BackshopThe average age of Amtrak’s sleeping car passengers is 61. Assuming a normal distribution, many of them will be dead in the not too distance future.
I am long passed (+22) that age and depending where I need to be, I mostly drive or fly. No way to get to Washington Island WI by train or plane. Cincinnati, Central Kentucky (Corbin) are drive. However, two years ago, our granddaughter graduated from USC and we flew there, and returned via Amtrak's Southwest Chief. Time was not the issue, nor was cost. the choice was made for the experience. Wife tolerated the need to get into upper bed account I had to use the lower for power for my CPAP machine. Otherwise, we both enjoyed the almost on time (about a half hour late into Naperville) trip home. Have not had a bad experience on Southwest Airlines.
BackshopI'm just slightly younger than the Amtrak norm (I'll be 60 in 2 weeks) and I much prefer to fly. In fact, I'll be going to Amsterdam in 8 days and my wife and I are first on the upgrade list for Delta One Suites. We're flying back from Rome two weeks later and purchased the "old" Delta One seats. Maybe I'll write a trip report... I'd like to take a "land cruise" train but have no desire to ride a regular LD train. Life's too short to be stuck on a train that long.
Yes, the Rome trip on Amtrak is particularly long, and the view can be impaired dramatically by blown spray at this season of the year. I'm not sure if the FRA-mandated 79mph limit applies when PTC is not present (as I suspect it won't be in international waters) but that's not even Zeppelin-range speed, so the effects of Anderson's 'cuisine choices' might become almost mind-numbingly paramount by the time you got where you were going. I'm not surprised you prefer to fly.
[quote user="JPS1"]
[quote user="Overmod"I can't imagine most of the people who currently choose to ride Amtrak embracing this sort of accommodation. At all. [/quote]
[/quote]I'm just slightly younger than the Amtrak norm (I'll be 60 in 2 weeks) and I much prefer to fly. In fact, I'll be going to Amsterdam in 8 days and my wife and I are first on the upgrade list for Delta One Suites. We're flying back from Rome two weeks later and purchased the "old" Delta One seats. Maybe I'll write a trip report... I'd like to take a "land cruise" train but have no desire to ride a regular LD train. Life's too short to be stuck on a train that long.
MidlandMike You might notice that the 3 stations that serve Glacier Nat'l Park (East Glacier, Essex, West Glacier) combined had slightly more passengers than Milwaukee. Also, Whitefish, the developed tourist town just outside Glacier NP, had more than double the passengers of Milwaukee. Milwaukee is not even in the top ten of city pairs on the EB. It's more important that transportation goes where people want to go, reather than just where people live.
You might notice that the 3 stations that serve Glacier Nat'l Park (East Glacier, Essex, West Glacier) combined had slightly more passengers than Milwaukee. Also, Whitefish, the developed tourist town just outside Glacier NP, had more than double the passengers of Milwaukee. Milwaukee is not even in the top ten of city pairs on the EB. It's more important that transportation goes where people want to go, reather than just where people live.
https://iflyglacier.com/major-cities-served/
charlie hebdo MidlandMike Modern passenger service is what is well used and exists today, anything else is interpretation. It is not a matter of interpretation. Modern passenger service is what exists in many other countries in the world, but sadly not here, with a few exceptions. Perhaps you should try riding some contemporary overseas passenger rail services instead of referring to a time 50+ years ago.
MidlandMike Modern passenger service is what is well used and exists today, anything else is interpretation.
It is not a matter of interpretation. Modern passenger service is what exists in many other countries in the world, but sadly not here, with a few exceptions. Perhaps you should try riding some contemporary overseas passenger rail services instead of referring to a time 50+ years ago.
I have ridden in Switzerland, and some equipment was up-to-the-minute, and some was of typical Amtrak age. However I was not talking about equipment, but I was responding to your LD vs. corridor operations. I had pointed out that daylight trains were nothing new (and many disappeared as railroads tried to combine as much of their service into fewer longer trains.) I am all in favor of having daytime corridor trains serving routes that LD trains serve overnight, however, under present law, states would have to support them, and few have done so far. Also, I don't subscribe to Classic Trains.
