Others who have posted to this thread would also be interested in seeing a complete, concise, statement of your thoughts, and if you were to gather them togehter all would be able to get the complete picture that you would present. Can you not reproduce them from memory?
Johnny
EuclidDo you really think there would be much political mileage from granstanding by charging Bostian with criminal negligence for simply losing situational awareness for a couple minutes. I don't see it.
You don't live in PA. I see it.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Deggesty Others who have posted to this thread would also be interested in seeing a complete, concise, statement of your thoughts, and if you were to gather them togehter all would be able to get the complete picture that you would present. Can you not reproduce them from memory?
There a three threads, one a repeat of this thread and the 501 thread. Have you not read them?
LocoEngineer2000If you want to know more, just send me an email at rrengr1776@aol.com Loco
I don't play those games.
243129There a three threads, one a repeat of this thread and the 501 thread. Have you not read them?
Instead of just repeating "look at the threads", why not just summarize your points (besides the training, qualifying, supervision generalities).
Euclid zugmann Euclid Could it be that the agenda is to get the blame off of Amtrak by putting it on Bostian? I think it's someone grandstanding for future political office. Always an election coming up. Do you really think there would be much political mileage from granstanding by charging Bostian with criminal negligence for simply losing situational awareness for a couple minutes. I don't see it.
zugmann Euclid Could it be that the agenda is to get the blame off of Amtrak by putting it on Bostian? I think it's someone grandstanding for future political office. Always an election coming up.
Euclid Could it be that the agenda is to get the blame off of Amtrak by putting it on Bostian?
I think it's someone grandstanding for future political office. Always an election coming up.
Do you really think there would be much political mileage from granstanding by charging Bostian with criminal negligence for simply losing situational awareness for a couple minutes. I don't see it.
Losing situational awareness for a couple of minutes!!!! Would not the inclination be to slow down when you don't know where you are?
Bostian is also a victim. A victim of Amtrak's inadequate training procedures. This and the 501 disaster are clear indicators that training along with poor vetting and poor supervision are the root causes for these accidents.
243129This and the 501 disaster are clear indicators that training along with poor vetting and poor supervision are the root causes for these accidents.
It's like a dog whistle.
243129 Euclid zugmann Euclid Could it be that the agenda is to get the blame off of Amtrak by putting it on Bostian? I think it's someone grandstanding for future political office. Always an election coming up. Do you really think there would be much political mileage from granstanding by charging Bostian with criminal negligence for simply losing situational awareness for a couple minutes. I don't see it. Losing situational awareness for a couple of minutes!!!! Would not the inclination be to slow down when you don't know where you are? Bostian is also a victim. A victim of Amtrak's inadequate training procedures. This and the 501 disaster are clear indicators that training along with poor vetting and poor supervision are the root causes for these accidents.
But the point of my comment was not to dismiss Bostian's responsibility. It was to say that I believe he will come across as a more of a victim deserving sympathy in a court trial. So I don't see how a prosecutor gains poltical points by crusifying someone that the public is willing to forgive.
Therefore, I believe the motive for criminal prosecution of Bostian is to shift the appearance of blame from Amtrak to Bostian. I see a huge motive there. I would not be surprised if the same thing happens in the case of the #501 wreck.
EuclidTherefore, I believe the motive for criminal prosecution of Bostian is to shift the appearance of blame from Amtrak to Bostian. I see a huge motive there. I would not be surprised if the same thing happens in the case of the #501 wreck.
You can't comprehend a political motive, but see a motive to shift blame to Bostian from Amtrak?
That's it.. one ticket to depart Buckyland tonight, please.
Euclid 243129 Euclid zugmann Euclid Could it be that the agenda is to get the blame off of Amtrak by putting it on Bostian? I think it's someone grandstanding for future political office. Always an election coming up. Do you really think there would be much political mileage from granstanding by charging Bostian with criminal negligence for simply losing situational awareness for a couple minutes. I don't see it. Losing situational awareness for a couple of minutes!!!! Would not the inclination be to slow down when you don't know where you are? Bostian is also a victim. A victim of Amtrak's inadequate training procedures. This and the 501 disaster are clear indicators that training along with poor vetting and poor supervision are the root causes for these accidents. I think it is quite possible that if Bostian lost situational awareness, as the NTSB says he did, he probably did not realize he had lost situational awareness. If it did realize it, I am sure he would have slowed down. Why wouldn't he have? But the point of my comment was not to dismiss Bostian's responsibility. It was to say that I believe he will come across as a more of a victim deserving sympathy in a court trial. So I don't see how a prosecutor gains poltical points by crusifying someone that the public is willing to forgive. Therefore, I believe the motive for criminal prosecution of Bostian is to shift the appearance of blame from Amtrak to Bostian. I see a huge motive there. I would not be surprised if the same thing happens in the case of the #501 wreck.
