended a Norfolk Southern hiring session for conductors. Out of the original field of over 400 applicants, I survived several cuts until I was among the last 20 being considered (for 10 actual openings). The one-on-one interview went very well.....I was encouraged.

But during the session it was mentioned that there were several "wash-out" areas in the training that was to be provided.....and that one of those that had a tendancy to surprise people who failed was the requirement to hang on the side of a car, while it was  shoved around.  The guy running the show pointed out that for whatever reason some people could do it, while others could not...no rhyme or reason, no bearing on strength,....it just happens so if it happens to you don't feel bad....etc

Anyway I walked out of that training session with a pretty positive expectation that I was gonna get a call ...within the next week to 10 days.

The speil about hanging on that ladder being a "no rhyme or reason" failure point in my anticipated training, really stuck with me.

So much so, that I just HAD to see for myself. I went to a really out of the way siding, one that I had railfanned extensively as a younger man with no mishaps, found an empty auto rack, and hopped on the ladder and started watching my watch. 

During my third timed episode I heard the gravel behind me crunching under the weight of an approaching vehicle. A railroad cop no less...my first encounter with one.

As he took my ID, I asked him if I was going to jail, his reply was "not unless you are already in our computers"

And it was at that moment in time I understood that my very positive expectations to be hired, just flew out the window.

Shame too, because I was a real champ hanging on that ladder, after I figured out that the grab hand needs to be one rung above the shoulder.

To his credit, the RR cop was kind, courteous, and efficient.. I was probably more a nusiance to him for just happening to be there during his routine rounds, than anything else.

BUT THEY ARE OUT THERE

[BaltACD]

Convicted One

 

wilmette2210

If so what was it for? 

Here's a "funny irony" story for you.

Several years ago I attended a Norfolk Southern hiring session for conductors. Out of the original field of over 400 applicants, I survived several cuts until I was among the last 20 being considered (for 10 actual openings). The one-on-one interview went very well.....I was encouraged.

But during the session it was mentioned that there were several "wash-out" areas in the training that was to be provided.....and that one of those that had a tendancy to surprise people who failed was the requirement to hang on the side of a car, while it was  shoved around.  The guy running the show pointed out that for whatever reason some people could do it, while others could not...no rhyme or reason, no bearing on strength,....it just happens so if it happens to you don't feel bad....etc

Anyway I walked out of that training session with a pretty positive expectation that I was gonna get a call ...within the next week to 10 days.

The speil about hanging on that ladder being a "no rhyme or reason" failure point in my anticipated training, really stuck with me.

So much so, that I just HAD to see for myself. I went to a really out of the way siding, one that I had railfanned extensively as a younger man with no mishaps, found an empty auto rack, and hopped on the ladder and started watching my watch. 

During my third timed episode I heard the gravel behind me crunching under the weight of an approaching vehicle. A railroad cop no less...my first encounter with one.

As he took my ID, I asked him if I was going to jail, his reply was "not unless you are already in our computers"

And it was at that moment in time I understood that my very positive expectations to be hired, just flew out the window.

Shame too, because I was a real champ hanging on that ladder, after I figured out that the grab hand needs to be one rung above the shoulder.

To his credit, the RR cop was kind, courteous, and efficient.. I was probably more a nusiance to him for just happening to be there during his routine rounds, than anything else.

BUT THEY ARE OUT THERE

Hanging on the side of a stationary car is one thing, hanging on the side of a car that is being shoved over 'excepted' track for a mile or so at 10 MPH is a totally different experience - especially if it is a cut of 10 or more cars and there is slack action in addition of the undulating G forces of the track structure.

In many cases, RR Police have the same Police Powers as city, county and state police and they also have a 'police commission' from the states in which they operate.  They are not 'mall security' - they are REAL police and in most case carry firearms.

The 'eyes' of the RR Police, in addition to employees in performance of thier duties, includes civilians that live near the tracks and report situations they see.

