Look I programed for bluetooth. I know the capatibility problems. There are various protocols, versions, and support levels with every bluetooth device. There is a limited communication rate, limited range, and limit to the number of concurrent connections. And yes there are pairing issues. Every once in a while I still have to reboot my **** car because it starts fudging up the bluetooth connection and that's a 2013 model. And that's not the only device that has issues. I have problems with my moto 360 android watch which runs on bluetooth and have to factory reset it sometimes. A cursory investigation suggest a reset on the connection handshake for whatever reason.And again, bluetooth doesn't solve a darn thing that JRMI throttle app doesn't already do and BETTER with open source and no additional cost.Those simple $3 to $4.50 includes no protection circuitry what so ever. And I know what batteries you are talking about. They use them as a basis for no name generic chinese knock off replacement laptop batteries that aren't worth a hoot. No thermal interfaces to shut the **** things off when they start to overheat. No protection when they start to draw too much current, or use too much. And that has to be custom tailored for each engine. And even in HO scale, space is a premium, even in Steam tenders. Weight is the name of the game, and the more you take out to make space for batteries, the worse it gets.If you want to run a couple engines (each with it's own charging station) in a session for < 2 hours at a time, go ahead. Batteries might suit your purpose. But I may look at roundhouse stall #24 and go, "I want to run my mike today" and not worry about if it's charged. It's not like swapping out remote batteries.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Keep alives are like "nice to have" not "required" for anything. On my OWN layouts I've never had a need, none of my locos ever stalls, I guess a combination of burnishing the rail and making sure I have plenty of power feeds means reliable power ont he rails. I've yet to need to power any frogs even. That will change as I switch to Peco Electrofrog because there is such a long 'dead' area, but on my previous Atlas layouts I've not had to power frogs to keep sound from stuttering and never had an issue with non-sound.
It costs more than $3 for a set of li-po batteries and the electronics needed to boost the voltage to 12V or so. Cheap Chinese ones that you might be getting at those prices I will guarantee have NO cell protection circuitry and I wouldn't want them inside my house. I'd be afraid of using them OUTSIDE for a plane or drone or something. CHEAP Li-Po batteries are dangerous, good ones are not. Never cheap out, especially for indoor use - Samsung found that out the hard way.
Sure, they may have only been aroudn for a year, but they did start development on this well before that. Plus the entire communications system is stock off the shelf stuff as far as BTLE chipsets, and they only had to develop half of the system as the phone is the other half. The NWSL and Tam Valley direct radio systems just transmit standard NMRA DCC protocol, so they are completely compatible with any sort of existing or future DCC decoder you want to use, sound or non sound.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Give them a break, they are not even a year old. The Bluetooth they use have no pairing issues and no limitations on connections (the later is from their own work on the system). Lets just deal with the cons. Still needs power: as dose everything. Software non support: this could happen but doubt this would hurt anyone (I still run Train Engineer from 30 years ago, long past any suport and the company folded long ago). Limited # connection: not so that they have found. Pairing: no issues noted. As far as batteries. Take a large amount of space: true but only for the smaller scales and that is changing just as fast as everything else. Limited run times: I don't know about you but I never run the same engine for more than two hours straight. Long charge time: this is true but only an issue with very few and this is changing. They get hot: this is not the same as the RC stuff, batteries are self protected and you act as if Lithium will not be replaced, really surprised it has not already but then with as fast as things are moving, no one wants to start building only to have something far better in a few years show up. Fire risk: so is your cell phone etc. Expencive: ah sorry you can't afford the $3 to $4.50 for the proper set up of three batteries (real cost, without markup or other costs like conecting them (solder). Now don't get me wrong this change is just begining and people who where there for the start of DCC can tell you of the problems then, keep alives are less than 10 years old (though some cruder versions were home made before and these cost alot).
Please list advantages of Blue Rail/Dead rail VERSUSA properly gleemed track with JMRI panel pro and throttle pro, (or a good DC setup if you don't care about sound.)For every advantage you list, I can name 2 or 3 downsides. I'm not trying to poo poo advancement. But it does seem someone is over blowing the benefits given the problems they create.bluerail pro: Gets you in the door cheap with good control. Wireless cab control from cell phoneCons: still requires power source. Software stops being supported with time/OS updates. limited range of bluetooth. Limitation on number of connections. Pairing issues (can be buggy)Batteries Pro: You never have to wire another piece of track again for power.Con: They take up a large amount of space, have limited run time, long charge times, they get hot when discharged quickly, they are a fire risk, and wear out over time. Plus they are expensive.I hardly call these the be all end all end to DC or DCC. They have too many issues. They serve a niche market. It does address certain people's needs. But lets me honest, they are a small limited market.
rrebell The way things are today, we all will be dragged into new tecnoligy kicking and screaming till the end but it will engulf us anyway. Things are moving faster and faster and if we reach an end point, we invent something new so we can go even faster. What most people don't comprehend is that the real computer is man's minds, being connected we are like one giant computer, think about it.
