Your comment is like the pot calling the kettle black.
Electroliner 1935 https://www.facebook.com/coffeeparty/photos/a.313395813326.193473.304981108326/10157544196343327/?type=3 To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
https://www.facebook.com/coffeeparty/photos/a.313395813326.193473.304981108326/10157544196343327/?type=3
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
Please point out where you think I have "renounced the use of reason" or are you just another who likes to sit back and launch snarky asides?
BaltACD 243129 " I think you'll find engineers are occasionally asked to make runs on stretches they've never handled before." Any engineer who makes a run on territory he has never been on should be fired. You weren't around in 1971 when the Carriers (all that were in the National Agreement) unilaterally implemented New Work Rules. #1 All Union defined seniority operating districts were ABOLISHED. #2 Eight hours constituted a work day - no mileage component. #3 If you were a engineer you would operate the train you were called for no matter where that train went - refusal was considered insubordination and the person was dismissed without any form of Investigation our other due process. New Castle based engineers that normally worked to Willard, Lorain, Cleveland and Painesville ended up operating trains to Garrett, Connellsville and Cumberland - all routes that they had never been qualified on. What techniques they used to prevent catastrophe I don't know - I just know there was no Amtrak 501 or 188 incidents. These Work Rules remained in effect for nearly a month until Labor and Management ended up negotiating a new National Contract for the operating crafts. Those that were dismissed for insubordination during the period were returned to service (and it wasn't a big number).
243129 " I think you'll find engineers are occasionally asked to make runs on stretches they've never handled before." Any engineer who makes a run on territory he has never been on should be fired.
Any engineer who makes a run on territory he has never been on should be fired.
You weren't around in 1971 when the Carriers (all that were in the National Agreement) unilaterally implemented New Work Rules. #1 All Union defined seniority operating districts were ABOLISHED. #2 Eight hours constituted a work day - no mileage component. #3 If you were a engineer you would operate the train you were called for no matter where that train went - refusal was considered insubordination and the person was dismissed without any form of Investigation our other due process.
New Castle based engineers that normally worked to Willard, Lorain, Cleveland and Painesville ended up operating trains to Garrett, Connellsville and Cumberland - all routes that they had never been qualified on. What techniques they used to prevent catastrophe I don't know - I just know there was no Amtrak 501 or 188 incidents.
These Work Rules remained in effect for nearly a month until Labor and Management ended up negotiating a new National Contract for the operating crafts. Those that were dismissed for insubordination during the period were returned to service (and it wasn't a big number).
I was indeed "around in 1971" and experienced that which you mention. However you leave out the fact that all these engineers that were in uncharted territory were accompanied by pilot engineers. Your portrayal is preposterous.
cx500 243129 Any engineer who makes a run on territory he has never been on should be fired. In other words, he should refuse a direct order and get fired for insubordination. Either way he loses. That poisoned work environment exists on a number of major freight railroads; don't know if Amtrak is similar.
243129 Any engineer who makes a run on territory he has never been on should be fired.
In other words, he should refuse a direct order and get fired for insubordination. Either way he loses. That poisoned work environment exists on a number of major freight railroads; don't know if Amtrak is similar.
Yes he should refuse such an order in the interest of safety to himself the crew and his passengers. Should he be fired for insubordination there is not a law board in the country that would not rule in his favor. Should an airline pilot if ordered fly a plane he has not qualified on?
Deggesty BaltACD 243129 " I think you'll find engineers are occasionally asked to make runs on stretches they've never handled before." Any engineer who makes a run on territory he has never been on should be fired. You weren't around in 1971 when the Carriers (all that were in the National Agreement) unilaterally implemented New Work Rules. #1 All Union defined seniority operating districts were ABOLISHED. #2 Eight hours constituted a work day - no mileage component. #3 If you were a engineer you would operate the train you were called for no matter where that train went - refusal was considered insubordination and the person was dismissed without any form of Investigation our other due process. New Castle based engineers that normally worked to Willard, Lorain, Cleveland and Painesville ended up operating trains to Garrett, Connellsville and Cumberland - all routes that they had never been qualified on. What techniques they used to prevent catastrophe I don't know - I just know there was no Amtrak 501 or 188 incidents. These Work Rules remained in effect for nearly a month until Labor and Management ended up negotiating a new National Contract for the operating crafts. Those that were dismissed for insubordination during the period were returned to service (and it wasn't a big number). Balt, I had never heard of this. I am aghast at the idea that railroad management would tell an employee to operate a train when the employee did not know the territory. Were dispatchers ordered to take charge of new territory without being trained on it?