Jones1945LD Sleeper in Japan:
From the nation that brought us the capsule hotel and Ginza-style real estate prices to make such things attractive.
I happen to like the idea of a padded bunk I can roll into, with a window and amenities at my fingertips, presumably including a swing-down multimedia screen I can easily work -- navigation and all -- from my comfortable posture whether on back, front, or sides. The idea here is to maximize the salable 'sleeper' accommodation by dividing the car volume into these modules, far beyond what any 'Slumbercoach' or tourist sleeper could provide, and then presumably providing enough stand-up accommodation elsewhere in the train that 'getting out of bed' and walking around, eating, etc. can be accommodated -- it's that you don't go back to a seat instead of the capsule berth afterward, unless it is something like a 'business center' seat where you only occupy it a limited time, or for a fee, before relinquishing it to another.
I can't imagine most of the people who currently choose to ride Amtrak embracing this sort of accommodation. At all. Even if they're in physical shape to use it, which a great many really aren't.
It does occur to me that the idea of putting this into a modular CAF Viewliner shell might be an interesting thing for youth hostel type operations, or some tour or special-interest companies that can provide enough on some scheduled basis to fill the car to operating profitability. Anderson would have to bend some of his present ukases -- but I suspect if you had at all reasonable numbers he'd try it. Hell, I'd ride it instead of sitting in short-track coach all night or spending many times the alternative 'bus budget' for a stinky Superliner ride.
Deggesty The first upper berth in which I rode (in the car American Sailor), had a window. 60 of these cars (6-6-4) were built in 1942. I rode in it from North Cairo to Birmingham in 1965. It was not just the Illinois Terminal that had sleepers with windows in the upper berth. Granted, the idea did not catch on more more roads. Did you note the statement in the vdeo about the Chinese overnight service that traveling by night gives another day of sightseeing? Is that service or what? I agree that this accommodation is not suitable for day travel.
The first upper berth in which I rode (in the car American Sailor), had a window. 60 of these cars (6-6-4) were built in 1942. I rode in it from North Cairo to Birmingham in 1965. It was not just the Illinois Terminal that had sleepers with windows in the upper berth. Granted, the idea did not catch on more more roads.
Did you note the statement in the vdeo about the Chinese overnight service that traveling by night gives another day of sightseeing? Is that service or what?
I agree that this accommodation is not suitable for day travel.
From what I can find on YouTube, there are at least two different types of "High-Speed" sleeper train in China's HSR network, this one showing the older model with "traditional layout":
I guess these sleepers were originally designed for long-distance routes ( >500km) and for the traveler who prefers to depart at night and arrive their destination on the next morning (same logic like the 20th Century and the Broadway limited). But I can see they are running between Beijing and Shanghai which is only a six hour ride. Maybe it is a tradition of mainland China since sleeper (long distance train and buses) is part of the mainland Chinese's collective memories.IIRC, there are at least four options of HSR/HST service between Beijing and Shanghai (and many cities); third-class (coach), second-class (coach) and business class or Sleeper train.
LD Sleeper in Japan:
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
BaltACD Jones1945 "High-speed" (95mph) sleeper in China: Look like US Section sleeper without the ability to be configured for day travel. In the day Pullman had curtins that were more privacy enhancing, however, in the Pullman days the Upper Section did not have its own window on the world.
Jones1945 "High-speed" (95mph) sleeper in China:
Look like US Section sleeper without the ability to be configured for day travel. In the day Pullman had curtins that were more privacy enhancing, however, in the Pullman days the Upper Section did not have its own window on the world.
Johnny
I don't know if anyone remembers but we had an amusing thread here a few years ago when a Chinese student attempted to patent that exciting new HSR amenity, the open section. So don't laugh if you think it looks familiar...
Jones1945"High-speed" (95mph) sleeper in China:
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
"High-speed" (95mph) sleeper in China:
charlie hebdoOne or two overnight,12-hour sleeper trains daily over a 400 to 444 mile route is not a service.
It forms part of a service that is mostly comprised of day trains on the route. Some of those day trains likely also see relatively light patronage, but are still important to retaining overall credibility and use of the system.
It will also provide a service for those folks connecting from other trains. When the overnight train ran between Montreal and Toronto I would use it to connect to the Toronto-Chicago train the next morning. Once the overnight train was dropped, using the rails was no longer an acceptable option.
