NP Eddie ALL: Moving the EB to the Willmar line will not happen--not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar. Ed Burns
ALL:
Moving the EB to the Willmar line will not happen--not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar.
Ed Burns
Mark Meyer
VerMontanan NP Eddie ALL: Moving the EB to the Willmar line will not happen--not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar. Ed Burns Ed: If this wasn't the Empire Builder we're taking about, this statement might have merit, but since it is, it has none. In FY2016, the Empire Builder regained its status (that it previously held for 10 straight years 2004-2013) as Amtrak's most-ridden long distance passenger train stopping in many, as you say, "not enough towns big enough to support a train." At the start of Amtrak in 1971, Amtrak could have chosen any route for its lone Chicago-Seattle train. The Empire Builder was retained, but on a dramatically changed route. Chicago-Twin Cities shifted to the Milwaukee Road, Fargo-Minot shifted to the Grand Forks routing, and Spokane (actually Sandpoint) to Seattle shifted to a routing via Yakima. In all instances, the reason was due to greater exisiting ridership. And note however, that route through Willmar was initially retained, and that was because if higher ridership than the St. Cloud routings (routes via both Staples and Alexandria were options back then). The change to the St. Cloud routing in 1979 during the massive long-distance-trains cutback had more to do with Amtrak's "regional balance" decree (keeping part of one route, such as routing the Southwest Chief through Topeka when the Lone Star was dropped) than anything else. Again, on line population was the greatest determining factor, the Empire Builder would certainly have the most anemic ridership of all the long distance trains instead of the best. Clearly, there are other factors. Ridership at St. Cloud, Staples, and Detroit Lakes is hardly stellar. With a metro population of nearly 200,000, St. Cloud's FY2016 ridership was 11,457. Sure, the train times there are lousy, but they also are at Grand Forks with half the population, but Grand Forks draws in 20 percent more riders, too. In fact, St. Cloud's ridership is less than Wisconsin Dells, Tomah, La Crosse, Winona, Grand Forks, Minot, Williston, Havre, and Wenatchee, all cities ranging from smaller than to much smaller than the St. Cloud area in population. (So, too, are stations like Columbus, Glacier Park, and Whitefish, but they tap major tourist areas or larger-than-St. Cloud nearby cities.) Brainerd has a micropolitan area approaching 100,000 in population, which is probably split in using stops at St. Cloud and Staples, but the ridership at Staples (6,120) isn't much greater than at Detroit Lakes (5,290). When the Empire Builder operated via Willmar, the situation was much the same as it is now: Towns along the route had little access to alternative public transportation. The Willmar stopped tapped the Southwest Minnesota market, and there was good ridership to and from Breckenridge to the North Dakota State College of Science in adjacent Wahpeton. Morris was the stop for the University of Minnesota-Morris. Therefore, prior to 1971, it's fairly easy to see why the Willmar routing was chosen over either of the routings via St. Cloud. Given the mediocre-at-best ridership at existing Amtrak stations between St. Paul and Fargo, the lack of public transportation along the Willmar routing and no parallel 4-lane highway most of the way, I would challenge you for definitive proof that the Willmar route has "not enough towns big enough to support a train" compared to the current route. The reality is that ridership on the current routing west of St. Paul is not sufficiently significant to keep the train running there for that reason. The salient point is how to best serve Minneapolis given the albratross that is the current stop at SPUD. A north suburban Minneapolis stop is a must, and is the most likely temporary solution to the situation created when Midway was discontinued. But it does not address how to adequately serve downtown Minneapolis. I have complete doubt that anything will happen toward the start of passenger service between Duluth and Minneapolis in the next few years, but if it does eventually get off the ground, the Twin Cities destination is the Minneapolis downtown area. While I agree that Minneapolis has "painted itself into a corner" with the current situation, I don't believe that anything is unchangable. The fact remains that the current Target Field site needs to be modified to accept any more passenger trains, but be it trains from Duluth, Chicago, or the Empire Builder, it will have to be modified. If the occasion ever presents itself for the desired optimum solution, it will be to move the Empire Builder through downtown Minneapolis. Without doubt, increased ridership gained with a downtown Minneapolis stop - even if not a staffed station - would easily surpass any that only MAY be lost ending service to stations on the existing St. Cloud routing. Relatively speaking, the Willmar routing would not take a significant (again, using the term "relatively speaking") amount of money to get up to passenger train speeds. A suburb stop in idyllic Wayzata could also benefit ridership, and with most of the funding in place for the Willmar Bypass (a $50 million project to provide a direct connection from the Morris to Marshall subdvisions bypassing downtown Willmar) in place, current fluidity on the route can only increase. As for moving a crew base. Not a big deal. Amtrak wants to do that now for California Zephyr crews in Denver (to Lincoln). If the clock could be turned back and the Great Northern Station and Stone Arch Bridge were retained to host passenger trains, I would certainly favor the Empire Builder routing via Staples in the hope that it, being the fastest route, could be the catalyst for additional Twin Cities-Fargo-Grand Forks daytime passenger trains. But as the current desire by most in Minnesota is for additional trains from the Twin Cities to Chicago and Twin Cities to Twin Ports, the obvious focus will remain on downtown Minneapolis for a station site, and it is most logical and beneficial that when/if that time comes, the Empire Builder follow, and if that means a routing west from Minneapolis via Willmar that is what must happen.