[Overmod]

Convicted One

During my third timed episode I heard the gravel behind me crunching under the weight of an approaching vehicle. A railroad cop no less...my first encounter with one. As he took my ID, I asked him if I was going to jail, his reply was "not unless you are already in our computers" And it was at that moment in time I understood that my very positive expectations to be hired, just flew out the window.

Sheesh, why didn't you just tell him you were in conductor class and needed to verify the best way to do your job in a way the trainers expressed as a significant concern?

The cop should have written you up for diligence in learning, not written you up for trespass or whatever.  If he's like most of the railroad police I have met, he'd sympathize more with you than with 'management'...

[Convicted One]

BaltACD

Hanging on the side of a stationary car is one thing, hanging on the side of a car that is being shoved over 'excepted' track for a mile or so at 10 MPH is a totally different experience - especially if it is a cut of 10 or more cars and there is slack action in addition of the undulating G forces of the track structure.

Balt, I don't doubt for a second that "operational factors" can make hanging on even more difficult, but the way it was presented to us at the hiring session was that mechanics was the issue.

Expecting to be hired at the time, I didn't want to risk going all the way down to Georgia only to embarass myself over something so simple.....so it was a matter of wanting to dismiss variables.

My first effort was to grasp the rung at waist level, and I quickly saw why this was not a good idea, too much effort dedicated to holding ones self close to the car. finger stress.

Holding a rung high above the head seemed to put   too much required effort on the back muscles, and made me feel like a human pendulum. I could have held on, but only if I couldn't avoid it.

But one rung above the shoulder, with the bicep action absorbing most of the movement was really comfortable to me. That would have been the way I would haVE "tested" had I ever gotten the opportunity. 

Which is what I went out looking for....the posture I could feel comfortable with.

[CShaveRR]

BaltACD

In many cases, RR Police have the same Police Powers as city, county and state police and they also have a 'police commission' from the states in which they operate.  They are not 'mall security' - they are REAL police and in most case carry firearms.

The 'eyes' of the RR Police, in addition to employees in performance of thier duties, includes civilians that live near the tracks and report situations they see.

 

What Balt said, except for the "in many cases" part.

Railroad police are real police, undergoing the same training and certification as municipal or state policemen would, and they have the power of the law behind them.

Because of my unusual way of getting to work whle I was employed by the railroad (by bicycle), I was often questioned by the police.  To their credit, though, it only happened once per officer.  It was usually followed by pleasant conversation, often ending with "Be careful, okay?"  

Toward the end of my career I served on the same yard safety committee as the chief (who had a lot more than our yard as his jurisdiction).

[Convicted One]

Overmod

Sheesh, why didn't you just tell him you were in conductor class and needed to verify the best way to do your job in a way the trainers expressed as a significant concern?

I've thought back to that episode a number of times, and wondered the same thing.

But there is just something about being caught doing something silly, that totally drains your self confidence.

"45 year old man playing choo-choo" was not something I felt like I wanted to try and defend myself against.  Plus at the hiring session, the guy running it emphasized over and again the thorough and sifting dilligence of their in-house security. So...seeing the cop as a possible ally just wasn't on the books for that day.

 Plus, I realize that most of the people a cop is going to run into in a days time really are up to no good. That is their normal.

But running into "Bambi" testing himself for a possible entrance examination is so far from that normal that I doubt he could have believed it.  I mean the rack WAS empty...I had that much going in my favor...but still.

[Convicted One]

Overmod

The cop should have written you up for diligence in learning,

That just reminded me, the above recapped event was NOT my first experience with RR police. 

34-35 years prior the railroads had just implemented the "KarTrak" colored barcode car tracking system.  A friend and I found all this quite interesting, and during our examination of a string of boxcars to see what valuable info the  colorcodes might offer...a middle aged railroad detective came up on us, thinking we were attempting to break into the cars.

Our alibi of "innocent curiosity" didn't impress him one bit. But he also lied to us, he told us the color codes revealed the cars destination.  Why it was important for him to tell us that I'll never understand.

Got off with just a warning that time, too. 

[CShaveRR]

He may have said that because he honestly didn't know.  A lot of people (including those who should have) didn't have a clue about those stripes.

