I think it would be pretty cool to have a cell phone or tablet app that looks like a train simulator cab. (or is this already being done I dont know). Maybe down the road, lead locos would have a camera or two in them transmitting images to the cell phone. Is it necessary? No. But, might be fun to see things in a new perspective, on the model level. Regardless, if people want to promote cell phones as controllers, the systems should be add ons to existing DCC.
-E-C-Mills I think it would be pretty cool to have a cell phone or tablet app that looks like a train simulator cab. (or is this already being done I dont know). Maybe down the road, lead locos would have a camera or two in them transmitting images to the cell phone. Is it necessary? No. But, might be fun to see things in a new perspective, on the model level. Regardless, if people want to promote cell phones as controllers, the systems should be add ons to existing DCC.
Here you are, jst for you!
Sir Madog ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, I have some questions, I know model trains are popular in Germany. How large is the typical layout? Do most modelers have home layouts or belong to clubs? Or both? How many locos does the "average" modeler own? PM sent, Sheldon!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, I have some questions, I know model trains are popular in Germany. How large is the typical layout? Do most modelers have home layouts or belong to clubs? Or both? How many locos does the "average" modeler own?
PM sent, Sheldon!
Ulrich, could you please post the answer here too? I am curious too about your answers to Sheldon's questions about size of typical layout, Modelers with home vs club and how many loco's does the average modeler own.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Here is my answer to Sheldon:
In Germany, model railroading is a much more socially accepted hobby than in the US. We even have TV shows about trains and model trains! How large the market really is, is quite difficult to determine, however, about 3 million Germans are members of a model railroading club. A rough estimate says there are about 5 million in the hobby - the majority modeling in HO scale, followed by N scale and TT. TT scale was really popular in former communist East Germany and is growing its market share nicely in recent years - due to some innovative and active small manufacturers.
Marklin 3-rail AC still has the highest market share, but not among what we would call the serious model railroader. Marklin is still capitalizing on its glorious past, when they were the market leader in terms of quality. That´s history by now, others are equally good or even better now.
Like in the US, the typical layout is about 4 by 8 feet, make that 1.20 by 2.40m. Space is much rarer in this country, so basement-filling empires are the exception and not the rule. Even a spare room is an exception. Houses and apartments are much smaller than in your country, but still bigger than in the UK, where model railroaders display artistic talents in building tiny layouts.
In gerneral, the cost of the hobby is much higher, although with the recent price increases of Bachmann, BLI, MTH and all others, the difference is getting smaller.
Like in the US, attracting younger folks to the hobby is difficult, although places like Miniatur Wunderland and many others do a wonderful job in supporting the recruitment of the next generation. I failed to pass on this virus - my son is into painting war hammer figures and building dioramas, but no trains -
Basically, the hobby is for old pharts like us
How many locos will an average model railroader have? I can only give an educated guess - like maybe 20 - 40, acquired over a length of time. A lot of folks buy secondhand these days, although Ebay prices are outrageously high.
I failed to give an answer about having a layout at home vs. club layouts. Most members in a model railroading club also have home layouts.
And a few more items.
Germany is much more a RTR market as there is an (over-) abundance of accessories. The drawback of this is that layouts tend to look all the same. Most of the brands will sound familiar to you - Busch, Faller, Preiser, Noch, Herpa, Vollmer, Kibri, Merten, Sommerfeldt - just to name a few.
The above is only my own perception of model railroading in Germany - grown over 52 years.
It still doesn't solve problems like polarity reversals where reversers (DPDT or auto reversers) are needed.
It does make DC control a lot more convient. But it's about as useful as DCS is to DCC. And we know what the end result of that is...DCC works on every brand DCC loco. DCS does not.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Sir Madog Here you are, jst for you!
Ha! Well, there you go! Pretty handy for parking in hidden staging too! Thanks, Eric
Don, what post are you responding to?