Balt, I had never heard of this. I am aghast at the idea that railroad management would tell an employee to operate a train when the employee did not know the territory. Were dispatchers ordered to take charge of new territory without being trained on it?
The carriers actions were not against the ATDA, they had negotiated a continuing agreement. The actions were against the BLE and the organizations that represented Conductors and Trainmen who were still operating under an agreement that had expired several years before. The carriers actions were being used as a hammer to hit the nail of a new contract. To the extent that a contract was negotiated to all parties acceptance within a month, the tactic proved to be successful. 1971 was a different time in the world.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Johnny
243129" I think you'll find engineers are occasionally asked to make runs on stretches they've never handled before." Any engineer who makes a run on territory he has never been on should be fired.
243129If you become lost or "temporarily disoriented" would not the inclination be to slow down? Neither 501 or 188 did so. Improper training, vetting and supervision once again .
You have to realize that you're disoriented before you can do something about it. Neither engineer had time to realize their disorientation.
Part of the modern training that has reduced airline accidents substantially has been a focus on human factors affecting performance, such as recognizing loss of situational awareness, understanding confirmation bias (which I strongly suspect has a role in the 188 crash), the effects of startle response and other recognized psychological phenomenon that you deem as of no use to 'real railroaders'.
A similar program should be part of the reconstruction of Amtrak's safety culture.
243129A properly trained, vetted and properly supervised engineer would not become lost on 14.5 miles of new territory.
He wasn't properly supervised nor trained on the route. No one's arguing that. He should have had far more training runs at speed on the route. There should have been an RFE in the cab for the first few revenue runs. There shouldn't have been a trainee in the cab on the first revenue run. These are things that Amtrak and Sound Transit failed to provide, and they set the engineer up to fail. He was a respected, experienced railroader, and he made a terrible mistake. He's not the first, and plenty of 'old heads' have as well.
Things need to change at Amtrak, but you've provided no evidence your solutions would be any better.
243129Any senior qualifying engineer would not accept training under those absurd circumstances.
And what, exactly, was his recourse, other than the unemployment line?
243129Any engineer who makes a run on territory he has never been on should be fired.
243129 charlie hebdo 243129 A properly trained, vetted and properly supervised engineer would not become lost on 14.5 miles of new territory. People get temporarily disoriented on roads they've driven on for years all the time. Sometimes they miss a turn. It's generally not because they are terrible drivers or that they don't "know" the route. If you become lost or "temporarily disoriented" would not the inclination be to slow down? Neither 501 or 188 did so. Improper training, vetting and supervision once again .
charlie hebdo 243129 A properly trained, vetted and properly supervised engineer would not become lost on 14.5 miles of new territory. People get temporarily disoriented on roads they've driven on for years all the time. Sometimes they miss a turn. It's generally not because they are terrible drivers or that they don't "know" the route.
243129 A properly trained, vetted and properly supervised engineer would not become lost on 14.5 miles of new territory.
People get temporarily disoriented on roads they've driven on for years all the time. Sometimes they miss a turn. It's generally not because they are terrible drivers or that they don't "know" the route.
If you become lost or "temporarily disoriented" would not the inclination be to slow down? Neither 501 or 188 did so. Improper training, vetting and supervision once again .
It depends on when you realize that you are disoriented. It might be way past the turnoff (or point where you are to slow down) and then it imight be too late.
My sense is that the engineer of 501 did not try hard enough to make sure he did not fail to slow down for that curve. Maybe he had never faced that clear of a challenge before in his career, and so never got into trouble. But especially with not knowing the landmarks, he should have made a tremendous effort to learn a procedure for not losing track of that curve
" I think you'll find engineers are occasionally asked to make runs on stretches they've never handled before."
NorthWest His training on the route consisted of a few runs at 30 MPH, some of which were in a trailing cab car at night. He also had an assistant conductor trainee in the cab that was learning the route. I think any senior engineer would be set up to fail under these circumstances.
