Norm48327And in the other 47???
The rules are the same for all designated crossings nationwide (quiet zones notwithstanding). We have several trail crossings - not even open to vehicles - that we blow for. Local practice may vary.
The way I read the emphasized comment is that those states don't recognize "quiet" crossings. I don't know if that's actually the case and I'm not going to dig for it.
I could envision a radio-based, standalone private crossing warning system that would include sensors a certain distance out from the crossing. When the sensors detected a train, they would send a signal back to the crossing to activate whatever the warning was. This could all run on solar/battery and could be completely independent of the railroad.
The warning at the crossing could be as simple as flashing lights. There are even solar powered farm/fence gate closers on the market that could be adapted to provide crossing gates, if one wanted to get fancy...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
OvermodI don't think it is possible, politically or otherwise, to eliminate existing private access across railroad ROW especially where there is no other convenient access to the property involved.
I believe the federal program to eliminate private and lightly-used crossings exists, but needs more funding to effect.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
... They blow at the appropriate distance when they see a vehicle or person there. Or, I guess, as soon as they come into view of the crossing and someone is there.
Whereupon hangs the point of 'something' that can identify when something is on or near (or critically approaching) a crossing before the train gets in view ... back at the point a whistle post for a private crossing would have indicated it appropriate to begin the required blow even if the view were blocked at that point.
Railroads are between a rock and a hard place with the 47 state policy, which minimizes the amount of neighborhood-blasting horn use. I think it's clear that an alert attorney can tie a hapless trainman up in knots as to exactly where he sounded the horn, and how he should have been prepared to see the client's car approaching while still around the curve, in the rainy dusk, etc.
Note that one aspect of a 'proximity' signal is a variant of crossing horn, downscaled and located 'lower' on the smaller private crossing than it can be for a "normal" grade crossing. This would allow very good SPL in the 'approach zone' of a typical private crossing, while minimizing 'sound pollution' at greater distances. It does not take much battery power to actuate a good loud device as well as some strategic lighting ... or, as one poster noted, oriented mirrors or light-pipe arrays that direct and lense some of the locomotive's light at right angles to constitute a good warning for minimal power and complexity.
ChuckCobleigh Norm48327 There are also many private crossings that have signs designating them as such and tell the motorists to look both ways. Adding to their ineffectiveness, trains do not normally sound their horns at them. = = o = Train is approaching public crossings at grade with engine in front. Signal starts not less than 15 seconds but not more than 20 seconds before reaching the crossing. If movement is 45 mph or greater, signal starts at or about the crossing sign, but not more than 1/4 mile before the crossing if there is no sign. Signal is prolonged or repeated until the engine completely occupies the crossing(s). In addition, this signal is used when approaching private crossings if pedestrians or motor vehicles are at or near the crossing. (In the states of California, Idaho and Montana, the whistle is sounded at all crossings, public and private.) From this UP link.
Norm48327 There are also many private crossings that have signs designating them as such and tell the motorists to look both ways. Adding to their ineffectiveness, trains do not normally sound their horns at them.
Train is approaching public crossings at grade with engine in front. Signal starts not less than 15 seconds but not more than 20 seconds before reaching the crossing. If movement is 45 mph or greater, signal starts at or about the crossing sign, but not more than 1/4 mile before the crossing if there is no sign. Signal is prolonged or repeated until the engine completely occupies the crossing(s).
In addition, this signal is used when approaching private crossings if pedestrians or motor vehicles are at or near the crossing. (In the states of California, Idaho and Montana, the whistle is sounded at all crossings, public and private.)
From this UP link.
And in the other 47???
Norm
Norm48327There are also many private crossings that have signs designating them as such and tell the motorists to look both ways. Adding to their ineffectiveness, trains do not normally sound their horns at them.
OvermodIn my opinion, nothing 'passive' will make much of a difference when the time comes.
I agree with that. In my area there are a lot of crossings marked only with crossbucks and people frequently disregard them on a regular basis. There are also many private crossings that have signs designating them as such and tell the motorists to look both ways. Adding to their ineffectiveness, trains do not normally sound their horns at them.
wanswheel The CR75 crossing is bureaucratically due for improvement. https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2918902/LAC-PUC-Railroad-Crossing.pdf
The CR75 crossing is bureaucratically due for improvement.
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2918902/LAC-PUC-Railroad-Crossing.pdf
But that would have done nothing to protect the family. They appearenty ended up at that crossing after being hit at Co. Rd. 32.
Firelock76Not a perfect solution, but better than none.
In my opinion, nothing 'passive' will make much of a difference when the time comes. It makes me think a bit of the parable of Dives and Lazarus, where he says 'if they would not listen to Moses and the prophets, what makes you think they would listen to you if you returned from the dead'. Signage is signage; the only things that matter are those that actively tell you a train is coming and about to be there.