I deal with reverse loops in a number of ways, but reverse loops are as much a layout design issue as an electrical issue.
My layout is designed so that left is always west and right is always east. On large layouts this makes operating sessions much easier to understand. Reverse loops are only used for staging, etc.
Sheldon
Wrong! I can consist any brand locomotive with my MTH locomotives. Both running under DCC.
DAVID FORTNEY Wrong! I can consist any brand locomotive with my MTH locomotives. Both running under DCC.
The other side of that coin is that I have been at this for 40 plus years and have yet to find a use for consisting. My Spectrum 2-6-6-2's run just fine with my Proto 2-8-8-2's on DC, just as one example - I'll skip all that drama, with either system.....
David,
Unless MTH has really improved their DCC capability, speed matching is quite hard. I friend bought a 'Little Joe' and other than matching his DCC equiped GP9's to run at the MTH's speed, there was very little we could do the match the MTH engine to the rest of his fleet. Maybe they have addressed this in the newer runs, but the DCS decoders just do not have the DCC function that is claimed. At one time they have talked about HO DCS decoders being available - and I still have not seen any at the LHS....
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
jrbernier David, Unless MTH has really improved their DCC capability, speed matching is quite hard. I friend bought a 'Little Joe' and other than matching his DCC equiped GP9's to run at the MTH's speed, there was very little we could do the match the MTH engine to the rest of his fleet. Maybe they have addressed this in the newer runs, but the DCS decoders just do not have the DCC function that is claimed. At one time they have talked about HO DCS decoders being available - and I still have not seen any at the LHS.... Jim
The newer engines seem to do a better job. Nothing is perfect even between non MTH engines.
As far as the dcs decoder, I have heard no news about it. I'll see Mike Wolf at a show in April and I'll ask him for a update
Sheldon, consisting in DCC is just running multiple locos together. You're thinkign of speed matching, and even as a DCC junky I sometimes have to laugh at the effort people go through to try and perfectly match their locos. It's no different than DC - you just run them together. All this fancy electroniuc speedometer and automatic speed matching script stuff in JMRI - it's not necessary! Just like DC, close is good enough. Different manufacturer, different decoders - doesn;t matter as long as they are close. My main lugging power is a pair of GP7's sandwiching a Trainmaster - an old timer told me this is what the engine crews did, if the consist had the TM leading, they would rearrange at the earliest possible opportunity. My Gepps are Proto 2000, the TM is Atlas. The TM has QSI sound, the Gepps have TCS motor decoders. I just set them all to the same address (we don;t allow the facier consisting on the club layout), coupled them together, and they run for hours pulling a train around the layout at shows. No bucking, no sliding drivers, they just run. If I seperate them and run them,, the Geeps start first but as the speed rises, the TM outruns them. Yet coupled together they share the load and work just fine. I've mad no adjustments to the speed control CVs in any of those locos. I also have an FT A-B pair, Stweart, that are drawbar coupled, but a differnet decoder in each one - one sound, one without. They too run fine together without playing any speed matching games. DCC is complicated because some people chose to make it complicated. You really can just stick some locos on the track, grab a throttle, and run them, same as DC.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy, I understand, I have operated on a lot of DCC layouts - point is, I have not needed either - just one more "step" with DCC that makes it not fit my needs.
I have admitted often, DCC is great for some types of operational needs/goals, but for my purposes it brings nothing to the table that would justify the expense or time - not to mention that all the user interfaces are poor at best........
But I still agree it is here to stay among those who like its features......and those who like onboard sound.......
Bottom line on this topic is that hardcore DC users who never switched to DCC aren;t going to use this direct radio/bluetooth stuff either, and people who've invested in DCC aren;t going to dump it all and switch to this direct radio/bluetooth stuff.
