243129I just wanted you to reiterate that you have zero railroad operations knowledge or experience yet you expound, imperiously I might add, on something you admit you know nothing about. As I have said previously your insults from behind the safe confines of a PC are akin to a child who calls other names while clinging to his mother's dress. How juvenile of you.
Others have pegged your number correctly. You have one answer to everything: your notion of proper training, which apparently those who know you through experience rejected multiple times. nuf' said.
243129 SD70Dude 243129 How juvenile of you. Said the pot... I'm not going to take a side, but slinging mud will win no one to your viewpoint on here. It seems as though you did.
SD70Dude 243129 How juvenile of you. Said the pot... I'm not going to take a side, but slinging mud will win no one to your viewpoint on here.
243129 How juvenile of you.
How juvenile of you.
Said the pot...
I'm not going to take a side, but slinging mud will win no one to your viewpoint on here.
It seems as though you did.
For the record, I wasn't just talking to you.
I think you are an intelligent fellow, albeit a bit difficult to get along with, and have a lot of good ideas. Which are obscured by the mud.
I think the silence you have received from Amtrak is very ominous. Wagons circling, all that good stuff...
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
charlie hebdo 243129 charlie hebdo 243129 BaltACD: Please outline what you believe to be a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC and what kind of follow up supervision and additional training that you feature as being proper. What will be the manpower cost of this program - both craft personnel and company supervision. I do in fact have a proposal for a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC with follow up supervision and additional training at considerably less money than the present procedures. However Amtrak in their arrogance chooses to continue with their hit and miss trial and error procedures. I have appealed to Boardman,"Wick" and Anderson numerous times to no avail. Not surprising. Understanding the many reasons why people can become distracted from their tasks is in fact in the province of psychology, not locomotive engineering, Mr. Numbers. Not surprising is your avoidance of my question on your railroad operations experience. If you remembered or used your brain now, you would know I never claimed to have any RR experience. As I said, it is not really germane to understanding why someone with multiyear experience on a route would lose situational awareness. The best training and supervision on the route with 10 years of experience would not prevent many of the causes of distraction (LOSA).
243129 charlie hebdo 243129 BaltACD: Please outline what you believe to be a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC and what kind of follow up supervision and additional training that you feature as being proper. What will be the manpower cost of this program - both craft personnel and company supervision. I do in fact have a proposal for a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC with follow up supervision and additional training at considerably less money than the present procedures. However Amtrak in their arrogance chooses to continue with their hit and miss trial and error procedures. I have appealed to Boardman,"Wick" and Anderson numerous times to no avail. Not surprising. Understanding the many reasons why people can become distracted from their tasks is in fact in the province of psychology, not locomotive engineering, Mr. Numbers. Not surprising is your avoidance of my question on your railroad operations experience.
charlie hebdo 243129 BaltACD: Please outline what you believe to be a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC and what kind of follow up supervision and additional training that you feature as being proper. What will be the manpower cost of this program - both craft personnel and company supervision. I do in fact have a proposal for a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC with follow up supervision and additional training at considerably less money than the present procedures. However Amtrak in their arrogance chooses to continue with their hit and miss trial and error procedures. I have appealed to Boardman,"Wick" and Anderson numerous times to no avail. Not surprising. Understanding the many reasons why people can become distracted from their tasks is in fact in the province of psychology, not locomotive engineering, Mr. Numbers.
243129 BaltACD: Please outline what you believe to be a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC and what kind of follow up supervision and additional training that you feature as being proper. What will be the manpower cost of this program - both craft personnel and company supervision. I do in fact have a proposal for a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC with follow up supervision and additional training at considerably less money than the present procedures. However Amtrak in their arrogance chooses to continue with their hit and miss trial and error procedures. I have appealed to Boardman,"Wick" and Anderson numerous times to no avail.
Not surprising.
Understanding the many reasons why people can become distracted from their tasks is in fact in the province of psychology, not locomotive engineering, Mr. Numbers.