The way things are today, we all will be dragged into new tecnoligy kicking and screaming till the end but it will engulf us anyway. Things are moving faster and faster and if we reach an end point, we invent something new so we can go even faster. What most people don't comprehend is that the real computer is man's minds, being connected we are like one giant computer, think about it.
I think Nostradamus said the same thing...or was it Ghandi?
Well done!
- Douglas
But in this hobby change has always been slow. The very nature of building even a medium sized layout is such that once people invest their time and money in a system, they are not likely to change on a whim.
And I suspect, as my personal experiance has been, that there are:
1-More medium to large layouts out there then some on here want to admit.
2-Few people with such layouts take them down and rebuild them more than once or twice in a lifetime.
3-Be it DCC or DC, if they like their current control setup, change is simply out of the question.
So that leaves new people, those forced to rebuild because of a move, and a few dabblers who just like to play with everything that is new to give any of these other systems a chance.
Remember, DCC, now 25 years old, just being seen as the majority contol system in HO and N, and still not universal by any means.
Yes, sometimes in life we have no choice but to advance with change, other times we can just continue to march to our own drum.
I don't have a smart phone, never have, I can't even type on those little screens. I still have a flip phone and now I have a tablet, which I don't really like, I just need it for my work.
Sheldon
MisterBeasley I would hate to invest in something to control my trains, knowing that forces beyond my control are already working to make part of the system obsolete.
I would hate to invest in something to control my trains, knowing that forces beyond my control are already working to make part of the system obsolete.
rrebell The way things are today, we all will be dragged into new tecnoligy kicking and screaming till the end but it will engulf us anyway. Things are moving faster and faster and if we reach an end point, we invent something new so we can go even faster.
The way things are today, we all will be dragged into new tecnoligy kicking and screaming till the end but it will engulf us anyway. Things are moving faster and faster and if we reach an end point, we invent something new so we can go even faster.
Then perhaps it's time to slo-o-o-w down and enjoy things - e.g. operating your layout on DC or DCC - without the need to continually look at a screen to tell me how fast I'm going.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I am certainly an old geezer when it comes to smart phones - I just don´t like them, even though I have one, only used as a phone. A friend of mine uses either his smart phone or his tablet to operate his trains. While it is OK if you just start your trains and let them run, switching operation proves to be a nuisance. For this particular purpose he hooks up his old Roco "Lokmaus" which he can operate single handed´. Try that with a smart phone!
I have alway wondered what will happen when someone rings you up while switching the local ....
ATLANTIC CENTRALI for one would never "choose" to operate a model train with a touch screen device.
I agree 100% with this.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy car has a built in garage door opener, who needs an app? Especially since I don't have a smart phone.
Yeah, really. Why would I want to pull out my phone and find the app when I could just reach up and hit the button on my mirror?
Again - been there for 6 years at least. Through JMRI, you can use an Android or iOS smartphone as a throttle, and not just on NCE or Digitrax, but on ANY DCC system.
I'm jumping into this thread cause I feeel like it
i think sooner or later all DCC manufacturers will offer some sort of app either Bluetooth or Wi Fi for using your smartphone as a thottle. I don't need it but if NCE offers it I might bite. Would be convenient to cut the cord so to speak but buying a dedicated thottle is not worthwhile to me.
Joe Staten Island West
rrinker How is it easier to do dead rail than any of the other direct radio solutions like Ring, Stanton, or Tam Valley? --Randy
How is it easier to do dead rail than any of the other direct radio solutions like Ring, Stanton, or Tam Valley?
THe real reason for the item is the bluetooth, and there are already dedicated thottles out there. The other thing in it makes it easy to do dead rail, much easier than before where you cobbled it together and hope it works. Other companys have already jumped on their bandwagon offering bluetooth control but controling a DCC decoder. Bluerail trains is soposed to offer that soon also.