It's a neat niche product. Might appeal to some, but it seems too limited at the moment for really large layouts and/or serious operations.
rrinker Bottom line on this topic is that hardcore DC users who never switched to DCC aren;t going to use this direct radio/bluetooth stuff either, and people who've invested in DCC aren;t going to dump it all and switch to this direct radio/bluetooth stuff. It's a neat niche product. Might appeal to some, but it seems too limited at the moment for really large layouts and/or serious operations. --Randy
rrinker Bottom line on this topic is that hardcore DC users who never switched to DCC aren;t going to use this direct radio/bluetooth stuff either, and people who've invested in DCC aren;t going to dump it all and switch to this direct radio/bluetooth stuff. It's a neat niche product. Might appeal to some, but it seems too limited at the moment for really large layouts and/or serious operations. --Randy I agree completely, Randy. I describe myself as a DCC operator, mostly silent decoders, with a random sampling of sound. I'm currently building a new layout that is being built and wired to DC standards. Why the step back? Simple, so I can run the other 50% of my fleet that is DC. Of course, the new layout, will also be wired to run DCC with the flip of a toggle switch, for when I change my focus and that will be JMRI compatible, which means I will be able to at some point use my Droid Phone to act as a throttle. My allocated train space is in a 352 sq ft trainroom, so i don't have some of the issues others have. At this stage of the build, I could incoprorate any system I want, but I do not see myself having any interest in exploring this proprietory system
I agree completely, Randy. I describe myself as a DCC operator, mostly silent decoders, with a random sampling of sound. I'm currently building a new layout that is being built and wired to DC standards. Why the step back? Simple, so I can run the other 50% of my fleet that is DC.
Of course, the new layout, will also be wired to run DCC with the flip of a toggle switch, for when I change my focus and that will be JMRI compatible, which means I will be able to at some point use my Droid Phone to act as a throttle. My allocated train space is in a 352 sq ft trainroom, so i don't have some of the issues others have. At this stage of the build, I could incoprorate any system I want, but I do not see myself having any interest in exploring this proprietory system
Well, I'am not changing to anything soon, as I'm DCC freindly, but I have the option of flipping a couple of switches, and I'm on DC. I'm still very much on the uphill swing of the DCC learning curve. If I was to hold out for anything, it would be dead rail, as sometime in the future, I'd like a garden size layout, simple to start with.
As far as consisting, I have DCC locos, that run great together, so I left the address at 03, just like on DC. It works for me.
And, to answer the OP's original post? I don't think so at all. To many of us like what works for us, DC, DCC, DCS, etc., and all will always be an option, along with any proprietary system that comes along, and gains favor with how ever many customers will buy into it, until something else comes along. What works and survives will be among the options.
Mike.
EDIT: And yup! you have probably guessed right, I still have a flip phone, and I like it that way. Just have fun with your hobby, as that's what it's for.
My You Tube
rrebell rrinker Bottom line on this topic is that hardcore DC users who never switched to DCC aren;t going to use this direct radio/bluetooth stuff either, and people who've invested in DCC aren;t going to dump it all and switch to this direct radio/bluetooth stuff. It's a neat niche product. Might appeal to some, but it seems too limited at the moment for really large layouts and/or serious operations. --Randy What you are missing is that before to go dead rail, you had to buy a bunch of stuff and soulder it all together and hope you did it right, plus add a battery and then buy a controler. This can be plug an play almost, just add battery, a vast improvment. That being said, this is if the battery part works, but it should.
What you are missing is that before to go dead rail, you had to buy a bunch of stuff and soulder it all together and hope you did it right, plus add a battery and then buy a controler. This can be plug an play almost, just add battery, a vast improvment. That being said, this is if the battery part works, but it should.
At least two of the existing direct radio/dead rail options are ALSO just plug in systems, they plug in to the DCC plug on the loco and have a battery option that just plugs into the receiver. I don't see this Bachmann thing as any different other than it uses Bluetooth standard rather than some other rf link. Until they write their app for other smartphones besides the iphone, it's every bit as limited as those systems which use their own proprietary throttle unit. Hopefully it will also be available on Android soon.
mbinsewi I still have a flip phone, and I like it that way.
