A single-supplier proprietary system replacing an open-source system already in widespread use? You're kidding, right.
As for using something that bears no resemblance whatever to a traditional controller to operate a single train, this is so far from my druthers that it can't be seen in the Hubble Space Telescope.
I may be a living fossil, but anything that doesn't control the entire railroad fails to fascinate me. Analog DC and my version of Ed Ravenscroft's MZL system work for me, and I have neither need nor plans to change.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - inexpensively)
I think it is great to see more control systems come online. Will they take over DCC, not at this time, but new technology that advances our choices is always good.
Like everything and every business it comes to an end. DCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now, maybe not in my life time But it will happen.
I would like to see dead rail come to the forefront. When batteries are produced that are small enough and powerful enough then dead rail will become a competitor for our money. How much and how hard would it be to upgrade our fleets of locomotives to dead rail? That last question could spell doom for dead rail unless that is addressed.
DAVID FORTNEYDCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now
Maybe it is my lack of imagination, but I have no clue what that could possibly be! I repeat myself - any new system that has come up recently has not offered any additional value.
It is amazing how defensive people get when new technology is introduced. I honestly don't think it is Bachmann's intention to threaten the existence of DCC - they are too heavily invested in that system. Personally I think the innovation here is the interface. To put it in computer terms it's like going from DOS to Windows. If a system comes along that replaces the drudgery of CV manipulation with an intuitive interface that is simple then I'm all for it. The beauty of this technology lies in the simplicity. If I have an IOS smart device and I want to try it all I need to do is purchas a locomotive - no peripherals like you need with DCC.I don't believe you need anything other than full power applied to the track to use it. It is also software based which means when new features are introduced you will be able to update the app - this is very forward thinking.
I for one do not fear advancments in technology - I embrace them. I have DCC but that doesn't prohibit me from trying Bluetooth.
BuckscoI for one do not fear advancments in technology - I embrace them. I have DCC but that doesn't prohibit me from trying Bluetooth.
And when Apple updates your phone (which they do), and the Bachmann App is not compatible with the new update (which could happen, it happens to other apps, Bachmann is not immune), you have a paperweight until Bachmann updates their app.
A replacement for DCC will have to offer some good benefit that DCC does not have. All of these new systems fail to do that. DCC offers benefits that DC does not have. And it is an open standard that all can use. And yet it's not the best system for everybody. For various reasons DC is still the best for many folks and likely always will be.
So no.
Paul
I've never had an app on my iphone become unuseable......
Bucksco I've never had an app on my iphone become unuseable......
That is because generally speaking, most app producers keep up with Apple updates. Currently the Amtrak app no longer works my my iphone (thats my fault) or my girlfriends andriod, just as an example, I have others.
Sir Madog DAVID FORTNEY DCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now Maybe it is my lack of imagination, but I have no clue what that could possibly be! I repeat myself - any new system that has come up recently has not offered any additional value.
DAVID FORTNEY DCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now
Time marches on and so does technology. I'm going to give the Bachmann blue tooth a try.
No
Tony
EK Sub in HO Scale
Hi, Jack
Bucksco If a system comes along that replaces the drudgery of CV manipulation with an intuitive interface that is simple then I'm all for it.
Isn't that what JMRI Decoder Pro is?
Bucksco It is also software based which means when new features are introduced you will be able to update the app
Or the decoder, which ESU Offers with their LokProgrammer.
Not trying to be contradictory but these technologies are here.
Well, it will be 5 weeks and the new decoders will be able to ship. Bluerail Trains is asking what type of harness types to put out to fit the needs. Since the nubs are there for dead rail, that is what I will ask for, almost plug-n-play dead rail is coming fast.
ProductionmanagerI just watched the online video review of the Bachman RS-3 that is equipped with what they refer to as Easy Ap to run their trains that are so equipped.
did it mention the price?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
DAVID FORTNEY I think it is great to see more control systems come online. Will they take over DCC, not at this time, but new technology that advances our choices is always good. Like everything and every business it comes to an end. DCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now, maybe not in my life time But it will happen. I would like to see dead rail come to the forefront. When batteries are produced that are small enough and powerful enough then dead rail will become a competitor for our money. How much and how hard would it be to upgrade our fleets of locomotives to dead rail? That last question could spell doom for dead rail unless that is addressed.
David, in 20 years DCC has only won over 1/2 to 2/3 of its target customer base.
No matter what new technolgy comes along, most of those who are heavily invested in DCC and who are happy with its features will not switch.
Some people will try every new thing that comes along, but model railroaders with large fleets of DCC locos and basement sized layouts wired for DCC are not likely switching - ever.