Not surprising is your avoidance of my question on your railroad operations experience.
If you remembered or used your brain now, you would know I never claimed to have any RR experience. As I said, it is not really germane to understanding why someone with multiyear experience on a route would lose situational awareness. The best training and supervision on the route with 10 years of experience would not prevent many of the causes of distraction (LOSA).
I just wanted you to reiterate that you have zero railroad operations knowledge or experience yet you expound, imperiously I might add, on something you admit you know nothing about.
As I have said previously your insults from behind the safe confines of a PC are akin to a child who calls other names while clinging to his mother's dress. How juvenile of you.
243129BaltACD: Please outline what you believe to be a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC and what kind of follow up supervision and additional training that you feature as being proper. What will be the manpower cost of this program - both craft personnel and company supervision. I do in fact have a proposal for a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC with follow up supervision and additional training at considerably less money than the present procedures. However Amtrak in their arrogance chooses to continue with their hit and miss trial and error procedures. I have appealed to Boardman,"Wick" and Anderson numerous times to no avail.
Understanding the many reasons why people can become distracted from their tasks ("loss of situational awareness") is in fact in the province of psychology, not locomotive engineering, Mr. Numbers.
SD70Dude Changing things would seem to require an admission by those currently in charge that the current procedures (which they developed and oversee) are lacking in some respects.
Changing things would seem to require an admission by those currently in charge that the current procedures (which they developed and oversee) are lacking in some respects.
charlie hebdo 243129 Brandon Bostian had less than three years experience on the NEC and five overall as an engineer. "No he never learned his territory. [/sarcasm] " Then why did he derail after entering a curve at wtice the posted speed limit? Do you seriously believe that someone could not "learn the territory" satisfactorily in three years? Learn how to be an effective engineer in five years?"Loss of situational awareness" is bureauspeak for not paying attention. The causes of that are various but training and supervision is not a major factor. I suspect other engineers on here would concur if they were willing to subject themselves to your typical ad hominem attacks.
243129 Brandon Bostian had less than three years experience on the NEC and five overall as an engineer. "No he never learned his territory. [/sarcasm] " Then why did he derail after entering a curve at wtice the posted speed limit?
Do you seriously believe that someone could not "learn the territory" satisfactorily in three years? Learn how to be an effective engineer in five years?"Loss of situational awareness" is bureauspeak for not paying attention. The causes of that are various but training and supervision is not a major factor. I suspect other engineers on here would concur if they were willing to subject themselves to your typical ad hominem attacks.
With the training he received yes I seriously believe that someone could not "learn the territory" satisfactorily in three years. No "ad hominem" attacks here, I speak from first hand knowledge of Amtrak's vetting, hiring ,training and supervisory procedures.
So tell us Monsieur Hebdo what is your experience in railroad operations? Have you been 'in the trenches' of a Class I railroad?