That's sort of the point. It's not. I have gadgets like smartphones. I've tried using them to run trains. It's fun, for the first few minutes. Then it's just much less convenient than the actual throttle with a knob.
My car is one of the last few made without a big video screen (since the nanny state declared all cars must have backup cameras so now they all have screens, even without a nav system) and at this point I guess I will keep it forever because I don't want or need that junk in my car. It's distracting and much harder to operate than a simple 2 knobs on the radio. My phone works fine for nav - but if I'm going to a place I've never been before, I bring it up on my computer before I ever leave the house so I have some idea of where I'm going, rather than just hop in the car and hope the GPS finds it.
My garage door opens with a dedicated opener. They didn't build that stuff in pickup triucks in 1993 so I have one fo the openers in my truck, but it's built in to my car so I just programmed the car and keep the extra opener in the house. I do have a automation app for stuff on my phone, and it could automatically open and close my garage door, except the precision of the positioning part of it is such that it could open my garage door when I am more than a block away on the street behind my house, so it's a non-starter. If it were more accurate, it would be great - my house is second in from a stop sign, so it would trigger the door to go up when I'm at the stop sign and I could pull right in. CLosing though - I just don;t trust that stuff. Maybe I'm paranoid, since there's nothign ever happenign in my neighborhood, but when I leave in the morning, I shut the door and wait for it to close before leaving the driveway. Remember with all the safety gear on the door, all someone has to do is step in front of the beam before the door completely closes and it will go back up. Just hid in the shrub around the side and if I would drive away before the door was all the way down it would be easy to intercept the door and I wouldn't even see. No, I did not just tell you how to break into my house because I wait for the door to be all the way down before leaving.
There's plenty of cool things I DO do with an app and a smartphone. Running my trains, or opening my garage door, are not some of them. Should I ever get around to it, maybe I would use my idea of a BT throttle that conencts not directly to the loco but to a smartphone using the WiThrottle app. Phone stays in your pocket after selecting a loco, knob controls the speed and so forth. Cheaper than any system's dedicated throttle, and works with any DCC system supported by JMRI (basically, all common ones on the market). With a real knob and buttons, not a touch screen.
DoughlessI've discovered that to use it strictly as a phone, it stinks.
DoughlessI also have no use to take my train throttle out of the house, nor my garage door opener to my layout room.
DoughlessFrankly, I don't undertsand the appeal, and I suspect many others don't, but things seem to catch on anyway even if they don't make a lot of sense to me.
I wholeheartedly agree!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL yougottawanta I think at some point in the future DCC systems will be replaced with apps or something of that nature. In my industry garage door openers are already be replaced with apps where the doors can be opened and closed from your phone. Well there is no doubt it will become an option that many may use. But I suspect deticated throttles with hard knobs/buttons are not going away any time soon. I for one would never "choose" to operate a model train with a touch screen device. My car has a built in garage door opener, who needs an app? Especially since I don't have a smart phone. Sheldon
yougottawanta I think at some point in the future DCC systems will be replaced with apps or something of that nature. In my industry garage door openers are already be replaced with apps where the doors can be opened and closed from your phone.
I think at some point in the future DCC systems will be replaced with apps or something of that nature. In my industry garage door openers are already be replaced with apps where the doors can be opened and closed from your phone.
Well there is no doubt it will become an option that many may use. But I suspect deticated throttles with hard knobs/buttons are not going away any time soon.
I for one would never "choose" to operate a model train with a touch screen device.
My car has a built in garage door opener, who needs an app? Especially since I don't have a smart phone.
I was hoping someone could explain why it is more convenient to do what seems to be nearly everything with an app and a smart phone over the old tech of a dedicated device. A step by step analysis of how and why it is more convenient would be helpful.
I just got a smart phone because my employer basically required it for communication. I've discovered that to use it strictly as a phone, it stinks.
But as a portable television, its not bad. Of course, I have no use for a portable television that fits in my pocket (barely). I don't watch that much video.
I also have no reason to take my train throttle out of the house, nor my garage door opener to my layout room.
Frankly, I don't undertsand the appeal, and I suspect many others don't, but things seem to catch on anyway even if they don't make a lot of sense to me.
Mike KieranThere's areason why I still have my GPS. I tried using the app on my phone and it was going good until I got a phone call during a crucial time on the highway when I was looking for an off ramp. Imagine getting a phone call while backing a local freight onto a spur and destoying scenery, buildings, cars, and possibly an expensive locomotive.