But I doubt that he'd allow you to teach him about the labels yourself.  I was fortunate enough to see these labels and decipher them myself without being detained.  Of course, I did have a prolem with the "*" strip that occasionally appeared in the validity-check position.

[Convicted One]

At the time, I had no clue either.  But somewhere over the years I came into possession of a key that laid it all out.  A relative that had absolutely no connection to railroading passed, and it was among his effects.

[Overmod]

CShaveRR

Of course, I did have a problem with the "*" strip that occasionally appeared in the validity-check position.

Tell me more about this.  I assume you are talking about the parity check in line 13.  

Calculating the value was bad enough!  Even Wikipedia makes it hard to figure out (if you aren't a computer nerd).  Each of the numbers encoded by a line is multiplied by 2 to the power of the numerical line position -2 (the reason being the counting was done from computer 0 rather than numerical 1 for first position).  Then you multiply the result by powers of two starting with the first numerical line value (which is position 2): 1 for the second line (which is identity multiplication), 2 for the second (which, channelling Tom Lehrer, is of course the third, just checking to ensure you're following along...) up to 512 for the last (10th).  Then add up all the numbers modulo 11 and you get the value.  

Unfortunately this didn't give you as much error correction capability as it did error recognition -- the deck being stacked against the GTE system almost from the beginning in the understanding of almost anyone who understood the railroad environment.  Perhaps it was assumed in the America of the Johnson Administration that the railroads WOULD maintain those labels with flawless perfection because they were Federally mandated ... or something.

Unsurprisingly a colossal flop, abandoned within a decade of practical instantiation.  Its chief effect was to inoculate the railroads against any scheme of automated car identification, no matter how good it might have been, until well into the 1980s.

[tree68]

Overmod

 Its chief effect was to inoculate the railroads against any scheme of automated car identification, no matter how good it might have been, until well into the 1980s.

And now it's all RFID and little gray bricks on the sides of the cars...

[BaltACD]

CShaveRR

 

BaltACD

In many cases, RR Police have the same Police Powers as city, county and state police and they also have a 'police commission' from the states in which they operate.  They are not 'mall security' - they are REAL police and in most case carry firearms.

The 'eyes' of the RR Police, in addition to employees in performance of thier duties, includes civilians that live near the tracks and report situations they see. 

What Balt said, except for the "in many cases" part.

I stated 'in many cases' because I believe there are a few states where full police powers cannot be conveyed to 'private' police - I could be mistaken.  As we learn over time - the exception is always the rule.

[Convicted One]

BaltACD

I stated 'in many cases' because I believe there are a few states where full police powers cannot be conveyed to 'private' police - I

When you first qualified it as "in many cases",  I didn't interpret it the same way Cshave did. I took it more along the lines of "selective enforcement", where  even if the officer is so empowered, they (still) might elect to not involve themselves.

Two drunks fighting outside a bar as the officer is driving by, or some wino relieving himself on a downtown street corner, or kids with illegal fireworks,....stuff like that.  I'm sure there is some "mind your primary duties" type instruction, for productivity  as well as possible undue liability.

I believe that most civil law  enforcement agencies are sworn to serve the peace, or "greater common good"...or something like that. 

Not knowing first hand, but I'd speculate that there is no such requirement for private agencies.

[tree68]

Convicted One

I'm sure there is some "mind your primary duties" type instruction, for productivity  as well as possible undue liability.

Generally speaking, a police officer only has authority in the juridiction in which he works.

There are exceptions, hot pursuit being the best known.  Around here, it's not at all unusual for the small town officers to help each other out and respond outside their jurisdiction, but when it comes down to the arrest, the officer with jurisdiction will generally handle that.

If they happen to be outside their jurisdiction, they may turn a blind eye to offenses with minimal consequence (the drunk), but would probably intervene it was something violent.

Many RR police travel in unmarked vehicles, and not in any uniform, so you  wouldn't generally know just exactly who that was that just drove by.