BaltACD 243129 BaltACD 243129 No need to "narrow up your brush". Five years as an engineer? Six years for the conductor? Five years for the assistant conductor? One year for the second assistant conductor? Hmm how many trips had he (Bostian) made WAS-NYP and what is the 'pedigree' of the supervisor who qualified him? It is my understanding that he had minimal experience on the NEC. 5 years as a engineer running NY-DC is probably somewhere between 200 & 250 round trips per year. No he never learned his territory. [/sarcasm] The NTSB report makes no mention of other territories he may have worked. On the day of the incident, he had worked an Acela run NY-DC and was turned back from DC to run #188 to NY on the day of the incident. I have no idea of Amtrak's supervisors or what their pedigrees are or what Amtrak's continuing training of their employees amounts to - and neither do you. If those employees are working their turns - no matter if they are on regularly scheduled jobs or the Extra Board - they will be on their runs a minimum of 200 days and probably closer to 300 days per year. Nobody learns their job by repetition. [/sarcasm] I have no idea of what form of qualifying exam Amtrak uses before permitting employees to be considered Qualified for the positions of Engineer and/or Conductor (Assistant Conductors may or may not be qualified conductors). Brandon Bostian had less than three years experience on the NEC and five overall as an engineer. "No he never learned his territory. [/sarcasm] " Then why did he derail after entering a curve at wtice the posted speed limit? "The NTSB report makes no mention of other territories he may have worked." Has the NTSB issued it's final report? Mr.Bostian's history indicates that he worked in other areas of the country before coming to the NEC. "I have no idea of Amtrak's supervisors or what their pedigrees are or what Amtrak's continuing training of their employees amounts to - and neither do you." Au contraire Mr. Assistant Chief Dispatcher. I have worked with the results of Amtrak's hiring and training procedures so I know first hand of it's inadequacies. Were you to check the pedigree of supervision you will find that they themselves possess minimal experience. Bostian was a 'victim' of said hiring and training practices. He and the engineers in the Dupont disaster, BalaCynwd, Charlottesville etc. debacles never should have been certified. Example: When one loses situational awareness would not the inclination be to slow down? None of these engineers did so. Amtrak has a history of the unknowing teaching(and hiring) the unknowing and the results have been apparent in it's recent history of disasters. "I have no idea of what form of qualifying exam Amtrak uses before permitting employees to be considered Qualified for the positions of Engineer and/or Conductor (Assistant Conductors may or may not be qualified conductors)." You are absolutely right when you say you have no idea. Please outline what you believe to be a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC and what kind of follow up supervision and additional training that you feature as being proper. What will be the manpower cost of this program - both craft personnel and company supervision.
243129 BaltACD 243129 No need to "narrow up your brush". Five years as an engineer? Six years for the conductor? Five years for the assistant conductor? One year for the second assistant conductor? Hmm how many trips had he (Bostian) made WAS-NYP and what is the 'pedigree' of the supervisor who qualified him? It is my understanding that he had minimal experience on the NEC. 5 years as a engineer running NY-DC is probably somewhere between 200 & 250 round trips per year. No he never learned his territory. [/sarcasm] The NTSB report makes no mention of other territories he may have worked. On the day of the incident, he had worked an Acela run NY-DC and was turned back from DC to run #188 to NY on the day of the incident. I have no idea of Amtrak's supervisors or what their pedigrees are or what Amtrak's continuing training of their employees amounts to - and neither do you. If those employees are working their turns - no matter if they are on regularly scheduled jobs or the Extra Board - they will be on their runs a minimum of 200 days and probably closer to 300 days per year. Nobody learns their job by repetition. [/sarcasm] I have no idea of what form of qualifying exam Amtrak uses before permitting employees to be considered Qualified for the positions of Engineer and/or Conductor (Assistant Conductors may or may not be qualified conductors). Brandon Bostian had less than three years experience on the NEC and five overall as an engineer. "No he never learned his territory. [/sarcasm] " Then why did he derail after entering a curve at wtice the posted speed limit? "The NTSB report makes no mention of other territories he may have worked." Has the NTSB issued it's final report? Mr.Bostian's history indicates that he worked in other areas of the country before coming to the NEC. "I have no idea of Amtrak's supervisors or what their pedigrees are or what Amtrak's continuing training of their employees amounts to - and neither do you." Au contraire Mr. Assistant Chief Dispatcher. I have worked with the results of Amtrak's hiring and training procedures so I know first hand of it's inadequacies. Were you to check the pedigree of supervision you will find that they themselves possess minimal experience. Bostian was a 'victim' of said hiring and training practices. He and the engineers in the Dupont disaster, BalaCynwd, Charlottesville etc. debacles never should have been certified. Example: When one loses situational awareness would not the inclination be to slow down? None of these engineers did so. Amtrak has a history of the unknowing teaching(and hiring) the unknowing and the results have been apparent in it's recent history of disasters. "I have no idea of what form of qualifying exam Amtrak uses before permitting employees to be considered Qualified for the positions of Engineer and/or Conductor (Assistant Conductors may or may not be qualified conductors)." You are absolutely right when you say you have no idea.
