A crazy day, but at least it was short!!!

[Anonymous]

Hello all, ready for another bout of rambling? No, well you're getting it anyway!![}:)]

Not too long ago I caught the south local off the conductors extra board. The engineer was also off, so there was an extra board engineer on as well. That left the brakeman as the only regular crew member working. The brakeman is not a pleasant person to be around and he works very dangerously and could get himself killed at any moment. He also has a bad habit of telling engineers how to run. "You're going too slow!" etc, etc. We had a very short day ahead of us. I was hoping that we could make it the few hours without any excitement, but that would be too much to ask. The first incident, which was actually the fuse, ocurred when I was tying onto a track. I had asked for three step and was making the air tie. I came back out from between the engine and car only to have the brakeman say "release three-step." I was stunned and was about to say something, but the engineer beat me to it. Over the radio he rightly announced that is was not his three-step to give up and what was he trying to do was against the rules. The brakeman replies: "this is how we do it on the locals." After the air test of our six cars we climb aboard and head off down the runner track to the junction with the main line. A signal pops up for us and we begin to move when a roadway worker in charge calls us and asks for our engine number. The engineer and myself look at each other and the engineer brings the train to a stop. The limits of the work authority are only on the main track and we were already south of the limits. As the engineer stops the train, the brakeman yells "what are you doing, we don't have to stop, we're getting on the mainline outside his authority. Indeed we were, but Iwe still wanted to make sure why we were being given permission anyway; the limits ended a half-mile north of us. I saw a few men and a truck and all they were doing was setting up the advance warning board. The brakeman continues to berate the engineer and throws his work order in his direction. The engineer says i can stop and will stop if I am uncertain, then the brakeman tells the engineer he doesn't know spit about running engines. Then the brakeman pulls the emergency lever and crosses his arms and just sits there. I couldn't belive the display I was seeing!!!!! The engineer snapped and got up out of his seat and so did the brakeman both screaming at the top of their lungs at each other nose to nose(kinda like a baseball manager and an ump). In the meantime the roadway worker in charge keeps calling us. In the meantime I'm just sitting there passively hating myself for not putting an end to this. Then my engineer says to me that I better leave the cab because things are going to get ugly and I should not see what's about to happen. I had enough at that point. I stood between the two and said I know that the roadway worker in charge is trying to give us permission outside his limits but he's probably doing so because he has men putting up a board and he feels responsible for their safety. I said we were going to appease the man and get "permission." Then I said the both of you will sit down and we'll get our work done and go home; take it to the parking lot when we are finished. On we went and we finished with no more outbursts or anything. As we pulled our engine onto the pit the brakeman got off and I turned to the engineer and said you know if you hit that man you would have been fired, right? He said he knew, but just lost it and even thought about apologizing to the brakeman, and I said for what?

Anyways, I was wondering if our course of action was appropriate in dealing with the work limit situation.

[Mookie]

You got Mookie's stamp of approval!

[Randy Stahl]

Older locomotives have removable automatic airbrake handles specificly designed to deal with brake men.
Stopping your little local was fine, I would have tossed the brakeman out at that point, let the trainmaster pick him up.
Randy

[Anonymous]

Funny you say that Randy, I was thinking about calling for the trainmaster, but I just didn't do it. I regret not taking charge of the situation sooner, I figured they would have just argued it out and it would have been done,but then it escalated. I'm still wondering why that roadway worker in charge tried to give us permission on trackage he did not have authority over. Yes, we probably could have blown by and not stopped, but...... you just never know if someone is on the track, etc. All the brakeman wanted to do was get a quit because it was his short day. He kept complaining how we should have been done in 1/2 an hour. I'm just glad he only has a few years left.

[Anonymous]

Telling the two of them to sit and zip it is the best you can do on a crew like that.

As far as asking permission, just because you don't have to be courteous to the track guys doesn't make it a bad idea. Remember, those guys can and will help you out if you screw up and get on the ground or run thru a switch. You will NEED them. Also, always remember the most basic rule. In case of doubt follow the safe course.

When I have a bit more time I'll share an anecdote. For now, its back to work.

LC

[rrnut282]

What was the point of that, to make you "pay your dues" since you were both on the extra board?

[dharmon]

That situation is found in many professions, just the particulars change as far as the personalities go. I can't see where stopping and clarifying is a bad thing, when the only time constraint is one placed artificially on the crew by one of the members for personal reasons. But it definitely supports an argument against single man crews.

[edblysard]

First off,
Your the man...so I would have done what you did, told them to wait till they were off property, but while their on the job, they should try and work and play well with others....[:)]

Second, the brakeman would have been made very aware that I didnt give a hoot how they do it on the locals,,,,myself and only myself can release my red zone (your three step) protection, and I would have informed him next time he tried to do it for me, he could explain "how they do it" to the trainmaster.