__________________________________________________________________
Mike Kieran
Port Able Railway
I just do what the majority of the voices in my head vote on.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI can't stand the Digitrax throttle, for a long list of reasons - and I have likely 100 hours using them on friends layouts....... Sheldon
Sheldon,The only Digitrax throttle I ever liked was the UT-2 since it was easy to use. The Tech 6 handheld throttle is a nice throttle and easy to master.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
rrinker You misread. His locos DO run together with DCC> With DC, I doubt they wouldm with such vastly different gear ratios. Stick a decoder in each of those steamers and they will run fine together on a DCC layout. If they work fine together on a DC layout, they will work fine on a DCC layout without a bunch of tweaking. --Randy
You misread. His locos DO run together with DCC> With DC, I doubt they wouldm with such vastly different gear ratios.
Stick a decoder in each of those steamers and they will run fine together on a DCC layout. If they work fine together on a DC layout, they will work fine on a DCC layout without a bunch of tweaking.
No Randy I understood that they would not run together in DC, but yet my various brands of steam locos do - just amazing.
In fact, I will not buy any more new Proto diesels because of the new gear ratios.
But, there are plenty of Blue Box Proto locos still out there for sale, and I have most of what I want.....
I model that time when diesels still ran mostly as sets, and all the steam I have seems to double head fine with anything that would be remotely logical - so I'm good without consisting or speed matching.
Paul, I could find a lot of DCC modelers with large layouts who would agrue the level of infrastructure their layouts need. But again, it is sometimes over done. Factors like sound, lots of multi loco lashups, and how many locos you leave "idling" are also important factors.
And, when I considered DCC the first time 20 plus years ago, decoders were considerably more expensive then they are now.
We have been over the featues and benifits of DCC enough, some people need consisting and/or speed matching, some don't.
Your PA's wou't run with your DL-109's, yet on my DC layout a Proto 2-8-8-2, Spectrum 2-10-2, and a Spectrum 2-8-0 are currently pulling a 50 car freight train, and running fine together - go figure.
And still, the main things that keeps me out of DCC are decoder costs and poor user interface designs.
I can't stand the Digitrax throttle, for a long list of reasons - and I have likely 100 hours using them on friends layouts.......
Sheldon,Let me put it this way; saying that DCC requires all these things you mentioned (breakers, boosters, etc.) is like saying that a DC layout control system like yours needs 100-amp relays. Will it work? Yep; but a tad overkill.
I think you're overestimating the cost of decoders. The $20 is pretty standard; for an 8-pin plug, add $3.00: http://www.digitrax.com/products/mobile-decoders/dh126ps/ For most board-replacement decoders, it's only $27: http://www.digitrax.com/products/mobile-decoders/dh165a0/ I know you're an steam-era guy, so it's not like you need ditchlights (IOW, extra functions). I don't know where you're getting the "double" cost from?
And yes, MU'ing does add more button pushing; however, the advantage is that engines can actually run together when they wouldn't in DC. Just try running a PA-1 with a DL-109 (something the NH did every day in the 1950's) on straight DC, both made by LL-Proto in HO. Top speed of the DL model is around 140 smph; the PA will coast like few other locos I've ever seen. With DCC, I can make these two very different running locos run together perfectly. With DC...not so much.
You don't always have to MU, BTW: with Digitrax, you can run your own pusher independantly of the head end. Twin throttles = twin control.
How did my other operators run? They brought their own throttles. We're all members of the same club, which also uses Digitrax. Also, the Zephyr is a throttle all by itself that was used in a yard situation. Generally, I had two freight yard operators, two local freight operators, and 1 passenger operator, but sometimes it was just two of us. With DCC, it can vary easily. Want more operators? Plug in another throttle. With DC, you have to get out the soldering iron.
If you really want to add more money to my inexpensive DCC system, then by all means do so. Say another three wireless DT400R throttles at $200 ea. My $575 system would have been $1175. I didn't actually spend that, and my layout didn't actually require it. But it could accomodate it.
BRAKIE Sir Madog If my ailing and failing memory is not playing tricks on m again, I think that´s exactly what I said 100+ posts ago. You more then likely did and I forgot. My Short term memory is poor but,my long term seems to be holding up quite well. I can even remember the day and extact time I got married.
Sir Madog If my ailing and failing memory is not playing tricks on m again, I think that´s exactly what I said 100+ posts ago.
You more then likely did and I forgot. My Short term memory is poor but,my long term seems to be holding up quite well. I can even remember the day and extact time I got married.