Due to limited funding, signalized or “active” crossing installations are prioritized for the busiest roads and/or the busiest railroads. The remaining crossings are non-signalized or “passive” crossings. Some passive crossings also have relatively little train traffic. With some of those, the sparse train traffic is also routinely slow moving. But with some passive crossings having sparse train traffic, the traffic that does exist moves quite fast.
As I understand it, the crossing where this accident occurred is one of those passive crossings with just two Amtrak trains per day. If that is true, this is a passive crossing with very small traffic density, which runs relatively fast.
People who routinely cross at such crossings get complacent because they rarely encounter a train. But if they do happen to encounter a train, the encounter is very unforgiving due to the high speed of the train.
That is why I think a LOOK FOR TRAINS sign would be helpful at this particular crossing. The message would help dissolve the natural onset of complacency.
Otherwise, with the complacency arising from never encountering a train, a driver is likely to perceive the crossbuck as just informing that a railroad track is there without conveying the deeper meaning that a driver must not cross unless he or she determines that no train is approaching.
There is no fix. There is just "better". As much as pubic funding allows, eliminate, close and improve road crossings. That's it.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Euclid There is a standard sign sometimes added to crossbucks that says "LOOK FOR TRAINS". I have seen it used where visibility to each side is limited, but perhaps it could apply to situations like the one in this accident where the cause was possibly complacency due to infrequent trains. The news says the driver entered the crossing without stopping as would be proper if he had observed no train approaching.
There is a standard sign sometimes added to crossbucks that says "LOOK FOR TRAINS". I have seen it used where visibility to each side is limited, but perhaps it could apply to situations like the one in this accident where the cause was possibly complacency due to infrequent trains.
The news says the driver entered the crossing without stopping as would be proper if he had observed no train approaching.
Found the following information referring to specifications and Signage:
See link @ http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/xings/com_roaduser/07010/sec04a.htm
The following is an excerpted Section from the FHWA Manual.
"Railroad-Highway Grade Crossing Handbook - Revised Second Edition August 2007" "Section IV Identification of Alternatives"
[ The information below is from the FHWA Manual, and on rewiew of the Manual, one finds that it covers, in minute detail all the diamensions of Hwy-Rail Grade Crossings. Signage that qualifies and is specified by the Manual; for those crossings are protected by Passive Railroad warning signage. Such signage is constructed and lettered with specific warning devices to cope with the multitued of situations presented by each crossing, and the protection required as outlined.]
H. Passive Traffic Control Devices
'...Passive traffic control devices provide static messages of warning, guidance, and, in some instances, mandatory action for the driver. Their purpose is to identify and direct attention to the location of a crossing to permit drivers and pedestrians to take appropriate action. Passive traffic control devices consist of regulatory signs, warning signs, guide signs, and supplemental pavement markings. They are basic devices and are incorporated into the design of active traffic control devices..."
BaltACDPictures published don't support the police story line
The pictures and Google show a crossing of an unimproved road with only a crossbucks consistent with the police report's specified county road.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm BaltACD schlimm BaltACD It was on a long tangent so far more likely the train started slowing and hit the van at much less than 79 mph. But of course you (2000 miles away) know more which crossing was involved than the police actually on the accident scene. Remarkable!! If trains slowed or initiated emergency brake applications every time it looked like a vehicle was going to be on the crossing at the time the train occupied the crosssing - nearly EVERY CROSSING would become Stop & Flag and trains would rarely be able to reach track speed. Published articles have conflicted on whether the vehicle was stopped on the crossing or moving across the crossing. In either case the drivers 'intent' must be called into question and after death their is no way to interrogate his state of mind. You totally ignored the point, of course. The point was, that based on ZERO knowledge, you disputed the State Patrol's accident report as to which crossing the accident occured at. Amazing abilities to divine that from 2000 miles!! The driver's intent is largely irrelevant. It was his or her fault, i.e., a tragic human failure.
BaltACD schlimm BaltACD It was on a long tangent so far more likely the train started slowing and hit the van at much less than 79 mph. But of course you (2000 miles away) know more which crossing was involved than the police actually on the accident scene. Remarkable!! If trains slowed or initiated emergency brake applications every time it looked like a vehicle was going to be on the crossing at the time the train occupied the crosssing - nearly EVERY CROSSING would become Stop & Flag and trains would rarely be able to reach track speed. Published articles have conflicted on whether the vehicle was stopped on the crossing or moving across the crossing. In either case the drivers 'intent' must be called into question and after death their is no way to interrogate his state of mind.
schlimm BaltACD It was on a long tangent so far more likely the train started slowing and hit the van at much less than 79 mph. But of course you (2000 miles away) know more which crossing was involved than the police actually on the accident scene. Remarkable!!
BaltACD
It was on a long tangent so far more likely the train started slowing and hit the van at much less than 79 mph. But of course you (2000 miles away) know more which crossing was involved than the police actually on the accident scene. Remarkable!!
If trains slowed or initiated emergency brake applications every time it looked like a vehicle was going to be on the crossing at the time the train occupied the crosssing - nearly EVERY CROSSING would become Stop & Flag and trains would rarely be able to reach track speed.