I think it is quite possible that if Bostian lost situational awareness, as the NTSB says he did, he probably did not realize he had lost situational awareness. If it did realize it, I am sure he would have slowed down. Why wouldn't he have?
You are supposed to know where you are at all times. If there is doubt you slow down and regroup. If he was without situational awareness for minutes that is criminal for both him and the company.
EuclidI think it is quite possible that if Bostian lost situational awareness, as the NTSB says he did, he probably did not realize he had lost situational awareness. If it did realize it, I am sure he would have slowed down. Why wouldn't he have? But the point of my comment was not to dismiss Bostian's responsibility. It was to say that I believe he will come across as a more of a victim deserving sympathy in a court trial. So I don't see how a prosecutor gains poltical points by crusifying someone that the public is willing to forgive. Therefore, I believe the motive for criminal prosecution of Bostian is to shift the appearance of blame from Amtrak to Bostian. I see a huge motive there. I would not be surprised if the same thing happens in the case of the #501 wreck.
A trial if any, won't be held until after the election. What happens at the trial is not germaine to the 'narrative' the will be spouted as 'law and order in a chaotic world' by the charging authority that is running to retain his office during the period prior to the election. Personally, I would not be surprised to see all charges dropped after the election 'to save the jurisdiction money'! A win win - law & order before the election; fiscal conservatism after the election.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
243129 Losing situational awareness for a couple of minutes!!!! Would not the inclination be to slow down when you don't know where you are? Bostian is also a victim. A victim of Amtrak's inadequate training procedures. This and the 501 disaster are clear indicators that training along with poor vetting and poor supervision are the root causes for these accidents.
Loco:
My emal address is daveklepper@yahoo,com. Please do send the signal plans. I'd love to have them for nostalgia reasons independent of this issue.
And you have resolved the issue. Speed restrictions were enforced by the PRR system but not at all locations, perhaps only at minority. I think the Portal Bridge slowdown, the approaches from both directions to Penn Station, and the approach to the bridge east of Newark Station, going westbound, are those that I observed. In fact I do not clearly remember any at Frankford Jc., and assumed wrongly on the basis of those that I did observe.
After the wartime wreck at Frankfort Jc., clearly something should have been done!
daveklepper Loco: My emal address is daveklepper@yahoo.com. Please do send the signal plans. I'd love to have them for nostalgia reasons independent of this issue. And you have resolved the issue. Speed restrictions were enforced by the PRR system but not at all locations, perhaps only at minority. I think the Portal Bridge slowdown, the approaches from both directions to Penn Station, and the approach to the bridge east of Newark Station, going westbound, are those that I observed. In fact I do not clearly remember any at Frankford Jc., and assumed wrongly on the basis of those that I did observe. After the wartime wreck at Frankfort Jc., clearly something should have been done!
My emal address is daveklepper@yahoo.com. Please do send the signal plans. I'd love to have them for nostalgia reasons independent of this issue.
zugmann Euclid Therefore, I believe the motive for criminal prosecution of Bostian is to shift the appearance of blame from Amtrak to Bostian. I see a huge motive there. I would not be surprised if the same thing happens in the case of the #501 wreck. You can't comprehend a political motive, but see a motive to shift blame to Bostian from Amtrak? That's it.. one ticket to depart Buckyland tonight, please.
Euclid Therefore, I believe the motive for criminal prosecution of Bostian is to shift the appearance of blame from Amtrak to Bostian. I see a huge motive there. I would not be surprised if the same thing happens in the case of the #501 wreck.
Both are political motives-- throw the book at Bostian to get re-elected -or- protect Amtrak from the bad press it deserves for having a poor safety culture. In this case, you can't have both. So I suspect the far greater motive will be to protect Amtrak. This is the magical world of reality.
charlie hebdo 243129 Deggesty Others who have posted to this thread would also be interested in seeing a complete, concise, statement of your thoughts, and if you were to gather them togehter all would be able to get the complete picture that you would present. Can you not reproduce them from memory? There a three threads, one a repeat of this thread and the 501 thread. Have you not read them? It' hard to reproduce something that was never there, Johnny.