I still have a flip phone, and I like it that way.
I was totally fine with my flip phone until last year when my wife and I took on her 21 year old step-son who is a long way from independance and put him on our medical plan - we took a $180/month hit for AHCA required health insurance so we looked for ways to offset it. We were paying $80/mo to Verizon for two flip phones. We found if we got two $50 (one time cost) Windows 8 smart phones (Nokia Lumia) we could cut our monthly cost and save $50/month or more. How? We found T-mobile has a $3/mo per phone minimum plan for 30 min or 30 text. Of couse we go over that but still only pay around $25 or so because we are able to leverage wi-fi at work and home and use Skype or Viber to do much of our texting and calling, thus minimizing the cell minutes. So now it's me who is with an inexpensive smart phone plan - goodbye to my flip phone!
riogrande5761 mbinsewi I still have a flip phone, and I like it that way. I was totally fine with my flip phone until last year when my wife and I took on her 21 year old step-son who is a long way from independance and put him on our medical plan - we took a $180/month hit for AHCA required health insurance so we looked for ways to offset it. We were paying $80/mo to Verizon for two flip phones. We found if we got two $50 (one time cost) Windows 8 smart phones (Nokia Lumia) we could cut our monthly cost and save $50/month or more. How? We found T-mobile has a $3/mo per phone minimum plan for 30 min or 30 text. Of couse we go over that but still only pay around $25 or so because we are able to leverage wi-fi at work and home and use Skype or Viber to do much of our texting and calling, thus minimizing the cell minutes. So now it's me who is with an inexpensive smart phone plan - goodbye to my flip phone!
Has anyone found a spot where they give you the price of the EZAp box and whatever the thing is called that plugs into the decoder? Basically the system without the loco.
Earlier this week one of our club members did a demonstration where he used his smartphone to run the trains. He used a router, a Raspberry Pi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi), and an interface cable to connect everything to the NCE control bus. JMRI was downloaded to the Raspberry Pi, and he used a free raildriver application downloaded from his appropriate app page.
The screen on his smartphone emulated the same screen for the throttle in JMRI. All the locomotive functions were accessible from the throttle. He plugged it in and was able to run trains. Another member downloaded the app and was also able to run trains. This member also went out to the parking lot and still had train control.
He had a cost estimate for what he had built of about $250. Interestingly, the most expensive item was the router.
Based on this demonstration, I can see no benefit to the Bachmann device with all its limitations.
The only concern members had was that the batteries on their smartphones would die too fast. Of course, this will be corrected as soon as the battery technology advances to the level mentioned as "coming soon" by other forum members.
And the new Pi 3 has WiFi, so you wouldn't even need the router. I've done it with my Windows laptop using an app called Connectify. It makes the already there wifi act as an access point for smartphones. Limit I think was 10, so if you want more than 10 phone throttles you'd have to use a real wireless access point (doesn;t need to be a full blown fancy router - also can be one of the older slower protocol ones, which are cheaper, assuming the devices you want to connect support an older wifi standard as well as the latest stuff). There are similar apps for Linux that could be used on the Pi 3.
maxman Has anyone found a spot where they give you the price of the EZAp box and whatever the thing is called that plugs into the decoder? Basically the system without the loco. Earlier this week one of our club members did a demonstration where he used his smartphone to run the trains. He used a router, a Raspberry Pi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi), and an interface cable to connect everything to the NCE control bus. JMRI was downloaded to the Raspberry Pi, and he used a free raildriver application downloaded from his appropriate app page. The screen on his smartphone emulated the same screen for the throttle in JMRI. All the locomotive functions were accessible from the throttle. He plugged it in and was able to run trains. Another member downloaded the app and was also able to run trains. This member also went out to the parking lot and still had train control. He had a cost estimate for what he had built of about $250. Interestingly, the most expensive item was the router. Based on this demonstration, I can see no benefit to the Bachmann device with all its limitations. The only concern members had was that the batteries on their smartphones would die too fast. Of course, this will be corrected as soon as the battery technology advances to the level mentioned as "coming soon" by other forum members.