BaltACD 243129 No need to "narrow up your brush". Five years as an engineer? Six years for the conductor? Five years for the assistant conductor? One year for the second assistant conductor? Hmm how many trips had he (Bostian) made WAS-NYP and what is the 'pedigree' of the supervisor who qualified him? It is my understanding that he had minimal experience on the NEC. 5 years as a engineer running NY-DC is probably somewhere between 200 & 250 round trips per year. No he never learned his territory. [/sarcasm] The NTSB report makes no mention of other territories he may have worked. On the day of the incident, he had worked an Acela run NY-DC and was turned back from DC to run #188 to NY on the day of the incident. I have no idea of Amtrak's supervisors or what their pedigrees are or what Amtrak's continuing training of their employees amounts to - and neither do you. If those employees are working their turns - no matter if they are on regularly scheduled jobs or the Extra Board - they will be on their runs a minimum of 200 days and probably closer to 300 days per year. Nobody learns their job by repetition. [/sarcasm] I have no idea of what form of qualifying exam Amtrak uses before permitting employees to be considered Qualified for the positions of Engineer and/or Conductor (Assistant Conductors may or may not be qualified conductors).
243129 No need to "narrow up your brush". Five years as an engineer? Six years for the conductor? Five years for the assistant conductor? One year for the second assistant conductor? Hmm how many trips had he (Bostian) made WAS-NYP and what is the 'pedigree' of the supervisor who qualified him? It is my understanding that he had minimal experience on the NEC.
5 years as a engineer running NY-DC is probably somewhere between 200 & 250 round trips per year. No he never learned his territory. [/sarcasm] The NTSB report makes no mention of other territories he may have worked. On the day of the incident, he had worked an Acela run NY-DC and was turned back from DC to run #188 to NY on the day of the incident.
I have no idea of Amtrak's supervisors or what their pedigrees are or what Amtrak's continuing training of their employees amounts to - and neither do you.
If those employees are working their turns - no matter if they are on regularly scheduled jobs or the Extra Board - they will be on their runs a minimum of 200 days and probably closer to 300 days per year. Nobody learns their job by repetition. [/sarcasm] I have no idea of what form of qualifying exam Amtrak uses before permitting employees to be considered Qualified for the positions of Engineer and/or Conductor (Assistant Conductors may or may not be qualified conductors).
Brandon Bostian had less than three years experience on the NEC and five overall as an engineer.
"No he never learned his territory. [/sarcasm] " Then why did he derail after entering a curve at wtice the posted speed limit?
"The NTSB report makes no mention of other territories he may have worked."
Has the NTSB issued it's final report? Mr.Bostian's history indicates that he worked in other areas of the country before coming to the NEC.
"I have no idea of Amtrak's supervisors or what their pedigrees are or what Amtrak's continuing training of their employees amounts to - and neither do you."
Au contraire Mr. Assistant Chief Dispatcher. I have worked with the results of Amtrak's hiring and training procedures so I know first hand of it's inadequacies. Were you to check the pedigree of supervision you will find that they themselves possess minimal experience. Bostian was a 'victim' of said hiring and training practices. He and the engineers in the Dupont disaster, BalaCynwd, Charlottesville etc. debacles never should have been certified. Example: When one loses situational awareness would not the inclination be to slow down? None of these engineers did so. Amtrak has a history of the unknowing teaching(and hiring) the unknowing and the results have been apparent in it's recent history of disasters.
"I have no idea of what form of qualifying exam Amtrak uses before permitting employees to be considered Qualified for the positions of Engineer and/or Conductor (Assistant Conductors may or may not be qualified conductors)."
You are absolutely right when you say you have no idea.
Please outline what you believe to be a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC and what kind of follow up supervision and additional training that you feature as being proper. What will be the manpower cost of this program - both craft personnel and company supervision.