His training on the route consisted of a few runs at 30 MPH, some of which were in a trailing cab car at night. He also had an assistant conductor trainee in the cab that was learning the route.
I think any senior engineer would be set up to fail under these circumstances.
A properly trained, vetted and properly supervised engineer would not become lost on 14.5 miles of new territory.
"His training on the route consisted of a few runs at 30 MPH, some of which were in a trailing cab car at night."
Any senior qualifying engineer would not accept training under those absurd circumstances.
I think you should ask some current engineers on here. He made an unknown number of runs of 29 minutes on a new stretch. He had been operating for 5 years on other, longer stretches, apparently without accidents and he wasn't a rookie. I think you'll find engineers are occasionally asked to make runs on stretches they've never handled before.
charlie hebdo 243129 14.5 miles of new 79 mph territory with a 30 mph speed restriction and he lost his situational awareness. This person did not possess the aptitude to become a locomotive engineer and Amtrak does not possess supervision qualified to assess whether or not a person has the aptitude for the position of locomotive engineer. Correct me if my recollection is in error, but I thought he had had considerable experience as an engineer. Of course, neither he nor anyone else had had much on this 14.5 mile stretch of a new route for the Cascades.
243129 14.5 miles of new 79 mph territory with a 30 mph speed restriction and he lost his situational awareness. This person did not possess the aptitude to become a locomotive engineer and Amtrak does not possess supervision qualified to assess whether or not a person has the aptitude for the position of locomotive engineer.
Correct me if my recollection is in error, but I thought he had had considerable experience as an engineer. Of course, neither he nor anyone else had had much on this 14.5 mile stretch of a new route for the Cascades.
Five years is not considerable as is in evidence of not being able to remember you have a 30mph slow down in 79mph territory on 14.5 miles of new territory. This guy didn't even know he was lost.
24312914.5 miles of new 79 mph territory with a 30 mph speed restriction and he lost his situational awareness. This person did not possess the aptitude to become a locomotive engineer and Amtrak does not possess supervision qualified to assess whether or not a person has the aptitude for the position of locomotive engineer.
charlie hebdo Returning to 501 (or Philly), what do you think were the major factors for the loss of situational awareness, lack of familiarity with the route, poor training or impairment of focus (since you dislike cognitive processing deficits)?
Returning to 501 (or Philly), what do you think were the major factors for the loss of situational awareness, lack of familiarity with the route, poor training or impairment of focus (since you dislike cognitive processing deficits)?
14.5 miles of new 79 mph territory with a 30 mph speed restriction and he lost his situational awareness. This person did not possess the aptitude to become a locomotive engineer and Amtrak does not possess supervision qualified to assess whether or not a person has the aptitude for the position of locomotive engineer. That coupled with poor training and poor supervision was the RX for disaster. Amtrak has a history of the unknowing teaching the unknowing.
Since retiring I have taken a train trip numerous times on the NEC and invariably I can feel ACSES 'running' the train. That tells me, and any other experienced railroader, that the operator is poorly qualified.
I took a trip on the Auto Train and felt like I was in the caboose of a 125 car freight train. Upon arrival at Sanford the auto racks were cut away from the coaches and the crew had not set the brakes on the standing coaches before making the cut! Poor training at it's finest.
zugmann 243129 Now back to the cause(s) of the 501 disaster. Sure. With the occasional break for your petty insults.
243129 Now back to the cause(s) of the 501 disaster.
Now back to the cause(s) of the 501 disaster.
Sure.
With the occasional break for your petty insults.
Your Trumpesque attempt at deflection is quite weak. Shall we scroll back for proof of your initiation of hostilities or will you brush it off a la Trump because truth means nothing to you?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
243129Since you admit that you post nothing of substance I will no longer entertain any of your juvenile remarks.
You keep saying that.
zugmann 243129 Good decision. You never post anything of substance anyway. I changed my mind. Your words speak for themselves.
243129 Good decision. You never post anything of substance anyway.
I changed my mind. Your words speak for themselves.
Yes they do when referring to you.
Since you admit that you post nothing of substance I will no longer entertain any of your juvenile remarks.
243129Good decision. You never post anything of substance anyway.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.