[tdmidget]

I think you will find that railway police have more authority, in some cases, than the locals. They are ordained by federal law, not local. They were established initially in response to train robberies which were a threat to Postal traffic and interstate commerce. They enforce federal as well as local laws. That's why they are called "special agents".

[Convicted One]

tree68

If they happen to be outside their jurisdiction, they may turn a blind eye

How are jurisdictions determined for RR police? Local? State? Regional? other?

Would a Norfolk Southern RR cop based in Missouri have jurisdiction on Norfolk Southern property in Ohio?  Any different off Norfolk Southern property in Ohio?

[tree68]

Convicted One

How are jurisdictions determined for RR police? Local? State? Regional? other?

Can't answer that, but as someone pointed out, there may be different requirements in different states.  It might simply be a matter of some paperwork...  I would opine that within a given state, they'd be a lot like the state police - they'd have authority everywhere.

[ChuckCobleigh]

This may be of interest on the topic, from Title 49 of the U.S. Code (at least as of last year’s edition) part of the section shown below which may answer a couple of questions:

§ 28101. Rail police officers

(a) IN GENERAL.—Under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Transportation, a rail police officer who is directly employed by or contracted by a rail carrier and certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of a State may enforce the laws of any jurisdiction in which the rail carrier owns property, to the extent of the authority of a police officer certified or commissioned under the laws of that jurisdiction, to protect—

(1) employees, passengers, or patrons of the rail carrier;

(2) property, equipment, and facilities owned, leased, operated, or maintained by the rail carrier;

(3) property moving in interstate or foreign commerce in the possession of the rail carrier; and

(4) personnel, equipment, and material moving by rail that are vital to the national defense.

 

[Convicted One]

ChuckCobleigh

This may be of interest on the topic, from Title 49 of the U.S. Code (at least as of last year’s edition) part of the section shown below which may answer a couple of questions:

§ 28101. Rail police officers

(a) IN GENERAL.—Under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Transportation, a rail police officer who is directly employed by or contracted by a rail carrier and certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of a State may enforce the laws of any jurisdiction in which the rail carrier owns property, to the extent of the authority of a police officer certified or commissioned under the laws of that jurisdiction, to protect—

(1) employees, passengers, or patrons of the rail carrier;

(2) property, equipment, and facilities owned, leased, operated, or maintained by the rail carrier;

(3) property moving in interstate or foreign commerce in the possession of the rail carrier; and

(4) personnel, equipment, and material mov- ing by rail that are vital to the national de- fense.

 

 

That makes more sense.  If I'm a deep pocketed entity with a private police force, I really don't believe that I would  want my armed personnel  trying to intervene in a domestic dispute where things can powderkeg pretty quick and potential innocent bystanders could become plaintiffs.  

RADIO to the local authorities to help expedite a response? Sure....no problem there.  But I wouldn't want them out "slumming" to private property  engaging private entities over non-rail related issues.

[NittanyLion]

Here in DC, it isn't unheard of to see Amtrak police turn up in odd places.  One of the more low key things I've seen was an Amtrak police SUV providing support to a disabled vehicle blocking a lane on the George Washington Memorial Parkway, rather than the US Park Police.

I've also once saw an incident of some sort near Union Station that attracted no less than five different agencies: US Capitol Police, US Park Police, Amtrak Police, Metro PD, and Metro Transit PD.

[wjstix]

About who has policing powers on a railroad, Minnesota Statute 629.363 states that "A conductor of a railwy train may arrest a person committing an act upon the train prohibited by sections 609.681, 609.72, and 609.855, subdivision 1, with or without a warrant, and take that person to the proper law enforcement authorities, or to the station agent at the next railway station."

Reminds me of a trip years ago coming back to the Twin Cities from Chicago with my (now) wife on the Empire Builder. There was a guy who was very drunk and the guy was getting more loud and obnoxious as we rolled through western Wisconsin. I mentioned to wife-to-be that he had better pull himself together or he was going to be in trouble once we crossed the Mississippi into Minnesota. About the time we hit the Mississippi, the conductor took the drunk down into one of the small lounges Superliner cars have that wasn't being used, and stayed there with him. When the train made it's first Minnesota stop in Winona, there were several police / squad cars waiting at the station to pick the guy up. As the guy was being lead away, he yelled back "hey, what about my baggage?" and the conductor yelled back "don't worry, it'll be waiting for you in St.Paul" (about 100 miles away.)