RR Johnson I still believe our best option for the present time, is to demand a stop for the Empire Builder at the Fridley Northstar Station, for all the reasons stated in previous posts. Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
You make a convincing case for Fridley, at least until a decent stop can be constructed in Minneapolis.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
RRJohnson:
I wish you would reread my post. Nowhere did I state that we should hold out for a downtown Minneapolis and not make a suburban stop in the interim, in fact I specifically stated this should happen. My exact wording was, “A north suburban Minneapolis stop is a must, and is the most likely temporary solution to the situation created when Midway was discontinued.”
You also missed the point about my suggestion about the Minneapolis stop. Yes, the current situation is flawed, but there are still many in Minnesota who think the new service from Duluth is going to terminate in downtown Minneapolis, and when this happens, something is going to change. My point simply was that when a different station situation occurs, the Empire Builder should be part of it.
I disagree with your claim that “lobbying by top BN management to avoid any passenger trains being routed via Northtown do to the ongoing construction of a new hump yard” is a reason the first Amtrak Empire Builder was routed through Willmar. Had this been the case, 5 or so weeks after the inception of Amtrak when the North Coast Hiawatha was added as an experimental Amtrak route, it too would have run via Willmar instead of via Northtown as it did.
Your statement about the pre-Amtrak North Coast Limited not stopping at St. Cloud, could have some validity with regard to ridership, though St. Cloud was also served by the Western Star. I always did think it was odd that train didn’t make a St. Cloud stop. It’s also true that Northern Pacific did chronically and historically provide inferior passenger train service to the Great Northern (it is thoroughly documented here at http://www.gngoat.org/GN-MILW-NP.pdf starting in the middle of the document) which has effected passenger service as we know it. But it’s also true that the ex-NP route had more and better other public transportation and a parallel interstate highway, which continues to be true today. So, given that reality of relatively poor ridership at St. Cloud, Staples, and Detroit Lakes today, at least the history of better passenger train service and higher ridership via Willmar is a known quantity and a solid basis for stating that route would provide patronage at least equal to what we have now. But most of all, staying on point, my post was simply to counter Ed’s statement that the Willmar routing has “not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar” which is simply historically and factually untrue.
I think another reason that the Empire Builder should stop at Fridley or Coon Rapids or wherever is simply to show the public that there is interest in making Amtrak service more accessible, and the more this gets it “out there” for everyone to see, it can only make more aware of proposals for other service in the area, such as additional trains to places like Duluth and Chicago.
VerMontanan RRJohnson: I wish you would reread my post. Nowhere did I state that we should hold out for a downtown Minneapolis and not make a suburban stop in the interim, in fact I specifically stated this should happen. My exact wording was, “A north suburban Minneapolis stop is a must, and is the most likely temporary solution to the situation created when Midway was discontinued.” You also missed the point about my suggestion about the Minneapolis stop. Yes, the current situation is flawed, but there are still many in Minnesota who think the new service from Duluth is going to terminate in downtown Minneapolis, and when this happens, something is going to change. My point simply was that when a different station situation occurs, the Empire Builder should be part of it. I disagree with your claim that “lobbying by top BN management to avoid any passenger trains being routed via Northtown do to the ongoing construction of a new hump yard” is a reason the first Amtrak Empire Builder was routed through Willmar. Had this been the case, 5 or so weeks after the inception of Amtrak when the North Coast Hiawatha was added as an experimental Amtrak route, it too would have run via Willmar instead of via Northtown as it did. Your statement about the pre-Amtrak North Coast Limited not stopping at St. Cloud, could have some validity with regard to ridership, though St. Cloud was also served by the Western Star. I always did think it was odd that train didn’t make a St. Cloud stop. It’s also true that Northern Pacific did chronically and historically provide inferior passenger train service to the Great Northern (it is thoroughly documented here at http://www.gngoat.org/GN-MILW-NP.pdf starting in the middle of the document) which has effected passenger service as we know it. But it’s also true that the ex-NP route had more and better other public transportation and a parallel interstate highway, which continues to be true today. So, given that reality of relatively poor ridership at St. Cloud, Staples, and Detroit Lakes today, at least the history of better passenger train service and higher ridership via Willmar is a known quantity and a solid basis for stating that route would provide patronage at least equal to what we have now. But most of all, staying on point, my post was simply to counter Ed’s statement that the Willmar routing has “not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar” which is simply historically and factually untrue. I think another reason that the Empire Builder should stop at Fridley or Coon Rapids or wherever is simply to show the public that there is interest in making Amtrak service more accessible, and the more this gets it “out there” for everyone to see, it can only make more aware of proposals for other service in the area, such as additional trains to places like Duluth and Chicago.
