Deggesty What were the two routings Pullman used for overnight sleepers between Knoxville and Nashville? Roads and junction points, please.
What were the two routings Pullman used for overnight sleepers between Knoxville and Nashville? Roads and junction points, please.
Southern - Harriman - Tennesee Central
Southern - Chattanooga - NC&StL
rcdrye Deggesty What were the two routings Pullman used for overnight sleepers between Knoxville and Nashville? Roads and junction points, please. Southern - Harriman - Tennesee Central Southern - Chattanooga - NC&StL
I could not help but respond immediately to your previous question, even though I have no publications with classical information here--so I tried to think of a somewhat obscure matter which, as it was, might have been mentioned sometime back.
Johnny
I had to go dig a bit because I assumed initially that there was an L&N routing.
Of the five railroads that operated Chicago-style gallery commuter cars in the 1950s and 1960s, only these two never operated them behind steam in regular service.
Rob:
Are you looking for the CBQ and RI? Are the five roads the: CBQ, RI, MILW, CNW, and IC?
Ed Burns
RI is one of the two, barely meeting our 50 year mark. IC didn't get its Highliners until 1970. Still need the second non-steam user and the fifth operator.
Of the ones Ed named, CB&Q, RI and MILW cars came from Budd, C&NW's were a mix of StLCC and Pullman. The other operator's car's were similar to C&NW's.
The fifth road in question is SP, whose own bi-levels were steam-heated and never operated as push-pulls. They were regularly operated in the same trains as Harriman coaches.
I'm not sure when CP got its gallery bi-levels for Montreal suburban service.
CP's came in around 1970. Still looking for the other (Ed Burns got CRI&P) non-steam operator.
Simpe question to answer, and there are actually two others. The IC has MU-Electric Chicago gallery-style cars, and certainly never used any behind steam. I think the South Shore now has a few also, even though most of its fleet is modern single-level.
Pardon, did not see the 1950-1960's limitation. I do not think the Milwaukee ever used bilevels behind steam, but they did use bilevels, and I assume they did before the 50's were over.
So Ed and Dave have the correct answers (Ed got his in first). CB&Q, C&NW and SP all used steam in the 1950s, including trains with the new bilevels. All of them were originally steam heated, with axle generators (SP, C&NW) or lighting power from either the locomitive (on short CB&Q trains) or a power car (on long CB&Q trains). RI and MILW got their cars in the early 1960s, set up for HEP from the beginning. C&NW converted its StLCC cars to HEP when the Pullman bilevels arrived in 1958. SP's remained steam heated until retired by CalTrain in the 1980s.
I read that the last three E9A's that the MILW purchased came from EMD with HEP.
MILW 36AC-38AC (six E9A's) were equipped with HEP when built. MILW 32C or 33C was later HEP-equipped with the HEP generator drawing off of the #2 engine.
CSSHEGEWISCH MILW 36AC-38AC (six E9A's) were equipped with HEP when built. MILW 32C or 33C was later HEP-equipped with the HEP generator drawing off of the #2 engine.
C&NW's Chicago fleet included E8s and ex-freight F7s with Cummins HEP sets. Before HEP C&NW's GP7s and a couple H-16-66 "Baby Trainmasters" had low-voltage generators for lighting. (I earlier said that C&NW's StLCC cars had axle generators. They didn't.)
SP had 16 FM Trainmasters and 11 dual-ended GP9s. FP7s, SD7s and SD9's with boilers were borrowed for Commute service as needed. In the 1970s the 10 SDP45's were transferred from Amtrak lease, and 3 GP40P-2s were purchased to replace the Trainmasters.
Rock Island did some interesting HEP conversions when it purchased its first batch of bi-levels. The first HEP locomotives were E6A 630, F7A's 675-677 and AB6's 750-751. I think that E8A 661 and E9A's 662-665 (all ex-UP) were added when the second order of bi-levels was purchased.
The ex-UP units weren't all ready when the P-S bilevels were delivered, so RI borrowed some C&NW units to cover. RI also leased C&NW bilevels on a couple of occasions, but used RI power. I don't recall RI ever mixing the Budd and P-S bilevels, though there's no reason it shouldn't have worked.
You and Ed should decide who posts the next question.
Rob and All:
I'll ask the question. These railroads had dome sleeping cars purchased for what train? In the off season, some of them were repainted for another railroad and returned in their original colors. Name the original railroads, which train they were purchased for, which railroad they went to for the winter, and what colors were they repainted.
NP Eddie Rob and All: I'll ask the question. These railroads had dome sleeping cars purchased for what train? In the off season, some of them were repainted for another railroad and returned in their original colors. Name the original railroads, which train they were purchased for, which railroad they went to for the winter, and what colors were they repainted. Ed Burns
My first ride in a dome was on the Panama, from Brookhaven to Canton--and back down on the City of New Orleans. I had the opportunity to explain, to another passenger, the significance of the lights by the railroad that changed from green to red as we came upon them.
Johnny:
WOW!! You are good and know your passenger trains.
Next question to you.
Ed, living across the street from the main line of the Mainline of Mid America for three years, I was quite familiar with the cars--at one time, an E-L sleeper was regularly in the consist of the Pannyma (as IC men in Mississippi called it), and I had to look sharply to see that it was not an IC car. I regret that I was unable to see the northbound consist the second day after the northbound was unable to run above McComb because a small creek had flooded, and I am sure that Pullman cobbled together a consist to run south the following day.