Just like there are a lot of DC hold outs like me who have not switched to DCC - and have no plans to.
Remember, if we count all scales and gauges, it is likely that only one out of three people with a model train uses DCC - again, after a 20 year push to "convert" them.
Not everyone is interested in "change", many people are happy with what already works for their needs.
I can tell you for sure, I will NEVER use a touch screen device to control my trains. And that I will never be interested in onboard sound in HO. I know all about DCC, Direct Radio, Dead Rail, etc, etc - I am very tech savy - and I still use DC - very advanced radio controlled, fully signaled, semi automated DC - but DC none the less.
I'm sure that when some more advanced system does reach a "mainstream" level, it may become the "point of entry" for new modelers, but just like the switch from DC to DCC, there will be a limit to the percentage of modelers willing to scrap big investments in control equipment and replace it with something new. The expense of a large DCC system makes this factor even more likely than it was with the DC to DCC conversions.
Sheldon
in regard to JMRI they do the same thing but with Bluetooth you are communicating directly with the locomotive - not a control box, PC then the locomotive. Sure they do the same things but the Bluetooth chip makes it more seamless and actually faster. i think it makes things simpler for beginners which is important for growth of the hobby. DCC is a great system and I don't believe any of its users have to worry about it going away Any time soon. Bluetooth and DCC locos can co-exist on the same layout.
It is a nice way to run a locomotive with my Smart device. I like that! I don't think people will go out and get a smart phone just to run their trains but those of us who have an iPhone will be interested. I have a couple of these locos and I run them on my DCC layout. All I had to do to try it was buy the locos - nothing else! They run in DC mode as well.
BuckscoPersonally I think the innovation here is the interface. To put it in computer terms it's like going from DOS to Windows. If a system comes along that replaces the drudgery of CV manipulation with an intuitive interface that is simple then I'm all for it.
Jack,
I've only seen a screenshot of the interface, haven't used it. But it looked very similar to the WiThrottle/JMRI interface. Am I missing something here? Because that's essentially what you get with those...
BuckscoIt is a nice way to run a locomotive with my Smart device. I like that! I don't think people will go out and get a smart phone just to run their trains but those of us who have an iPhone will be interested.
I agree, but I don't even use smart phones EXCEPT as throttles for JMRI. Hand me down from my generous wife, although you can purchase an old iPhone and do the same thing if you haven't a generous family member. All you need is a Wifi connection to the home network where the layout is. Wifi tends to have a better signal than Bluetooth, too.
I will grant that the fact the Bachmann app works with DCC is an advantage, which reinforces my earlier point that compatibility with DCC is important or such a proprietary system would otherwise be a dead end.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
gregc Productionmanager I just watched the online video review of the Bachman RS-3 that is equipped with what they refer to as Easy Ap to run their trains that are so equipped. did it mention the price?
Productionmanager I just watched the online video review of the Bachman RS-3 that is equipped with what they refer to as Easy Ap to run their trains that are so equipped.
rrebellthe chip (first one being 17mmx17mm) is becoming available soon
From Bluerail's website, the actual dimensions are 58mm X 28mm X 7mm
gregcdid it mention the price?
rrebell$75
The engine lists for $239. The decoder alone will be $75. (About the price of 3-4 DCC fleet decoders with similar features.) Of course, street prices may be less.
rrebellLike I said, my main intrest is dead rail without having to do it all by myself.
You'd still be doing quite a bit yourself to get dead rail with some future Bluerail decoder, wouldn't you?
What battery will you source?
How will you mount the battery in the unit along with the Bluerail decoder?
How will you recharge the battery? By disassembling the loco?
How will you control a second loco? Buy another cellphone?
More-complete dead rail systems already exist -- of course, they are expensive and proprietary to date.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
You can get 3-4 decoders with sound for $75, where? Hook battery to dead rail bumps on decoder, not much work, remember the new batteries last up to 40x current ones and recharge faster etc.. First will be a Proto 2000 0-8-0, lots of room in the tender and DCC or bluetrain ready. Could just leave shell on tender loose or? You can control more than one at a time with one cell but already have three compatable phones, remember you don't need service to download app, just a hot spot. There are no dead rail complete systems out there that you don't have to build. Last, used phones can be had for less than $20.
ATLANTIC CENTRALDavid, in 20 years DCC has only won over 1/2 to 2/3 of its target customer base.
Sheldon, I think this figure is much bigger when you include the rest of the world. Don´t forget, the German market alone is way bigger than the US market.
Oh, btw, my own layout is DC only, with a rather intelligent Gaugemaster controller, which incorporates momentum simulation and breaking. My layout is sound equipped, but not onboard, but "under the table".