As an aside, some years later when VIA reintroduced the overnight train, they slowed it down so it arrived in Toronto several hours after the single daily train to Chicago had departed. Still completely useless for me!
Dave, Is that you and your equipment in the picture?
Why not? That is the service.
No one really needs a whole train's worth of sleeping accommodations during the day, nor in this case is serving intermediate points 'in the middle of the night' the point of running the train.
Like so many other 'residual' sleeper services in Europe, there is little perceived need for more than one train to accommodate people who want to nap in their own room during 'express' travel rather than ride a high-speed bullet service. If there is additional demand it should be little more on any particular day than could be accommodated by adding cars (and if necessary power) right up to platform capacity. (And it isn't likely that point would be often if ever reached, which I think is one of your primary points -- but that still doesn't provide any evidence for, let alone reason for, getting rid of that one daily train.)
Yes, there are special considerations for running any kind of sleeper train in this modern HST age in Europe. And to a significant extent we have seen the great dying-off of both sleeper and night trains as the HST revolution becomes more and more institutionalized (heck, in France the economy trains are 186mph TGVs). But that doesn't mean that where demand actually warrants, a night/sleeper service shouldn't exist, perhaps even if it doesn't quite 'make its nut' every day in every way.
When trsveling in comfort overnight means that you have more time for sightseeing and do not have to arrange overnight accommodations, the overnight sleeper trains are a service.
daveklepperNote that Scotland continues to subsidize sleepers from London to Inverness, Aberdeen, Edinbugh, and Glasgow. New sleepers just were put into service this past year.
One or two overnight,12-hour sleeper trains daily over a 400 to 444 mile route is not a service. There are also faster (8 hour) coach trains during the day. I see no overnight trains from London to Cardiff (Wales), 130 miles. Why would there be, when 62 trains take only about 2 hours, four take 3 hours?
A few isolated examples do not prove your desire when compared with thousands of fast day trains. You should know better.
There are other overnight services on the continent offering a variety of accomodations. When I last rode one (9 hours) four years ago from Munich to Venice, most of the passengers in couchettes and compartments (not just coaches) were young people, not seniors or handicapped. They chose this rather than taking the faster ( 6 hour) day trains to save on lodgings and get to Venice very early, spend most of the day there, and then move on to Florence or Rome.
daveklepperAnd can anyone remind me just where this church was or is located?
Could this be the church on 301 in Parrish, Florida?
Photos from a typical NY - Florida business trip. Could carry my test equipment with me with no hassle.
And can anyone remind me just where this church was or is located? Possibly expanded so the architecture is now hidden?
Note that Scotland continues to subsidize sleepers from London to Inverness, Aberdeen, Edinbugh, and Glascow. New sleepers just were put into service this past year. Older sleepers continue to serve Wales. These are all-room cars. Snack and beverage is served in a lounge car on each train. I think two trains each way handle the Scottish service, and one Wales.
Are the new sleepers modern or not?
I think my proposal for on-board meals and beverages still beats anything else, but it takes somebodies who can invest and have faith in its success.
As a person who usually used a roomette or single slumbercoach for many overnight and two-night rail trips, I'd settle for your proposed business class rather than fly. Especially if the food was decent. And no smell, please, decent maintenance.
But there still should be a handicapped room. Possibly a doctor's recommendatin would be necessary for a reservation. Then, if unoccupied, business class pasengers can bid on occupying it.
MidlandMikeModern passenger service is what is well used and exists today, anything else is interpretation.
charlie hebdo So Amtrak ran a legacy train through Columbus briefly over 40 years ago? Hardly a service or at hours convenient for actual people coming from and going there. You really don't understand what modern passenger rail service is. Most of the discussions on here belong in the Classic Trains forums.
So Amtrak ran a legacy train through Columbus briefly over 40 years ago? Hardly a service or at hours convenient for actual people coming from and going there. You really don't understand what modern passenger rail service is. Most of the discussions on here belong in the Classic Trains forums.
