NP Eddie ALL: I do agree that there should be a conditional stop in Anoka, Coon Rapids Riverdale, or Fridley, however there are a number of operating considerations that must be addressed: 1. The Fridley station is only on Track 2. 2. Anoka and Riverdale can be accessed on Tracks 1 or 2. How would the passengers be told to be on Track 1 or Track 2? (Public address by Metro Transit?) 3. If the stations are remotely locked after North Star, Metro Transit would need to unlock them. Many considerations to approach and solve. I did appear at an Anoka City Council meeting about one year ago to address stopping at Anoka and have not heard if Amtrak and the BNSF are willing to discuss the subject. Ed Burns
ALL:
I do agree that there should be a conditional stop in Anoka, Coon Rapids Riverdale, or Fridley, however there are a number of operating considerations that must be addressed:
1. The Fridley station is only on Track 2.
2. Anoka and Riverdale can be accessed on Tracks 1 or 2. How would the passengers be told to be on Track 1 or Track 2? (Public address by Metro Transit?)
3. If the stations are remotely locked after North Star, Metro Transit would need to unlock them.
Many considerations to approach and solve. I did appear at an Anoka City Council meeting about one year ago to address stopping at Anoka and have not heard if Amtrak and the BNSF are willing to discuss the subject.
Ed Burns
Dakguy201 I believe the current schedule is the result of additional padding being added when BNSF was choking with the addition of crude oil trains. Now that capacity had been increased through additional trackwork and crude demand moderated, it may be possible to tighten up the schedule to accomodate an additional stop.
The lengthened schedule for Bakken delays ended in January of 2015.
Mark Meyer
This whole situation should be a reminder to us about the lack of foresight of allowing the Minneapolis Great Northern Station to be torn down in the late 1970s. This was the best site for a passenger stop in all of the Twin Cities, and now we're trying to figure out how to correct this ongoing blunder. While Midway Station lacked aesthetic appeal, it did offer free parking and rental cars, and was quite close to the University of Minnesota. For the $243 million that was spent on the boondoggle that is St. Paul Union Depot, the route through Midway Station could have been signaled and the speeds upgraded.
I am all for a surburban Minneapolis stop. I think that the Coon Rapids facility has best access to roads, and is safest, being near a large shopping area. Looking ahead, the stop needs to return to downtown Minneapolis at or near Target field. This of course will require infrastructure upgrade there, but also because the Empire Builder would again need to be routed via Willmar (and even given that the train's current schedule, I believe ridership would be as good as the current routing through St. Cloud), which would require that railroad to be upgraded to 79 MPH.
Ridership for the Twin Cities Amtrak stop has fallen since it was moved to SPUD. Given the challenges of timekeeping during the Bakken boom, and then subsequent loss of ridership in the Bakken bust, it's hard to pinpoint a reason that ridership at St. Paul has fallen, but I believe over the years if the operation of the train is stablized (and the Republicans don't discontinue it altogether which is very real threat), we will see that it is lower than at Midway, simply due to the inferior location of stopping at St. Paul Union Depot.
And speaking of routing the Empire Builder via Willmar, could there be a more idyllic suburban stop than Wayzata????
schlimm Pre-Amtrak, pre-BN, the EB stopped in Minneapolis and even changed engines (from GN to CB&Q). There should be a 2nd stop in Minneapolis.
Pre-Amtrak, pre-BN, the EB stopped in Minneapolis and even changed engines (from GN to CB&Q). There should be a 2nd stop in Minneapolis.
The locomotive power was changed in St. Paul, never in Minneapolis. For many years, CB&Q power would power the Empire Builder as far as Havre where it would be replaced with GN power and return to Chicago on the eastbound train the next day.
When the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited were combined on the Burlington, the trains were split in St. Paul and ran separately to Minneapolis and on to the West Coast.
Johnny
[quote user="VerMontanan"]
And speaking of routing the Empire Builder via Willmar, could there be a more idyllic suburban stop than Wayzata???[quote user="VerMontanan"]
VerMontanan:
VerMontanan schlimm Pre-Amtrak, pre-BN, the EB stopped in Minneapolis and even changed engines (from GN to CB&Q). There should be a 2nd stop in Minneapolis. The locomotive power was changed in St. Paul, never in Minneapolis. For many years, CB&Q power would power the Empire Builder as far as Havre where it would be replaced with GN power and return to Chicago on the eastbound train the next day.
My original post was, but I omitted "at SPUD" : "Pre-Amtrak, pre-BN, the EB stopped in Minneapolis and even changed engines (from GN to CB&Q)."
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I think the Twin Cities needs to get it's act together on where it wants the rail terminus' located before it initiates cooridor service to Chicago. Reading this thread makes Minnesota sound like the land of confusion right now. Happy to say that Wisconsin is a little more forward thinking in the planning area.
CMStPnP I think the Twin Cities needs to get it's act together on where it wants the rail terminus' located before it initiates cooridor service to Chicago. Reading this thread makes Minnesota sound like the land of confusion right now. Happy to say that Wisconsin is a little more forward thinking in the planning area.