David, I am not afraid of new technologies, but I am not a fan of new technologies which do not offer any improvement over existing and well-proven stuff. I think Bachmann is on the wrong track introducing yet another system which will stay proprietary for quite a long time, if not forever. The reason for Bachmann is not to offer an added value or cost benefit to the customer, but purely a marketing one.
Sir Madog ATLANTIC CENTRAL David, in 20 years DCC has only won over 1/2 to 2/3 of its target customer base. Sheldon, I think this figure is much bigger when you include the rest of the world. Don´t forget, the German market alone is way bigger than the US market. Oh, btw, my own layout is DC only, with a rather intelligent Gaugemaster controller, which incorporates momentum simulation and breaking. My layout is sound equipped, but not onboard, but "under the table". David, I am not afraid of new technologies, but I am not a fan of new technologies which do not offer any improvement over existing and well-proven stuff. I think Bachmann is on the wrong track introducing yet another system which will stay proprietary for quite a long time, if not forever. The reason for Bachmann is not to offer an added value or cost benefit to the customer, but purely a marketing one.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL David, in 20 years DCC has only won over 1/2 to 2/3 of its target customer base.
Ulrich, admittedly I have no knowledge or information on the model train markets in the rest of the world.
But all available information about the US market suggests that in HO and N scales (and likely On30), DCC useage is about 60% and growing slowly as new modelers enter the hobby. It also seems clear that conversion to DCC by long time modelers has slowed to near zero - if they are going to convert - they have already.
In the larger scales, O, S, large scale - original AC, Lionel and MTH systems, various direct radio systems, DC and DCC all share similar percentages of popularlity. With this group of modelers DCC has no particular advantage and is not growing at all.
In fact, in large scale the various direct radio/dead rail systems lead the way - only one of which is DCC based........
So, it is easy to "ignore" the larger scales as "toys" and say that "serious" modelers mostly use DCC - but, fact remains, at least in the US, it is likely accurate to say only one out 3 people with model trains in the US uses DCC for control.
Another important point - again at least here in the US - DCC is most popular amoung modelers who are more "social", who belong to clubs, or regularly visit each others layouts, transport equipment to run other than at home, belong to modular groups, etc.
"Lone Wolf" types may use DCC, but are also very likely to be the ones experimenting with the new systems - they have no "interchangeablity" issues if they are not involved as much with others. Or, they have simply stayed with DC because it still meets their needs and they see no point in the work or expense of DCC for large or medium sized layouts........
OK, I have some questions, I know model trains are popular in Germany. How large is the typical layout? Do most modelers have home layouts or belong to clubs? Or both? How many locos does the "average" modeler own?
I ask because it speaks directly to the afordablity od DCC. DCC is very afordable for a small loco fleet and a small layout, but DCC cost and complexity grows exponentially as layout size and fleet size increase - boosters, power zones, additional throttles, decoders, etc......
I know these questions are often hotly debated on this forum as it relates to the US and Canada, but here in my area of the US, 800 sq foot home layouts with 100 locos are pretty common place - getting back to my point that DCC or DC, modelers who are happy with what they have, and who have large layouts, are not changing to any new system that comes along.
ATLANTIC CENTRALOK, I have some questions, I know model trains are popular in Germany. How large is the typical layout? Do most modelers have home layouts or belong to clubs? Or both? How many locos does the "average" modeler own?
PM sent, Sheldon!
DAVID FORTNEY Sir Madog DAVID FORTNEY DCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now Maybe it is my lack of imagination, but I have no clue what that could possibly be! I repeat myself - any new system that has come up recently has not offered any additional value. Technolgy advances all the time and to be afraid of new advances in what we do is just silly. In my life time the changes in my job was just astounding. Your cell phone today has more computer power then when the astronauts went to the moon in 1969. Time marches on and so does technology. I'm going to give the Bachmann blue tooth a try.
Technolgy advances all the time and to be afraid of new advances in what we do is just silly. In my life time the changes in my job was just astounding. Your cell phone today has more computer power then when the astronauts went to the moon in 1969.
David, to assume that people who do not jump on every new thing are "afraid of technology" is just silly.....
I was programing the first Progamable Logic Controllers in the 80's long before most of you owned a personal computer. My home has "whole house automation", I drive cars with in dash navigation and bluetooth phones - but my trains still run on DC, and I don't own or want a smart phone because I understand the technology well enough to know I don't need or want it.
But my DC system is so complex it includes:
Radio throttles with over 100' range
detection and signaling
intergrated turnout controls with local and dispatcher control
one button route control of turnouts
working interlocking signals
CTC
Automatic Train Control - (collision avoidance system)
constant brightness lighting
pulse width modulated speed control with momentum
How many of those features does your DCC or bluetooth system have? It all depends on what features you want.