The American propensity to speed up on yellow lights and jackrabbit to the other side of crossings when the red lights start to flash may have to be changed, too, but that in itself is a very different thing from reading sun-faded words on signs.
Be interesting to ask the loss-mit people in stores whether more aggressive signage about shoplifting actually cuts down on the theft rate ... and which signs are most effective in producing the result. That would be your guide to figuring out better signage. I suspect they involve active supervision coupled with dreadful civil -- not, please note, "Darwinian" -- consequences for technical breach of the law.
In the short term, a solution might be to add a placard under the crossbuck arms that simply reads:
Stop
Look
Listen
LIVE
Not a perfect solution, but better than none.
schlimmIf it struck at Cty. Rte. 32, essentially an entrance drive to the family's ranch, it means those sort of crossings should be shut down, eliminated to improve the safety of passenger lines. Nothing is 100%, but crossings such as 32 and totally private crossings should be eliminated.
While I will certainly not disagree with the idea, I don't think it is possible, politically or otherwise, to eliminate existing private access across railroad ROW especially where there is no other convenient access to the property involved.
What I think is likelier to succeed in the short to 'medium' run, is better methods of warning or protection at these crossings. One approach would be a version of the interlocked gates used in Britain, where someone desiring to cross the ROW must stop, proactively notify dispatch and receive permission, and then open and afterwards close and lock a physical barrier (perhaps with enough strength and height to prevent inadvertent 'intrusion' of large accidentally-rolling vehicles).
The approach I was pursuing was to provide 'aftermarket' crossing warning devices that would be independently powered (battery/solar) and contain its own differential-enabled GPS core. Each device would communicate, probably via an extension of the PTC SBR system, with locomotives. Each would contain its own distinctive address (probably an assigned UUID or similar address harmonized with one of the developing IoT schemes). Locomotives would detect each of these devices within range, check it against a registry of locations, ensure the device battery state and programming were up-to-date, etc.; the device would give a variety of signals indicating relative proximity and speed of the approaching train and be capable of capturing and sending crossing-obstruction information (probably derived from machine vision and structured light) "in time" to permit proper response. I expect it would contain a sizable amount of variable-speed video recording, for example going to fast frame rate when it detects the presence of a vehicle or person.
When it appeared that digital FM was going to catch on, I was lobbying for an extension of the old Nixon-era 'automatic on' version of civil-defense broadcasting, with the idea that crossings could contain low-power broadcasting stations which would automatically turn on and tune FM radios (including simple radios built into new MP3 players or smartphones -- this dates when this was going on, doesn't it? -- and would then broadcast an alert signal which would then cause a customized response on those radios. This would specifically include a louder mode or distinctive signal that would be toggled by particular horn activation or emergency broadcast from the locomotive (or local police or fire equipment).
These alternatives spread much of the cost of the technology across a large installed base, with common and expandable standards, and allow capable alert devices (with little theft potential or resale value) to be provided even for private users at nominal cost and prospective maintenance expense. They are several orders of magnitude cheaper than grade separation -- and grade separation is itself no sure guarantee of safety whether via bridge or underpass.
The CR 75.1 crossing in question is at MP 632.753 according to the DOT Crossing Inventory (dated 3/4/16). As the head end is in the same view as the MP, I would opine that the collision occurred at the CR 32 crossing and it took that long to stop the train. I don't think that runs counter to conventional wisdom.
The crossing inventory also indicates crossbucks only - no lights.
The private crossing is listed at MP 632.254, almost exactly a half mile from the CR 75.1 crossing. According to the DOT crossing inventory (dated 3/4/16), there are no signs.
If we assume (usual caveats) that the family lived at the residence at the private crossing, they would certainly be aware of its existance. It wouldn't be like it was a total stranger being surprised.
The reason it is of some importance to know which was the crossing where the van was initially struck is this. Here's a 79 mph passenger train with hundreds of passengers aboard. It strikes a van. It could have derailed with a large toll of dead and injured.
If it struck at Cty. Rte. 32, essentially an entrance drive to the family's ranch, it means those sort of crossings should be shut down, eliminated to improve the safety of passenger lines. Nothing is 100%, but crossings such as 32 and totally private crossings should be eliminated.
Sign says 632.9.
I'm with you Overmod, there's nothing funny about death at a grade crossing, no matter what the reason.
Making snarky comments over an incident where a vehicle gets trashed at a crossing with no death or injuries involved is another matter, it'll probably wind up on one of those "Americas's Dumbest" TV shows anyway, but this certainly isn't one of those times.
Just horrible. Be careful out there people, all of you, please. Death is all around you and can come from anywhere. I passed three accidents today alone.
Norm48327 You are likely right Larry. The proximity of the two crossings seems about right and the train probably stopped on the 75.1 crossing. Different news sources= different stories.
You are likely right Larry. The proximity of the two crossings seems about right and the train probably stopped on the 75.1 crossing. Different news sources= different stories.