About the time he pluged the train would have been about the time his grip hit the rocks, with him a few steps behind.
Thats what trainmasters are for, emergency taxis service.

Ed[:D]

[kolechovski]

The experienced/smart engineer was right, the haughty brakeman was an *** and was clearly wrong. You did what you had to, but at least you could have had them reply sooner to the call than leave the guy on the other end wondering why nobody's responding.

[Anonymous]

I was just waiting for the trainmaster to come on and ask what was going on, but he had other things to attend to at the time. For me it was a learning experience and I'm just glad nothing negative came out of it (as in somone losing their life or job).

And just a little extra point, I appreciate the responses I have been receiving on this post as well as others. Some members of the forum may feel like I post these experiences to get kudos from other members and that is not the case. All I'm trying to do is relay a personal experience and 1) see if anyone experienced something similar 2) to see if I acted appropriately in conjunction with basic railroading rules. I'm new and I want to learn as much as possible through others experiences and opinions, so keep 'em coming!!!!! [dinner]

[espeefoamer]

That brakeman should be reported to both the trainmaster and the union.The railroad doesn't need employees who work dangerously, and the union doesn't want its members getting hurt or killed because one of its members does something stupid.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, it is a well known fact that this individual works the way he does. When I was in training I was warned about him. I believe he is somewhat overlooked because he knows the local better than anyone. However, give me or anyone else a few weeks and we wouldn't need him!!!

[CSXrules4eva]

All in all I think the right decision was made in this situation. The engineer made the right decision in stoping the train, since he was unsure. Better Safe than sorry ya know. The acting conductor made the right decision in breaking up the argument before something like a fist fight happened. That most likely would of jepordized all of their jobs, and it would of put the entire train at risk, since the crew wasn't working together to get up and over the road.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

First off,
Your the man...so I would have done what you did, told them to wait till they were off property, but while their on the job, they should try and work and play well with others....[:)]

Second, the brakeman would have been made very aware that I didnt give a hoot how they do it on the locals,,,,myself and only myself can release my red zone (your three step) protection, and I would have informed him next time he tried to do it for me, he could explain "how they do it" to the trainmaster.

About the time he pluged the train would have been about the time his grip hit the rocks, with him a few steps behind.
Thats what trainmasters are for, emergency taxis service.

Ed[:D]

I agree with Ed, particularly on the issue of three step. I won't move unless ALL my trainmen are in the clear and I certainly won't let one release protection for another. We all need to look out for one another. That is what safety is about. There are plenty of canrky "old timers" out there, you need to choose when to stand up to them. You did fine from the sound of things.

LC

[Anonymous]

That's too bad to hear, but that's life, we just deal with those situations the best we can (sounds like that's what you did) then move on, tomorrows another day.

Up here we call it three point protection, it's interesting to see all the different names.

[ValleyX]

You get the three step, you release the three step. If the three step is on the entire crew, then it has to be released by the entire crew. NO EXCEPTIONS, NO SHORTCUTS.

If someone dumps the air on the train, they'd better have a good reason, a very explainable reason.

As far as turning someone in, boy, that's a tough one. I'm probably from the old school where you just don't hardly do that, bad as you might want to. I've seen more than one case where, when it was done, it took unexpected directions when the powers-that-be started looking into the entire situation. Since there weren't blows exchanged, I'd probably let it go but I can appreciate how you feel about it.

Sounds like he might be the most miserable individual you have in the terminal, I hope there aren't any others like him.

[Anonymous]

Valley,

He's probably the worst in the terminal for overall attitude and work habits. That's a good point you brought about speaking to an official. As I sat there while the other two were screaming at each other I kinda drifted off thinking of all the choices I could make and the consequences of them. The best I could think of was to let them blow off steam as long as no one got hit, which came close. I think there was a unspoken mutual understanding not to involve anyone else and let it go, I know the engineer admitted as much. I was just happy nothing worse came of the whole situation. I'm a very laid back person and I often let people get away with more than they should, but I admit that i do like taking control and speaking my opinion. I'm almost happy it all happened because it made me have to stand up and take control, something I have had trouble doing in the past. By no means do I want to be feared, just someone who means what he says.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

You get the three step, you release the three step. If the three step is on the entire crew, then it has to be released by the entire crew. NO EXCEPTIONS, NO SHORTCUTS.

If someone dumps the air on the train, they'd better have a good reason, a very explainable reason.

As far as turning someone in, boy, that's a tough one. I'm probably from the old school where you just don't hardly do that, bad as you might want to. I've seen more than one case where, when it was done, it took unexpected directions when the powers-that-be started looking into the entire situation. Since there weren't blows exchanged, I'd probably let it go but I can appreciate how you feel about it.

Sounds like he might be the most miserable individual you have in the terminal, I hope there aren't any others like him.