243129 Deggesty Others who have posted to this thread would also be interested in seeing a complete, concise, statement of your thoughts, and if you were to gather them togehter all would be able to get the complete picture that you would present. Can you not reproduce them from memory? There a three threads, one a repeat of this thread and the 501 thread. Have you not read them?
It' hard to reproduce something that was never there, Johnny.
So aside from your snide remarks do you have a solution as to the causes of these disasters or are you content to just snipe from the sidelines?
How many thousands of trains have gone around that curve over the past eight decades without a problem?
There is a big difference between an accident and negligence.
Backshop How many thousands of trains have gone around that curve over the past eight decades without a problem? There is a big difference between an accident and negligence.
Absolutely.
EuclidSo I suspect the far greater motive will be to protect Amtrak. This is the magical world of reality.
Your version of reality, maybe. You really think a Philly judge cares about protecting amtrak? I doubt it. More like has her eyes on a state superior court chair (or even state DA, then onto the governorship).
You need a big public case full of emotion to get your name out there.
There is also a big difference in degree of negligence. In railroad investigations of derailments, collisions, and various other causes of death and injury, most are considered by the company to be negligence unless they are caused by natural forces such as weather or geology, in which case they are called "Acts of God."
If they are not "Acts of God," are you saying that all other cases of derailments, collsions, and other injurious or fatal mishaps that are subjected to company investigations are then routinely prosecuted by the State as criminal negligence?
I'm saying nothing of the sort. Losing situational awareness might be considered an "oops". Losing situational awareness and not taking any action until you are aware of your location might be negligence. He might not have realized where his exact location was, but he had to be aware of his approximate location and know that there was a slow curve in the vicinity that he hadn't encountered yet. Just throwing a "what if" out there...
243129 I'm not the empty vessel that's been purveying his vague trifecta (poor vetting, training and supervision) on here and elsewhere for four years. Loco Engineer has given specifics. You could take a cue from him. charlie hebdo 243129 Deggesty Others who have posted to this thread would also be interested in seeing a complete, concise, statement of your thoughts, and if you were to gather them togehter all would be able to get the complete picture that you would present. Can you not reproduce them from memory? There a three threads, one a repeat of this thread and the 501 thread. Have you not read them? It' hard to reproduce something that was never there, Johnny. So aside from your snide remarks do you have a solution as to the causes of these disasters or are you content to just snipe from the sidelines?
I'm not the empty vessel that's been purveying his vague trifecta (poor vetting, training and supervision) on here and elsewhere for four years. Loco Engineer has given specifics. You could take a cue from him.
Another question. Charlie has dodged. Not surprising.
243129Another question. Charlie has dodged. Not surprising.
Pot, kettle... etc.
243129 Another question. Charlie has dodged. Not surprising.
Perhaps you should reread what I posted long ago. I maintain better screening and monitoring for psychological and neuropsychological problems is essential. All you have contibuted endlessly is vague stuff that a ten year old kid could have invented. We only have your assertion that you were an engineer.
charlie hebdo 243129 Another question. Charlie has dodged. Not surprising. Perhaps you should reread what I posted long ago. I maintain better screening and monitoring for psychological and neuropsychological problems is essential. All you have contibuted endlessly is vague stuff that a ten year old kid could have invented. We only have your assertion that you were an engineer.
There is nothing "vague" or "general" about poor vetting, poor training and poor supervision being the major contributor to the disasters we are discussing. I challenge you or anyone else here to dispute the"stuff that a ten year old kid could have invented ". You will not because you cannot.
Poor is a easy word to throw out for glittering generalities. It doesn't pass muster when it comes to specifics.
BaltACD Poor is a easy word to throw out for glittering generalities. It doesn't pass muster when it comes to specifics.
So in your opinion what wre the causes of these two disasters?
243129 BaltACD Poor is a easy word to throw out for glittering generalities. It doesn't pass muster when it comes to specifics. So in your opinion what wre the causes of these two disasters?
You are not interested in mine or any other individual's statements of causes. Only your own - that you don't want to quantify beyond glittering generalties. Specifics - we aren't going to do your research for you.
BaltACD 243129 BaltACD Poor is a easy word to throw out for glittering generalities. It doesn't pass muster when it comes to specifics. So in your opinion what wre the causes of these two disasters? You are not interested in mine or any other individual's statements of causes. Only your own - that you don't want to quantify beyond glittering generalties. Specifics - we aren't going to do your research for you.
You dodge just like charlie, it must be 'contagious'. I challenged both of you and both of you ran.
Brandon Bostian and Stephen Brown lost situational awareness due to poor training, poor vetting and poor supervision. Dispute those "generalities".
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