I think we are all (Norm, Balt, Larry, myself) in agreement now with the police report. The car was struck at Cty. 32 (crossbucks only) and came to a stop at Cty 75.1 (flasher and bell).
Confess, though: it is fun to watch.
[I have been carefully avoiding the black-humor aspects that the I Hate Foamers site might have fun with, a bunch of people arguing about what road crossing the beautiful daughters were actually killed on. But I found the counterpart of it on the Facebook comments to the Panhandle video, where one guy says to another "your seniority just moved up two slots" -- I suspect it's intended as humor, but it really ain't funny.
For the love of all that is holy... who cares? Does the route number really matter to anyone here? Serously, folks.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
schlimmYou totally ignored the point, of course. The point was, that based on ZERO knowledge, you disputed the State Patrol's accident report as to which crossing the accident occured at. Amazing abilities to divine that from 2000 miles!!
Turns out that he was pretty good from 2000 miles away, and he did provide his reasons for thinking so... snarkasm to the contrary.
Norm48327 Two days after the accident the Trinidad Chronicle-News is reporting it as being on County Rd. 75.1. I was basing my earlier comment on the State Patrol report that said it was Co. Rd. 32. That's about 1/2 mile west of Co. Rd. 32. http://www.thechronicle-news.com/local/five-killed-one-injured-in-amtrak-collision-east-of-trinidad/article_0842e1d2-3bf6-11e6-bffa-7b27bb41acd7.html
Two days after the accident the Trinidad Chronicle-News is reporting it as being on County Rd. 75.1. I was basing my earlier comment on the State Patrol report that said it was Co. Rd. 32. That's about 1/2 mile west of Co. Rd. 32.
http://www.thechronicle-news.com/local/five-killed-one-injured-in-amtrak-collision-east-of-trinidad/article_0842e1d2-3bf6-11e6-bffa-7b27bb41acd7.html
My earlier comments were based on the realities that the police report of CR 32 being the location of the accident didn't jibe with the published pictures.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The private crossing we've been discussing is number 003323F, MP 632.254. The GPS coordinates plot a little east on Acme Mapper.
The CR 75.1 crossing is 003324M, listed only as "Co Rd." Made the search a little confusing as CR 75.1 also crosses the rail line several miles further east.
One image in the news reports showed rescue workers standing by at the CR 75.1 crossing. This would make sense as the head end of the train would likely have stopped closer to that than the private crossing.
I would opine that the reporter was talking about where emergency crews accessed the vehicle, possibly not putting two and two together that the vehicle was carried for a distance by the train.
The google earth view shows County Road 32 as an East-West road that intersects the BNSF main track and then ends as a "public road" with a crossing entending onto private property.
There only appears to be private property just east - and across the tracks- and that private property would appear to be the only likely user of the crossing. If this private property is also the residence of those killed then their being on this crossing can be explained.
However, the Colorado Hwy. Patrol report says the vehicle was northbound when struck. The most likely nearby place for this to occur would be on County Rd. 75.1 (a north-south road) that is located toward Trinidad a short distance from County Rd 32. My info indicates County Rd. 75.1 is protected by bells and flashers.
Will someone with access to later law inforcement data please help clarify whether the van was on 75.1 or 32.
If this was a private driveway would the railroad even have whistle posts?
It's the Google Earth view we have seen for several days. Coming out of the backside of the farm, there appears to be a dirt/grass road that connects to Rt. 75 about 2500' SW of the farm.
Andrew FalconerA steel or stone bridge somewhere over the tracks has be safer than a grade crossing.
No question there. The problem is the hundreds of crossings without sufficient road traffic to justify the expense of building and maintaining such structures.
Add to that the possibility that the detour around a closed crossing of this type may run to tens of miles in some areas, and the problem is thus compounded.
In this incident, a look at the satellite images of the site seem to show the crossing is, indeed, a driveway. The only possible replacement would seem to be a road paralleling the BNSF line out to County Road 75-1. There's not really enough real estate for a bridge.
Crossing in question: N 37 13' 14" W 104 27' 29"
A steel or stone bridge somewhere over the tracks has be safer than a grade crossing.
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
In the Trinidad Chronicle-News is a news item detailing a memorial service for the Miller family tomorrow, July 1. The memorial will be in the Hoehne High School's gym at ten in the morning. The gym is about 200 yards from the BNSF line that the SW Chief runs on, and the WB #3 is scheduled to arrive at Trinidad at 9:50 am. If it arrives at 10:33 am like it did today, that's gonna be just bad.
Let's hope for once that the train is significantly delayed for once. (The SW Chief usually has a pretty good on-time performance, but just this once, I'm wishing for some delay into Trinidad.)
UPDATE: It appears #3 arrived at Trinidad at 9:59 AM Friday morning, so at least the train didn't come through blowing for the crossing during the memorial service. A blessing.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.