I agree, it is difficult to know when someone crosses the line and becomes a liability so great as to warrant turning him in. In the circumstances mentioned by n_stephenson, it is a close call indeed. I had a similar experience when I was working as a brakeman having to break up a confrontation between the Engineer and Conductor over the conductor's smoking. Needless to say the two insisted in having this confrontation as we were running down the main at 40 mph.

One thing many of us have done is to simply refuse a call to work with a person who we know is dangerous or likely to create unreasonable tensions. We had a brand new engineer who had a foul temper and I believe had organic psychological issues. Both the unions and management were aware of this as this individual was known to threaten to kill his conductor and/or brakeman on a fairly regular basis. Many of us drew the line there as we had to go between cars and rely upon this individual to provide protection (three step). Despite these complaints no real action was taken. In the end he solved the problem for us. One night he got into a dispute at a bar with his girlfriend and assaulted her with his car in the parking lot resulting in serious injuries. Needless to say he was charged and convicted and sentenced to years in state prison.

BTW, that was the anecdote I referred to earlier.

LC

[Anonymous]

LC,

Thanks for the previous ancedote. Wow, we don't have anybody threatening the lives of others verbally, but there is one engineer qualified conductor that scares everyone to death. Many people lay off if they get called to work with this person. Recently this "person" was called as an engineer to take a piggy back to Chicago because there were no available engineers. On the return trip the chief road foreman rode back with this person and the word is he called up our road foreman and told him it was the scariest ride of his life. The "person" had no idea what signals to follow, what track they were on half the time, and had to rely on using that little yellow ball on the computer screen to keep speed, and had all their timetables and rule books out in front of them!!! I'm fine with referencing your rule books and timetable to make certain of something, but this person relies on these books the entire trip every time! I'm no engineer, but I believe the lay of the land is a much better indicator as well as trailing tonnage and what you have pulling the train. To say the least the chicago road foreman had a talk with our road foreman, but I don't know if anything will be done. This "person" as a conductor sleeps all the time and when they have to get on the ground they are a lost cause. One time this individual had to pull out of a yard track with 55 cars. The movement was stopped at about 30 cars and then the engineer was told to back up. In the meantime the conductor had thrown the switch underneath the train. Soon enough there were cars on the ground. The reply of the conductor was: "the switch didn't look right, so I threw it." [V] How this person still works for the RR, I don't know. This individual is capable of devastating things due to their own ingnorance or just plain "wacked" state of mind. The terrible thing for those of who are called to work with this individual must make a choice; do I risk working with this individual at great personal danger or the risk of getting time on the street or do I call off sick and risk disciplinary action??? A no win situation.

[adrianspeeder]

"whacked" state of mind. I laughed at that one for some reason. There are morons everywhere, and i try to avoid them when they would impact my safety. Otherwise, they make great entertainment.

Adrianspeeder

[Anonymous]

n_s - That sounds like a pretty scary trip alright. Glad I wasn't there. Even as a trainee I usually seldom found the need to open the books except in complicated terminal areas. I did always keep a cheat sheet of current speeds I typed up and kept with me at all times, making necessary changes from the daily bulletins. I'd change it on the computer when I got done each day. Now, with the laptop, I don't even wait that long.

LC

[mloik]

LC et al.,

Thanks for all your insights. For those of us like me that are not professional railroaders, could you please explain "three step"?

Thanks,
Michael

[Anonymous]

Michael,

Three-step, red zone, three-point are the same thing. Different railroads have different ways of saying the same thing basically. A person on the ground, such as a conductor, brakeman, switchman, carman, utility man, etc will ask for three-step protection when they need to go between, under, or within 25ft of rail equipment with controlled locomotive power attached. The engineer or Remote operator performs a few basic functions to ensure that the requesting employee receives the protoection desired. Engineers must: 1) put the reverser in neutral 2) open the generator field circuit 3) set the indepenent brakes?? (I forgot the last one). Once the engineer does this they report to the requesting employee that they have three-step protection. Most commonly I use three-step to couple air hoses and turn angle cocks, and of course to apply or release hand brakes. Three-step ensures me that the engineer cannot accidentally move, or that the cars will not move while I am in between them. The other rule is that the person who asks for three-step protection also has to be the one that releases it. If there's anything I missed, feel free to fill in my fellow forum members.[:D]

[ericsp]

Last summer I got to "ride" along in the cab of a locomotive while they did some switching. I noticed that when the conductor went between the locomotive and car to connect them the engineer called out "red zone" on the radio, I do not remember if the conductor said anything before this. I assumed this meant that the engineer could not see the conductor. Do you think it meant this or that the conductor had three step protection?

[Anonymous]

ericsp,

If you are a crew that works together every day you tend to take shortcuts because you make your own system. The engineer knows the conductor will ask for three step every time, so he saves a step by letting the conductor know he already has it.