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/2018/cite/629.363?keyword_type=all&keyword=railway+conductor

[BaltACD]

wjstix

Reminds me of a trip years ago coming back to the Twin Cities from Chicago with my (now) wife on the Empire Builder. There was a guy who was very drunk and the guy was getting more loud and obnoxious as we rolled through western Wisconsin. I mentioned to wife-to-be that he had better pull himself together or he was going to be in trouble once we crossed the Mississippi into Minnesota. About the time we hit the Mississippi, the conductor took the drunk down into one of the small lounges Superliner cars have that wasn't being used, and stayed there with him. When the train made it's first Minnesota stop in Winona, there were several police / squad cars waiting at the station to pick the guy up. As the guy was being lead away, he yelled back "hey, what about my baggage?" and the conductor yelled back "don't worry, it'll be waiting for you in St.Paul" (about 100 miles away.)

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/2018/cite/629.363?keyword_type=all&keyword=railway+conductor

It is a normal action for Amtrak train personnel to request local authorities meet the train at some specified point so that 'unruly' passenger(s) may be removed from the train and into the custody of the local authorities.

[Deggesty]

56 or so years ago, I was in Hattiesburg when the northbound Southerner came in. As I was about to take a picture of the train, a well-dressed man queried me about my desire to take the picture. I did convince him that the picture was for my personal collection. Apparently, there had been some trouble there recently--or he was a new hire and wanted to exercise his authority?

My other meeting with a railroad special agent came a few years later--when I ate the evening meal with one; I knew his brother and his sister-in-law well, and they had invited me to eat with them that evening. I may have seen him once some time later when I was at the Terminal Station in Birmingham. 

As to an Amtrak conductor's calling local police when a passenger is troublesome, I doubt that it would be convenient to call for an Amtrak policeman to handle the situation unless the matter arose at or near a large station.

[SALfan]

My guess is that each state has granted the RR "concurrent jurisdiction" for the RR's facilities within the state, which may be exercised by anyone employed as a member of the RR's police force.  Don't have any experience with RR's, but that's how it's handled for some facilities which require law enforcement-type activities.  It can probably be worded in a way that allows for off-site investigation of incidents which happen on RR property, or pursuit of people found trespassing who run away and leave RR property.

[greyhounds]

When I was at the Illinois Central Gulf I ask a high ranking railroad cop about jurisdiction.  He told me they had the same powers and authority as a deputy sheriff in any county the railroad operated in.

They can stop you for a traffic violation.  But they focus on protecting the railroad.

[Convicted One]

greyhounds

When I was at the Illinois Central Gulf I ask a high ranking railroad cop about jurisdiction.  He told me they had the same powers and authority as a deputy sheriff in any county the railroad operated in.

They can stop you for a traffic violation.  But they focus on protecting the railroad.

 

When it comes right down to it, the same is often true about county sheriffs. While each individual officer might have the authority to pursue myriad issues with you, reality is many of them are aften attending to higher priorities than just some "junk infraction".

My bet is that not too many "seat belt" tickets are given out by RR police, even at grade crossings. 

[BaltACD]

Convicted One

My bet is that not too many "seat belt" tickets are given out by RR police, even at grade crossings. 

My guess is not too many 'seat belt tickets' are given out by 'real' police as from my personal observations they are among the primary offenders.

[Paul of Covington]

BaltACD

My guess is not too many 'seat belt tickets' are given out by 'real' police as from my personal observations they are among the primary offenders.

   I have noticed that in news reports of accidents involving police officers, they frequently mention that they were not using seatbelts.  One reason I've heard, though, is that they have so much gear hanging on their belts that it is extremely awkward to use them.  Which reminds me, one state trooper where I used to work said they often get kidded about the way they walk, with their arms out, but they have to because of all the gear on their belts.