Mark and All:
First of all, Ed and I are retired professional railroaders and live in Minnesota. I must also add that Ed and I are very good friends!
The X-NP line does has larger cities that the Willmar line. St. Cloud has a university and Detroit Lakes garners passeners from the surrounding area.
Just stick to the facts and let's all try and get AMTRAK to have a conditional stop at the Fridley North Star station.
RR Johnson As for the other points, it was the powerful Montana Senator and Senate Majority Leader Mike Mansfield, that overuled Mr Menk and got the North Coast Hiawatha started up in the first place and insisted that it follow the old NP route right out of Minneapolis
As for the other points, it was the powerful Montana Senator and Senate Majority Leader Mike Mansfield, that overuled Mr Menk and got the North Coast Hiawatha started up in the first place and insisted that it follow the old NP route right out of Minneapolis
Ed: I would ask you for documentation of this, because simply I do not believe this could be the case. As a native Montanan well aware of the situation in Montana at the time, I know that Mansfield only was interested in getting a train across the Southern part of the state. I sincerely doubt that he cared about the route in Minnesota. More logically, I think that the route through Staples was used because it was the one of very few segments where the ex-NP route was was faster than the ex-GN route traversed by the Empire Builder. This, along with the Empire Builder going via Grand Forks (longer running time) would best allow Amtrak trains 25 and 26 to be combined with the Empire Builder between Minneapolis and Spokane. (They began operating separately all the way to Chicago from Spokane in the fall of 1971, and all the way from Seattle to Chicago in 1973) . A way to cut running time for 25 and 26 was important because the ex-GN route, even operating via Grand Forks, was faster and would otherwise burden the Empire Builder with the slower Southern Montana train.
RR Johnson The Western Star only served St Cloud in the 1950's and in 1970 and early 1971 until Amtrak killed it. Throughout the 1960's it ran with the Empire Builder via Willmar.
Not true. The eastbound Western Star served St. Cloud from May 27, 1962 to February 15, 1968. (The westbound train operated via Willmar; during this period the westbound Red River operated through St. Cloud and its eastbound counterpart operated via Willmar to "even up" the service on both routes provided by the Western Star.) The eastbound Western Star then returned to the Willmar routing until Febuary 3, 1970, when both the westbound and eastbound trains began operating via St. Cloud. But again, you missed my overall point, which had nothing to do with the Western Star. Rather, it was to point out that just before the start of Amtrak, even with the North Coast Limited not stopping at St. Cloud, St. Cloud had two passenger trains daily (the Mainstreeeter and Western Star). So, even with two passenger trains serving St. Cloud, as well as all the other ridership for all the trains between St. Cloud and Fargo via both routes, Amtrak still chose the Willmar routing due to the higher existing ridership, just like with the rest of the route.
I certainly hope that some day Minneapolis will warrant its own station and it does not have to be at Target Field. But I believe that one on the west side of the river rather than the east (or north if you prefer) side would be preferred by potential patrons.
NP Eddie The X-NP line does has larger cities that the Willmar line. St. Cloud has a university and Detroit Lakes garners passeners from the surrounding area.
NP Eddie First of all, Ed and I are retired professional railroaders and live in Minnesota.
VerMontanan NP Eddie The X-NP line does has larger cities that the Willmar line. St. Cloud has a university and Detroit Lakes garners passeners from the surrounding area. Ed: I didn't say that the route via Willmar "had larger cities" than route via St. Cloud. In fact, as I stated earlier, the Empire Builder itself proves that population does not equate to ridership being the most-ridden long distance train rather than the least. However, outside the St. Cloud metropolitan area, the Willmar (population 42,239) and Wahpeton-Breckenridge (population 22,897) micropolitan areas dwarf anything on the ex-NP route west of St. Cloud. And for clarification, it is only west of St. Cloud (Sauk Rapids) that is the ex-NP. Before the 1970 merger, the route between Sauk Rapids and Minneapolis was joint GN and NP, with each owning a track. NP Eddie First of all, Ed and I are retired professional railroaders and live in Minnesota. As infromation, I am a current professional railroader, and am happy to have been paying into YOUR Railroad Retirement for over 40 years. I don't live in Minnesota, but I've visited often and one of the areas I oversee in my job is the state of Minnesota.
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