[FThunder11]

I think it would have been pretty funny if the engineer hit the brakeman!!!

[Anonymous]

It wouldn't have been funny when the engineer got fired. You can do a lot of stupid stuff on the railroad and they'll still let you come back, but fighting and stealing get you cannedd for good.

[edblysard]

Eric,
Red Zone, Three step, in between...all mean the same thing when used in this manner.

The Red Zone is that area of the end plane of the car body, formerly know as the dead zone, where, if your body is in there, and the car moves, your dead.

On my railroad, we use the term red zone instead of three step.

When a conductor or switchman calls red zone, he must indentify what job, who he is, and state that he is going in the red zone,(see Nate's exxcellent explaination of what we do in the zone)

To this, the engineer must follow the steps mentioned, and announce that he has "set and centered" the controls.

No one can piggyback themselves into the zone, each individule must call for his or her own protection, and the engineer must acknowledge each one, and can not move the train until all crew members who called for the zone protection, have cleared themselves.

I cant call for, or clear my helper, nor can he do the same for me, period.

When clearing, or releasing protection, each crew member must, again, identify what job, who he is, and tell the engineer he is clear.

There are hand signals for this also, and lantren signals.

Again, because the engineer sees the hand or light signal, and acknowledges it, he can not move the train until he sees each crew member, and gets the clear signal from each one in the same manner they requested protection.

If you use hand signals to ask for protection, you have to used hand signals to clear.

If you use the radio to request protection, you must use radio to clear, hand signal or light signals, you must make yourself visible to the engineer to clear, so he can be certain everyone is clear.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, will scare you like having the car you are lacing the air hoses up on, or adjusting a knuckle on move while your in the zone.

I would bet that when Nate was training, the three step protection was the single most emphasized form of self protection he was taught, for good reason.

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Last summer I got to "ride" along in the cab of a locomotive while they did some switching. I noticed that when the conductor went between the locomotive and car to connect them the engineer called out "red zone" on the radio, I do not remember if the conductor said anything before this. I assumed this meant that the engineer could not see the conductor. Do you think it meant this or that the conductor had three step protection?

[jeaton]

When was the Three Step rule established?. I know that in the days before radios, when the engineer received a handle signal to stop, brakes were set, and the engine wasn't moved until the engineer received a hand signal to move, and was certain that the crew was in the clear.

However, I don't remember that centering the reverser and opening the generator field was part of the process. I understand that those steps add another level of safety to the activity, but were there incidents that that compelled the rule change? Anybody know the story?

Jay

[mloik]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Eric,
Red Zone, Three step, in between...all mean the same thing when used in this manner.

The Red Zone is that area of the end plane of the car body, formerly know as the dead zone, where, if your body is in there, and the car moves, your dead.

On my railroad, we use the term red zone instead of three step.

When a conductor or switchman calls red zone, he must indentify what job, who he is, and state that he is going in the red zone,(see Nate's exxcellent explaination of what we do in the zone)

To this, the engineer must follow the steps mentioned, and announce that he has "set and centered" the controls.

No one can piggyback themselves into the zone, each individule must call for his or her own protection, and the engineer must acknowledge each one, and can not move the train until all crew members who called for the zone protection, have cleared themselves.

I cant call for, or clear my helper, nor can he do the same for me, period.

When clearing, or releasing protection, each crew member must, again, identify what job, who he is, and tell the engineer he is clear.

There are hand signals for this also, and lantren signals.

Again, because the engineer sees the hand or light signal, and acknowledges it, he can not move the train until he sees each crew member, and gets the clear signal from each one in the same manner they requested protection.

If you use hand signals to ask for protection, you have to used hand signals to clear.

If you use the radio to request protection, you must use radio to clear, hand signal or light signals, you must make yourself visible to the engineer to clear, so he can be certain everyone is clear.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, will scare you like having the car you are lacing the air hoses up on, or adjusting a knuckle on move while your in the zone.

I would bet that when Nate was training, the three step protection was the single most emphasized form of self protection he was taught, for good reason.

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Last summer I got to "ride" along in the cab of a locomotive while they did some switching. I noticed that when the conductor went between the locomotive and car to connect them the engineer called out "red zone" on the radio, I do not remember if the conductor said anything before this. I assumed this meant that the engineer could not see the conductor. Do you think it meant this or that the conductor had three step protection?

Ed,

This must result in a lot of back-and-forth on the radio? I don't have a reciever like some railfans (but Christmas is coming...)

Also, I saw the map of Houston in a recent issue of Trains. I'm sure you must have told the Forum many times, but what part do you work? I'd be interested to go back to the map and have a look at your "territory" (don't know if that's the correct term.)

Many thanks in advance,
Michael