Published articles have conflicted on whether the vehicle was stopped on the crossing or moving across the crossing. In either case the drivers 'intent' must be called into question and after death their is no way to interrogate his state of mind.
You totally ignored the point, of course. The point was, that based on ZERO knowledge, you disputed the State Patrol's accident report as to which crossing the accident occured at. Amazing abilities to divine that from 2000 miles!!
The driver's intent is largely irrelevant. It was his or her fault, i.e., a tragic human failure.
Pictures published don't support the police story line.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Phoebe Vet,
And what is wrong with taking your children out of school to go hunting or to go on vacation?
Schools are not the only source of education.
All I know is I look at that picture of those little angels and I want to break down and cry.
Now they are angels, but I still want to cry.
I agree that the Police can be trusted to do the right analysis. There is no evidence that there is any politization of these local police in any way.
At the Federal level, I can provide evidence by return mail regarding politzation of Federal agencies, but nothing that has not alreadybeen in USA newspapers and/or magazines.
But my main thoiughts are to console the driver's and his victims' familes and the trian crew and their familiels.
edblysard And here we go.........
And here we go.........
Again, and again, and again. SOSDD.
Norm
23 17 46 11
So, we know that the van failed to yield to the train, and that it did not stop on the crossing. That indicates that the van entered the crossing just a split second before the train did, and was struck by the train. Is there any report of the speed of the train during this collision?
daveklepper I believe in giving credid where credit is due. Schlimm, that is an excellent analysis and explains the situation. Thank you.
I believe in giving credid where credit is due. Schlimm, that is an excellent analysis and explains the situation. Thank you.
Thanks but all I did was to read the state police report. Unlike some posters, I actually believe our police are capable of correctly examining an accident scene.
BaltACDSo a passenger train operating at track speed (79 MPH most likely) was able to strike the van on the crossbuck crossing and stop within a train length????? since there are rail cars on the crossbuck crossing. Looking at the Google Map that was a part of the television station's news feed - much more likely the vehicle was struck at the CR 36 crossing and drug until the train stopped fouling the CR 32 crossing.
schlimm Norm48327 The State Police report says 32. And the pictures clearly show a crossbucks and a dirt/gravel road, which ends at the crossing.
Norm48327
The State Police report says 32. And the pictures clearly show a crossbucks and a dirt/gravel road, which ends at the crossing.
So a passenger train operating at track speed (79 MPH most likely) was able to strike the van on the crossbuck crossing and stop within a train length????? since there are rail cars on the crossbuck crossing. Looking at the Google Map that was a part of the television station's news feed - much more likely the vehicle was struck at the CR 36 crossing and drug until the train stopped fouling the CR 32 crossing.
Norm48327County Rd 32 can be seen on Google Earth @ 37*13'14"N 104*24'29"W. That's due east of El Moro. The county road ends at the tracks and the crossing appears to be private leading to a ranch. I don't think there are usually crossbucks on private crossings. That's assuming the media got the road number right.
One poster here put up information from an unnamed source which appears to be false.
ABC 7
"Trooper Art Gumke says the crossing is marked with signs but doesn't have gates to stop vehicles. The girl's parents were identified as 32-year-old Stephen Miller and 33-year-old Christine Miller of Trinidad. Their daughters, ages 6, 2 and 8 months, also died.
The Colorado State Patrol released a statement saying a 2005 Chrysler Town & Country failed to yield right of way to the train and was struck at 9:45 a.m. Sunday just outside Trinidad. Four of those killed, including the driver, were pronounced dead at the scene. The fifth fatality was pronounced at a hospital."
NY is increasing fines for crossing gate violations
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/drivers-fail-stop-train-crossing-gates-face-higher-article-1.2672688
Electroliner 1935 The train was delayed 7 hr 10 min by the accident. Was shown as 8 min late at Raton and 7 hr, 18 at Trinidad. I suspect there were delays to recrew and to check out the P42 and for the sheriff to release the scene but that seems long. My heart feels for the engineer seeing kids in front of him and he is powerless to do anything.
The train was delayed 7 hr 10 min by the accident. Was shown as 8 min late at Raton and 7 hr, 18 at Trinidad. I suspect there were delays to recrew and to check out the P42 and for the sheriff to release the scene but that seems long. My heart feels for the engineer seeing kids in front of him and he is powerless to do anything.
Never overestimate the zeal of local authorities to play CSI when dealing with a incident like this - also getting the proper 'units' to respond to perform their specialized functions can be an issue.
County Rd 32 can be seen on Google Earth @ 37*13'14"N 104*24'29"W. That's due east of El Moro. The county road ends at the tracks and the crossing appears to be private leading to a ranch. I don't think there are usually crossbucks on private crossings.
That's assuming the media got the road number right.
As for the pick up truck, you can see the gate come down behind the truck. One lucky driver to survive and walk away.
diningcar Apology! I said the train was eastbound while in fact it was westbound toward Trinidad. Other technical info regarding public crossing, flashers and bells, tangent viewing distance I believe to be correct. MP's increase from east (La Junta MP 555) to west.