How do you figure that? Other than planning/adding another train to Chicago (jointly with IDOT), what has WI done except waste millions to cancel the train to Madison?
schlimm CMStPnP I think the Twin Cities needs to get it's act together on where it wants the rail terminus' located before it initiates cooridor service to Chicago. Reading this thread makes Minnesota sound like the land of confusion right now. Happy to say that Wisconsin is a little more forward thinking in the planning area. How do you figure that? Other than planning/adding another train to Chicago (jointly with IDOT), what has WI done except waste millions to cancel the train to Madison?
Here is another way to look at the Empire Builder and how it serves the Twin Cities metro area:
I'm leaving out Miami and New York, where I know there are suburban stops (e.g. Yonkers, Fort Lauderdale, etc.). If the Coast Starlight can stop in Simi Valley, and the Empire Builder in Edmonds and Vancouver, then why can't the Empire Builder also stop in Fridley or somewhere representing the western half of the Twin Cities metro area?
If you open a station at Fridley or Midway that may overload with passengers the Builder MSP - CHI. With a possible pending implosion at Nippon (NS) the availability of rolling stock may become very tight. Horizons are not going to be available to fill in ?
schlimmHow do you figure that? Other than planning/adding another train to Chicago (jointly with IDOT), what has WI done except waste millions to cancel the train to Madison?
Pretty sure it is a goal of three more RT Freuencies to Chicago #1. Wisconsin saved a lot of money cancelling the HSR project.
Wisconsin paid for a large portion of the Milwaukee Depot cost in 1965 then rehabbed recently making it Intermodal. Most of the Amtrak Depots across Wisconsin have been rehabbed or built with State funds (is that the case in MN?).
Lets compare Milwaukee with SPUD. Milwaukee 5 tracks and accompanying platforms compared to two tracks at SPUD. Two tracks for reserve cars or private cars for a total of 7 tracks. Soon to be 11 RT passenger frequencies between Milwaukee and Chicago compared with the Twin Cities one RT to Chicago. Haven't counted the frieght train movements through the Milwaukee Depot but they up the count quite a bit. Still plenty of platform capacity to add new trains in Milwaukee. The station needs a little expansion but the plan is to convert the huge Milwaukee Post Office next door to retail space and if they need more Depot space there they can use space in that building or expand to the second floor of the Milwaukee Depot and knock down the wall seperating the 2nd floor from the passenger over the tracks walkways.
Wisconsin has spent money replacing the jointed rail with welded rail between Milwaukee and the Metra service border and intends a speed upgrade at some point to 90 mph. Defintely Wisconsin needs to work on Metra getting it's damn trains out of the way as far as using crossover tracks and generally the choke point at Rondout but that is already a future agenda item.
Where does MN see it's next rail corridor. Not necessarily to Chicago but instead to Duluth? Really? What about Twin Cities to Kansas City via Des Moines (I only put that in to read in the not too distant future the CAN'T BE DONE comments, line at CAPACITY statements, which are entertaining to read at times). A connection to Kansas City over the former C&NW spine line or some other route would potentially expand the choices of Twin City travelers to include a shorter and faster route to Des Moines, LA, KC and St. Louis. Open up potential destinations in OK and TX with the new Amtrak thruway connection at Newton (which will probably see a replacement with a connecting train before MN gets around to funding anything). Seems to me that expansion South to KC would make more sense for Twin City passengers..........is that even on the future 10-20 year plan? Nope.
As for the new Western Twin Cities station. I don't see it happening without heavy state intervention by MN. Amtrak does not like unstaffed stations for LD trains, especially in a major metro area. I suspect it's a percieved security or crime issue. Corridor trains another matter but MN isn't talking about a corridor here. They really need to invest more in SPUD rail access and train capacity as a higher priority.
So I view this mostly as dreamland. You can dream but it will probably never happen with just one LD train and nothing in the plans for anytime in the forseeable future. Nothing wrong with dreaming or talking about it but that is as far as it will go.
As for comparing the Twin Cities to Dallas - Fort Worth. No comparison in distance between the two or in population density. No the two city pairs are NOT exactly the same. Quite a difference between the two. Also Fort Worth has two active downtown Passenger stations. One is ex-T&P and looks very similar to Michigan Central Station in Detroit (but maintained a little better) the other is the new Fort Worth Intermodal Station where most of the City bus routes stop along with Greyhound. Amtrak does not serve T&P station in Fort Worth but instead runs right by it. TRE allows cross platform connections to Amtrak at both Fort Worth Intermodal and in Dallas. So Amtrak can skip the suburban stations and operate as a express train instead of a milk run.
I have used the downtown Milwaukee station at least four times and Mitchell Airport station twice. In both cases, I was impressed. Downtown in particular compares very favorably with other regional rail passenger facilities such as St. Louis. Wisconsin seems to have abandoned dreams of the near impossible (HSR) is favor of making achieveable incremental improvements to the existing system. Good for them!