Modern passenger service is what is well used and exists today, anything else is interpretation. I rode a daytime train between Dayton and Cleveland (passing thru Columbus) over 50 years ago that diaappeared before Amtrak. A Cleveland-Cincy train could be established tomorrow of Ohio wanted it. Go complain to Ohio.
MidlandMike charlie hebdo The proponents of LD services ignore the facts that throughout Amtrak's history there has been no service to large cities like Columbus, Ohio. They focus on service to small towns in places in Montana, etc. Amtrak's mission is to provide service to people, not empty places with huge distances that make rail uncompetive on time and cost. I hypothesize that surveys of small towns served by Amtrak in the plains, mountain areas and intermountain region would show they would prefer to drive or fly to destinations over 700 miles away. I think their real desire is to maintain a heavily subsidized nostalgia land cruise for a small segment of our society. Amtrak definatly historically had service to Columbus in the 70s. See the current (July) issue of Trains for the story of the NY-KC National Ltd. The line was not a priority for Conrail, ridership suffered, and the train was eventually removed. Under the Pres.Obama stimulus program, Ohio was offered about $100 million for a Cleveland-Columbus-Cincy HrSR line but turned up there nose at it. I don't think you can blame Amtrak for that. Pheonix is another city that lost service beyond ATK's control. As far as small places in Montana see this fact sheet on the Empire Builder: https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3441/25.pdf You might notice that the 3 stations that serve Glacier Nat'l Park (East Glacier, Essex, West Glacier) combined had slightly more passengers than Milwaukee. Also, Whitefish, the developed tourist town just outside Glacier NP, had more than double the passengers of Milwaukee. Milwaukee is not even in the top ten of city pairs on the EB. It's more important that transportation goes where people want to go, reather than just where people live.
charlie hebdo The proponents of LD services ignore the facts that throughout Amtrak's history there has been no service to large cities like Columbus, Ohio. They focus on service to small towns in places in Montana, etc. Amtrak's mission is to provide service to people, not empty places with huge distances that make rail uncompetive on time and cost. I hypothesize that surveys of small towns served by Amtrak in the plains, mountain areas and intermountain region would show they would prefer to drive or fly to destinations over 700 miles away. I think their real desire is to maintain a heavily subsidized nostalgia land cruise for a small segment of our society.
The proponents of LD services ignore the facts that throughout Amtrak's history there has been no service to large cities like Columbus, Ohio. They focus on service to small towns in places in Montana, etc. Amtrak's mission is to provide service to people, not empty places with huge distances that make rail uncompetive on time and cost. I hypothesize that surveys of small towns served by Amtrak in the plains, mountain areas and intermountain region would show they would prefer to drive or fly to destinations over 700 miles away.
I think their real desire is to maintain a heavily subsidized nostalgia land cruise for a small segment of our society.
Amtrak definatly historically had service to Columbus in the 70s. See the current (July) issue of Trains for the story of the NY-KC National Ltd. The line was not a priority for Conrail, ridership suffered, and the train was eventually removed. Under the Pres.Obama stimulus program, Ohio was offered about $100 million for a Cleveland-Columbus-Cincy HrSR line but turned up there nose at it. I don't think you can blame Amtrak for that. Pheonix is another city that lost service beyond ATK's control.
As far as small places in Montana see this fact sheet on the Empire Builder:
https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3441/25.pdf
zardoz BaltACD The optimal Amtrak car according to many - or....
BaltACD The optimal Amtrak car according to many -
The optimal Amtrak car according to many -
or....
We can probably suspect that each of the passenger car's gross weight with those passenger loads are twice normal empty weight?
DeggestyThe substitutes are somewhat better than the newsbutches of days gone by (there wer still some in the fifties;
Shortly befor the Monon ended its passenger service,(1967?) I took the "Thoughbred" from Chicago to Lousiville and it had a "newsbutch" who rode, if I recall correctly, to Crawfordsville. He had a portable cooler in a vestibule where I watched him take two slices of bread, slather butter on them, take a leaf of lettuce, two slices of ham, put tnem in a waxed bag and there was your ham sandwich. He had a box with many items, candy, cigarettes, etc. Don't know how much $ he made. But there was food service on the train. Health inspections did not exist as far as I know?
I am amazed that I had not seen any more about these cars lately. Has all mention of them been censored?
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