A further note, on the Seminole--even the CG and ACL cars and the CG engines that ran regularly on this train were painted IC colors. I did sleep in a UP sleeper (American Sailor), in a upper berth with windows from North Cairo to Birmingham in June of '66, and I do not think it had been repainted. Apparently, the IC's 6-6-4's were being used for military transport (later that month, I rode from Meridian to Shreveport (coach, of course), and a carload of soldiers boarded in Jackson, apparently having arrived on the Panama).
Where on the Southern could you be traveling either east or south (or, west or north), depending upon what train you were riding, on a particular stretch of track and geographically be going in the same direction? I know of two locations.
Both locations in Tennessee...
Chattanooga - Oooltewah on routes of "Birmingham Special" and "Royal Palm
Knoxville - Morristown on routes of "Brimingham Special" and "Carolina Special"
rcdrye Both locations in Tennessee... Chattanooga - Oooltewah on routes of "Birmingham Special" and "Royal Palm Knoxville - Morristown on routes of "Brimingham Special" and "Carolina Special"
On the one you missed, the situation was complicated with the trains of a foreign line which had the through trains either backing in or backing out of the city station.
How were these differences handled handled so that there would be no confusion?
The other section must have been the short chunk betwen Austell and Atlanta. The track layout there has changed enough to be difficult to trace today, but I seem to remember that trains in one direction were CNO&TP and in the other were Southern Ry. I'm going to look around for an old Atlanta map to see if I can ID the foreign line, though I'm strongly suspecting the Atlanta and West Point, with Crescent route trains.
You have located the other section--Austell and Atlanta, which was also used for a short distance by the SAL--whose through trains to/from Birmingham headed into and backed out of Atlanta. The A&WP had no trains that ran through, on the same road, through Atlanta.
The Carolina Special changed numbers, from 27 to 28, at Harriman Junction--and ran east to Charleston and west from Charleston to the junction (and north and south north of the junction). The Knoxville and Memphis Divisions, which became the Tennessee Division, were east/west from Bristol to Chattanooga to Memphis.
The Chattanooga Terminal and Atlanta Terminal had there own numbers for trains that ran seemingly in the wront TT direction.
I do not know just where the line through the Missionary Ridge Tunnel left the CNO&TP line (which did not go south of Chattanooga; that was the Atlanta Division, originally part of the ET&Ga). After the tunnel line was bypassed with a line around the north end of the Ridge, Cincinnati-Florida trains were operated in both directions between Citico Jct. and the station, seemingly with odd-numbered trains going both south and north on that section (and even-numbered trains doing the same.
To prevent confusion, the Chattnooga Terminal Division (I knew a brother of its superintendent, but never met the superintendent) and the Atlanta Terminal Division each had its own ETT, with proper numbers according to the direction of travel assigned to each train--and showed the the numbers for the CNO&TP, Knoxville, Memphis, Atlanta, and Charlotte Division trains, as well as the SAL's numbers.
Oh, yes; the AGS also figured into the trains, but there was no possible confusion between it and the Memphis Division as to the trains between Chattanooga and Wauhatchie, where the Memphis Division trains joined/left the NC&SL.
If I remember correctly, didn't the IC have a financial interest in the Central of Georgia at one time. That must have been the reason the some CGA passenger diesels were painted IC colors.
The CofG ran IC's through trains to Florida as part of a pool arrangement. CofG's E8s 811 and 812 ran (with IC E units) between Albany Ga and Chicago, most often on the "Seminole". The Illinois Central diamond on the front of the units had "Central of Georgia" in IC-style letters. CofG was already part of the Southern system before the pool ended in 1969 or 1970.
The South Wind was mentioned earlier as carrying leased NP domes, making it one of three trains that carried dome sleepers in Indiana. What were the other two?
Ed, I have a memory that the IC did have some financial interest in the CG. However, at times the CG power ran all the way from Chicago to at least Columbus. I have a memory of seeing a CG engine in IC colors in Birmingham as well as in Columbus. On one occasion, when I rode the Seminole from Tifton to Birmingham, the ACL had a red engine on the train as far as Albany--it was one that was still lettered for the Katy.
Were the two trains in question run by the same railroad (as in, say, Columbian and Cincinnatean)?
I don't know if the brief operation of the Chessie dome-obs on the Pere Marquette is supposed to count here - sleeper accommodations?
You are very close. Both trains were on the same railroad, and the cars were built for the Chessie...
Both the Capitol and the Shenandoah carried domes.
When the Cincinnatian carried a dome into Detroit, clearances in the Fort Street Station had not been studied in detail, and the train was run under a shed that cleared the top of ordinary cars--but not dome cars. As I recall, that was the only time that a dome was operated into Detroit.
Rob and Johnny:
I remember riding a B&O train from Pittsburg to Chicago that had a strata dome car. That car had two spotlights pointing out in opposite directions. Being 12 or 13, I had a lot of energy and probably drove my mother crazy. The view of Pittsburgh at night was colorful, what with the steel mills. The train might have been the Capitol Limited, but we went coach--so probably coaches were introduced about 1958 or so to that train.
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