I do in fact have a proposal for a proper training program and qualification procedure for engineers on the NEC with follow up supervision and additional training at considerably less money than the present procedures. However Amtrak in their arrogance chooses to continue with their hit and miss trial and error procedures. I have appealed to Boardman,"Wick" and Anderson numerous times to no avail.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
243129Brandon Bostian had less than three years experience on the NEC and five overall as an engineer. "No he never learned his territory. [/sarcasm] " Then why did he derail after entering a curve at wtice the posted speed limit?
Euclid 243129 No need to "narrow up your brush". Five years as an engineer? Six years for the conductor? Five years for the assistant conductor? One year for the second assistant conductor? Hmm how many trips had he (Bostian) made WAS-NYP and what is the 'pedigree' of the supervisor who qualified him? It is my understanding that he had minimal experience on the NEC. Was Bostian running on the NEC for his entire five years? I seem to recall reading about his entire railroad career including his starting work on the NEC. I can't recall the details now, but it is probably still available on line.
No need to "narrow up your brush". Five years as an engineer? Six years for the conductor? Five years for the assistant conductor? One year for the second assistant conductor? Hmm how many trips had he (Bostian) made WAS-NYP and what is the 'pedigree' of the supervisor who qualified him? It is my understanding that he had minimal experience on the NEC.
Was Bostian running on the NEC for his entire five years? I seem to recall reading about his entire railroad career including his starting work on the NEC. I can't recall the details now, but it is probably still available on line.
It has been said he worked in other areas as an engineer before coming to the NEC.
Here it goes again.
243129No need to "narrow up your brush". Five years as an engineer? Six years for the conductor? Five years for the assistant conductor? One year for the second assistant conductor? Hmm how many trips had he (Bostian) made WAS-NYP and what is the 'pedigree' of the supervisor who qualified him? It is my understanding that he had minimal experience on the NEC.
243129 The loss of situational awareness in the Dupont disaster, and also the Frankford Jct. tragedy, is and will be attributed to inexperience, poor supervision, poor vetting and poor training. The blame lies squarely on Amtrak's hiring (vetting) and training practices.
The loss of situational awareness in the Dupont disaster, and also the Frankford Jct. tragedy, is and will be attributed to inexperience, poor supervision, poor vetting and poor training. The blame lies squarely on Amtrak's hiring (vetting) and training practices.
Narrow up your brush. The Train 188 crew was experienced on their territory
NTSB Report for Train 188The locomotive engineer, 31, was hired by Amtrak on June 26, 2006. He had been an engineer since 2010. He was experienced, certified, and qualified to perform his duties. As mentioned earlier, he had maintained a regular work and rest schedule for several days leading up to the accident, and there was no evidence that he suffered from fatigue. He had no identified medical conditions, and postaccident toxicology tests showed no evidence that he was impaired by alcohol, other drugs, or any substance. The engineer had no previous disciplinary action. During his emergency medical treatment after the accident, it was noted that he had some retrograde and anterograde amnesia and was diagnosed with an acute head injury, a left knee laceration, a forehead laceration, and a right knee sprain.38 Postaccident evaluations by specialists indicated that he had a posttraumatic headache and a concussion resulting from the accident. The conductor, 32, had been hired by Amtrak on August 14, 2009. The first assistant conductor, 38, was hired on October 14, 2011. The second assistant conductor, 34, was hired on May 7, 2014. Toxicological tests for all four of the operating crewmembers were negative for all drugs tested pursuant to 49 CFR Part 219, Subpart C, Post-Accident Toxicological Testing.39 In addition, the engineer was tested for more than 1,300 substances with negative results except for lidocaine, a local anesthetic administered during postaccident medical treatment. Amtrak records indicated that the crewmembers had taken and successfully completed numerous railroad training courses. The courses covered various aspects of railroad operations. Some also included management oversight to ensure employees could properly apply and were in compliance with railroad rules, regulations, and instructions. Amtrak records also contained no disciplinary action for the crewmembers during the preceding year.