But I admit, my trains lack the all important feature of the conductor making station announcements...........
One point that I do not think has been made yet -
Personally, I have NO INTEREST in having different control systems on the same layout.
The idea of using DCS to control my MTH locos, then switching to a DCC system for other locos, then picking up a smart phone to control a different group of locos is simply beyond comprehension for me.
I am running a model railroad "system", designed as an integrated system of control to provide the desired features for the operation of ALL trains on the layout and to provide both display running and prototype operating sessions for one operator or a crew of 8-10 operators and a dispatcher.
DCC and advanced DC systems are good at this - having two or three or more systems on the same layout would be impossible..........no matter the features of any specific system.
But for those of you not into prototype operating sessions, I guess it maters not.......
To answer a few of the questions, in Gemany and many other countries over there, space for trains for many are at a premium, especially in the cities (try designing kitchens for houses with sloped ceilings, and this is in new construction). People forget how many DCC engines are sold and have the decoder taken out and replaced (meaning a new decoder sale or just changed to something else). Also what do you count a duel decoder as. I don't have DCC but have a number od DCC engines or DCC ready, that will be converted.
rrebell To answer a few of the questions, in Gemany and many other countries over there, space for trains for many are at a premium, especially in the cities (try designing kitchens for houses with sloped ceilings, and this is in new construction). People forget how many DCC engines are sold and have the decoder taken out and replaced (meaning a new decoder sale or just changed to something else). Also what do you count a duel decoder as. I don't have DCC but have a number od DCC engines or DCC ready, that will be converted.
Very true, the sale of DCC equiped locos says nothing about DCC use - I have 130 locos, easily 40 of them came with DCC decoders - but they have never seen a DCC layout, and their decoders are long gone now.
Bachmann basic decoders sell rather well on ebay...........
I find technology as a stand alone topic rather boring. I don't keep up with the latest technology for that very reason. Ulrich made a great point, if it doesn't add value to how the trains are controlled, why would it replace DCC? Unless people just like keeping up with technology for that sake alone, which is fine, but that's not my interest.
If I see where changing systems of control adds value to the way the trains can be run, I'll look into tearing down all of the work I put into my current control system to then build a new one to get that added value. So far, I don't see it.
- Douglas
rrebell You can get 3-4 decoders with sound for $75, where? Hook battery to dead rail bumps on decoder, not much work, remember the new batteries last up to 40x current ones and recharge faster etc.. First will be a Proto 2000 0-8-0, lots of room in the tender and DCC or bluetrain ready. Could just leave shell on tender loose or? You can control more than one at a time with one cell but already have three compatable phones, remember you don't need service to download app, just a hot spot. There are no dead rail complete systems out there that you don't have to build. Last, used phones can be had for less than $20.
What do you mean, "have to build them"? This Bluerail thing is no different in that regard that one of thoe others out there link Ring's. You need to supply power to the rails, install the receiver in a loco, and linmk it to the controller (or phone). If you're happy with a few Bachmann locos I guess you get out of having to install the receiver. Thing is, on most any modern (made in the past 10-15 years at least) loco, this is almost trivially easy. People like to make things seem harder than it really is. Yes, there are a few exceptions that require a bit of engineering and thought to wire up, but for the majority of locos this simply is not true. It is, literally, a plug in installation, thanks to the multitude of DCC decoders from various manufacturers available in all sorts of sizes to fit all sorts of locos. A single manufacturer can't possibly make every variant - not one of the DCC manufacturers has the ideal decoder for EVERY brand of loco, but it's a non issue because any brand decoder works with any brand system. Until and unless these various direct radio systems form a standard, or at least there is a defacto sort of standard by one manufacturer allowing others to build compatible equipment, this same level of support just can't happen.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Uh, Bluerail Trains and Bachmann are two separate companys, they just work together. I have played with DCC and have freinds that have liked it (but also spent hours trying to fix others problems on them. Basicly anything that requires track power has problems. Almost never have problems with wireless control (had batteries die after two years on my Train Engineer stuff but they are AA).
Doughless I find technology as a stand alone topic rather boring. I don't keep up with the latest technology for that very reason. Ulrich made a great point, if it doesn't add value to how the trains are controlled, why would it replace DCC? Unless people just like keeping up with technology for that sake alone, which is fine, but that's not my interest. If I see where changing systems of control adds value to the way the trains can be run, I'll look into tearing down all of the work I put into my current control system to then build a new one to get that added value. So far, I don't see it.