There is no box or thing that plugs into anything. To try EZ APP you basically need an Apple Smart device and an EZ APP locomotive so your investment is the cost of the locomotive. The simplicity is the advantage!
BuckscoThere is no box or thing that plugs into anything. To try EZ APP you basically need an Apple Smart device and an EZ APP locomotive so your investment is the cost of the locomotive. The simplicity is the advantage!
It was my understanding that there was something that was sold as an extra item so that the EZ app could operate non-Bachmann locos. If that is not the case, and only Bachmann locos can be used, then I see even less benefit.
maxman Bucksco There is no box or thing that plugs into anything. To try EZ APP you basically need an Apple Smart device and an EZ APP locomotive so your investment is the cost of the locomotive. The simplicity is the advantage! It was my understanding that there was something that was sold as an extra item so that the EZ app could operate non-Bachmann locos. If that is not the case, and only Bachmann locos can be used, then I see even less benefit.
Bucksco There is no box or thing that plugs into anything. To try EZ APP you basically need an Apple Smart device and an EZ APP locomotive so your investment is the cost of the locomotive. The simplicity is the advantage!
rrinkerIt's no different than DC - you just run them together. All this fancy electroniuc speedometer and automatic speed matching script stuff in JMRI - it's not necessary! Just like DC, close is good enough.
That is a matter of opinion. If you are trying to DPU, speed matching is extremely important, otherwise you will shove that $50+ piece of rolling stock right into your $30 brass signal. And its a real pain with older locomotives whose manufacturers liked to play the gear ratio of the day game at the factory.
Not going to go into the mechanical problems that will likely arise within the locomotives themselves over time.
rrinker(we don;t allow the facier consisting on the club layout)
The only thing that happens regularly is people forget to de-consist their locomotives and they have to factory reset them (because we delete all consists at the end of a show, locomotives on the track or not).
As for the Blurail, I have no need of it, and cannot fathom a reason to pay $75 to put a decoder that has no sound files, and not even the correct sound files in the Iphone app, into a locomotive so that I can operate that one locomotive by itself. Why not just buy this: http://www.digitrax.com/products/sound-decoders/sdxh166d/ Also costs $75 and you dont need to remember to charge your phone or your train.....
Additionally, has Bachmann considered that this might be slightly irresponsible from a marketing to new model railroaders aspect? I would be irritated bordering on downright incensed if I were to buy a close to $300 starter set, then tried to add another manufacturers locomotive, only that to find out that they wont work out of the box without modification?
rrebell maxman Bucksco There is no box or thing that plugs into anything. To try EZ APP you basically need an Apple Smart device and an EZ APP locomotive so your investment is the cost of the locomotive. The simplicity is the advantage! It was my understanding that there was something that was sold as an extra item so that the EZ app could operate non-Bachmann locos. If that is not the case, and only Bachmann locos can be used, then I see even less benefit. The decoder is not a Bachmann product but one by Bluerail Trains, Bachmann is the volume part of the idea, their being involved will keep the inital cost way down. The first decoder is $75 with an Android app just arround the corner.
The decoder is not a Bachmann product but one by Bluerail Trains, Bachmann is the volume part of the idea, their being involved will keep the inital cost way down. The first decoder is $75 with an Android app just arround the corner.
$75 is alot. Is that an MSRP? If so it will probably get a much lower street price.
Joe Staten Island West
MSRP, but what do you pay for a sound decoder now? Remember that new files can be downloaded anytime they are avalable, the system is just starting.
Smallest bluetooth speaker for onboad sound I have found is about 1" square.