During his emergency medical treatment after the accident, it was noted that he had some retrograde and anterograde amnesia and was diagnosed with an acute head injury, a left knee laceration, a forehead laceration, and a right knee sprain.38 Postaccident evaluations by specialists indicated that he had a posttraumatic headache and a concussion resulting from the accident.
The conductor, 32, had been hired by Amtrak on August 14, 2009. The first assistant conductor, 38, was hired on October 14, 2011. The second assistant conductor, 34, was hired on May 7, 2014.
Toxicological tests for all four of the operating crewmembers were negative for all drugs tested pursuant to 49 CFR Part 219, Subpart C, Post-Accident Toxicological Testing.39 In addition, the engineer was tested for more than 1,300 substances with negative results except for lidocaine, a local anesthetic administered during postaccident medical treatment.
Amtrak records indicated that the crewmembers had taken and successfully completed numerous railroad training courses. The courses covered various aspects of railroad operations. Some also included management oversight to ensure employees could properly apply and were in compliance with railroad rules, regulations, and instructions. Amtrak records also contained no disciplinary action for the crewmembers during the preceding year.
Minimal information has been released about the Amtrak 501 incident.
NTSB Amtrak 501 reportThe 55-year-old engineer had been working for Amtrak since May 2004 and had been promoted to engineer in August 2013. The other crewmember in the cab of the locomotive was a 48-year-old “qualifying” conductor who was being familiarized with the territory. This conductor had been working for Amtrak since June 2010 and had been promoted to conductor in November 2011. As of the date of this report, the NTSB has not yet been able to interview either operating crewmember of the lead locomotive due to their injuries sustained in the accident.
Since the 501 incident happened on the inaugaral run of the train on a new route - improper training is the most likely cause. The indcident is still under NTSB investigation as no final report has been issued to this date.
zugmann Euclid Where is the challenge? Challenge is to enjoy life.
Euclid Where is the challenge?
Challenge is to enjoy life.
Why is it a challenge? Why does it require daring in order to enjoy life?
EuclidWhere is the challenge?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Euclid It seems to be a general feeling that life should be good. Yeah, how dare they...?
Euclid It seems to be a general feeling that life should be good.
Yeah, how dare they...?
Where is the challenge?
charlie hebdo Euclid charlie hebdo Cognitive dissonance has nothing to do with the accident or this thread. Problems in cognitive processes likely did. The former poster did not understand this. Can you give an example of how problems in cognitive processes would have played a role in the engineer not reacting to the distant warning sign and not slowing down in approach to the curve? This was discussed before in the Philly crash thread. Without getting too involved in this case, some possible cognitive processing problems could include: a temporary dissociative state much like "highway hypnosis" (very common); ADHD, adult form (common); partial-complex seizure disorder (rare); lack of sleep; sleep cycle dysregulation; medication interference; distraction by interactions with other crew members.
Euclid charlie hebdo Cognitive dissonance has nothing to do with the accident or this thread. Problems in cognitive processes likely did. The former poster did not understand this. Can you give an example of how problems in cognitive processes would have played a role in the engineer not reacting to the distant warning sign and not slowing down in approach to the curve?
charlie hebdo Cognitive dissonance has nothing to do with the accident or this thread. Problems in cognitive processes likely did. The former poster did not understand this.
Cognitive dissonance has nothing to do with the accident or this thread. Problems in cognitive processes likely did. The former poster did not understand this.
Can you give an example of how problems in cognitive processes would have played a role in the engineer not reacting to the distant warning sign and not slowing down in approach to the curve?
This was discussed before in the Philly crash thread. Without getting too involved in this case, some possible cognitive processing problems could include: a temporary dissociative state much like "highway hypnosis" (very common); ADHD, adult form (common); partial-complex seizure disorder (rare); lack of sleep; sleep cycle dysregulation; medication interference; distraction by interactions with other crew members.
Okay, I see what you mean.
EuclidIt seems to be a general feeling that life should be good.
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