Apology! I said the train was eastbound while in fact it was westbound toward Trinidad. Other technical info regarding public crossing, flashers and bells, tangent viewing distance I believe to be correct. MP's increase from east (La Junta MP 555) to west.
1. The state police report says the van was not stopped on the tracks. It says at Cty Hghwy 32, which is a small, unimproved road.
2. You have said twice the crossing had flashing lights and bells, yet that is not apparent in the pictures posted.
crossing
Excerpt from Canon City Daily Record, Jun. 27
Keith Schlabach, the cousin of Christina Miller, said she was with her husband, Steve, and their four girls when they died in the collision about 3 miles north of Trinidad.
"We were at church and when they didn't show up for church, we were worried about what was going on," Schlabach said Monday morning. "We thought they were broken down or something. One of the other guys was driving back from church toward Steve's house to see what happened, and then he got to the tracks."
Schlabach said the route the Millers normally took to Trinidad Christian Church, an unincorporated congregation, crossed train tracks…
"Steve was very likable," Schlabach said. "He was very outgoing. Everybody got along with Steve. He's just that kind of guy. He really liked reaching out to people — reaching out to people and making friends."
samfp1943 Wanswheel, reported one of those immediate Internet appeal for Response to the incident.. A 'gofundme' appeal for money for four of the young victims of the accident....Personally, I would be highly suspicious of something like that; in this day and time, it might be viewd as "an opportunity" to make some fast sympathetic cash for the unscrupelous...
Wanswheel, reported one of those immediate Internet appeal for Response to the incident.. A 'gofundme' appeal for money for four of the young victims of the accident....Personally, I would be highly suspicious of something like that; in this day and time, it might be viewd as "an opportunity" to make some fast sympathetic cash for the unscrupelous...
Sam, the wealthy website keeps 5% and the rest goes to the intended fund.
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/06/24/gofundme-founders-to-reap-a-fortune-in-buyout/
diningcar New info: Train #4 was eastbound toward La Junta after stopping in Trinidad. Vehicle was stuck at public crossing with flashers and bells (no gates) located at MP 629.12 and was shoved to MP 629.8 approx. Tangent track visability for four (4) miles to Mp 625. Engineer says vehicle was stopped on the tracks and accident is being investigated as a suicide.
New info:
Train #4 was eastbound toward La Junta after stopping in Trinidad. Vehicle was stuck at public crossing with flashers and bells (no gates) located at MP 629.12 and was shoved to MP 629.8 approx. Tangent track visability for four (4) miles to Mp 625.
Engineer says vehicle was stopped on the tracks and accident is being investigated as a suicide.
Is the private source who does not want to be identified the one who is investigating the crash as a suicide?
All the news I have seen says that the driver entered the crossing without stopping. The photos of the crossing do not show any flashers.
No RR or highway department is ever going to completely fix stupid. That being said what has happened to the Ohio (?) experiment to place 45 degree reflecting panels on cross buck posts ? That way at least the loco flashing ditch lights would get some driver's attention but not all. IMO that is an inexpensive way to protect crossings that have no lights or gates.
Of course the problem of keeping them clean and crossings at curves might need adjustment to the 45 degrees.
diningcar New info: "...Train #4 was eastbound toward La Junta after stopping in Trinidad. Vehicle was stuck at public crossing with flashers and bells (no gates) located at MP 629.12 and was shoved to MP 629.8 approx. Tangent track visability for four (4) miles to Mp 625. Engineer says vehicle was stopped on the tracks and accident is being investigated as a suicide..."
"...Train #4 was eastbound toward La Junta after stopping in Trinidad. Vehicle was stuck at public crossing with flashers and bells (no gates) located at MP 629.12 and was shoved to MP 629.8 approx. Tangent track visability for four (4) miles to Mp 625.
Engineer says vehicle was stopped on the tracks and accident is being investigated as a suicide..."
It is somewhat rewarding to see the responses to this Thread posed in responsible tones. I had watched sunday to see if other posters might respond to media reports; posting the Thread late sunday night.
The various media accounts seemed to be somewhat confused as to the events that had taken place involving the collision of Amtrak train #4.
The number of occupants in the van, and whether the van had stopped on the crossing [n one media account, 'suicide' was mentioned] ? First reports were four killed, and one was taken to hospital; The report at this time, a little over 24 hours later, is that the driver,and four passengers were killed, and one died later at the hospital.
Watching a National media feed from a local station here; the scene showed what appeared to be a 'rural area', a crossing protected by only crossbucks, and the road was graveled across the tracks. There also appeared to be a slight curve to one side of the crossing with some large vegetation present- no indication of compas direction. If it blocked a view of the crossing for the vehicles approaching either by road or track(?) I have no idea if that information is correct?
Apparently, some of the linked media accounts appear to mention that the crossing was protected by crossbucks with flashing lights(?).
diningcar reported that the Engineer had reported (?) that the van had stopped on the tracks. Was the van experiencing mechanical issues, or was it in fact a deliverate act of the van's driver?
Are there any posters that might be familiar with that specific area, their input might be very helpful?
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