Dakguy201 I have used the downtown Milwaukee station at least four times and Mitchell Airport station twice. In both cases, I was impressed. Downtown in particular compares very favorably with other regional rail passenger facilities such as St. Louis. Wisconsin seems to have abandoned dreams of the near impossible (HSR) is favor of making achieveable incremental improvements to the existing system. Good for them!
HSR to Madison and Twin Cities is still in the plan. They did not like Obama's terms which the State of Illinois is going to pay for soon when all that Fed money turns into a loan from a grant at the end of 2017. Unless they get the Feds to change the terms before then or are up and running at 110 mph by then on the whole Corridor.
Allegedly, Milwaukee to Green Bay via Fond Du Lac and Oshkosh is also in the cards at some point but I do not see that happening with only one rail line left unless they relay most of the torn up C&NW.
CMStPnP Dakguy201 I have used the downtown Milwaukee station at least four times and Mitchell Airport station twice. In both cases, I was impressed. Downtown in particular compares very favorably with other regional rail passenger facilities such as St. Louis. Wisconsin seems to have abandoned dreams of the near impossible (HSR) is favor of making achieveable incremental improvements to the existing system. Good for them! HSR to Madison and Twin Cities is still in the plan. They did not like Obama's terms which the State of Illinois is going to pay for soon when all that Fed money turns into a loan from a grant at the end of 2017. Unless they get the Feds to change the terms before then or are up and running at 110 mph by then on the whole Corridor. Allegedly, Milwaukee to Green Bay via Fond Du Lac and Oshkosh is also in the cards at some point but I do not see that happening with only one rail line left unless they relay most of the torn up C&NW.
Well on the MN GOP. I imagine it runs like all political parties and is influenced by grass roots political support. Which I might add exists strongly in Wisconsin for Chicago to Milwaukee trains but is absent in Minnesota for a lot of their rail plans.
Secondly, I eagerly await the day when Minnesota opens it's wallet and funds an Amtrak train. It's been several decades since that has happened and I think Wisconsin's freight and passenger rail subsidy program is light years ahead of Minnesota in planning and expenditure.
CMStPnP Well on the MN GOP. I imagine it runs like all political parties and is influenced by grass roots political support. Which I might add exists strongly in Wisconsin for Chicago to Milwaukee trains but is absent in Minnesota for a lot of their rail plans. Secondly, I eagerly await the day when Minnesota opens it's wallet and funds an Amtrak train. It's been several decades since that has happened and I think Wisconsin's freight and passenger rail subsidy program is light years ahead of Minnesota in planning and expenditure.
Two words: Walker. Talgo.
RR Johnson CMStPnP Well on the MN GOP. I imagine it runs like all political parties and is influenced by grass roots political support. Which I might add exists strongly in Wisconsin for Chicago to Milwaukee trains but is absent in Minnesota for a lot of their rail plans. Secondly, I eagerly await the day when Minnesota opens it's wallet and funds an Amtrak train. It's been several decades since that has happened and I think Wisconsin's freight and passenger rail subsidy program is light years ahead of Minnesota in planning and expenditure. Actually, the Chicago to Milwaukee Corridor was already in operation at beginning of Amtrak as a gift from the Milwaukee Road, ultimately to the states of Illinois and Wisconsin. This is hardly the situation we had in Minnesota on May 1, 1971 when we were left with just one train, the Empire Builder. I suppose if Minnesota had a corridor like this from the start, we would have a rowdy fan club for it, too. Anyway, over the last 45 years, I don't see where either state has set the world on fire. They've increased the Hiawatha frequencies, while we have built, both the Northstar Commuter Line, and 2 LRT lines from scratch. Now, we have the green light from the Feds to extend both lines, and the necessary funding to do so. Now, how much new passenger rail has Wisconsin built since 1971?? Oh that's right, they're still working on their streetcar line (how quaint) but otherwise it's zero. I'm sorry if I have to introduce facts into the picture, but what else can I do. You can make all the big plans you want, but where are the results?? By the way, aren't we off the subject of this post a wee bit??: Getting the Empire Builder to stop near Minneapolis? I'm just not interested in comparing Minnesota to anyone else. Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
Actually, the Chicago to Milwaukee Corridor was already in operation at beginning of Amtrak as a gift from the Milwaukee Road, ultimately to the states of Illinois and Wisconsin. This is hardly the situation we had in Minnesota on May 1, 1971 when we were left with just one train, the Empire Builder. I suppose if Minnesota had a corridor like this from the start, we would have a rowdy fan club for it, too. Anyway, over the last 45 years, I don't see where either state has set the world on fire. They've increased the Hiawatha frequencies, while we have built, both the Northstar Commuter Line, and 2 LRT lines from scratch. Now, we have the green light from the Feds to extend both lines, and the necessary funding to do so. Now, how much new passenger rail has Wisconsin built since 1971?? Oh that's right, they're still working on their streetcar line (how quaint) but otherwise it's zero. I'm sorry if I have to introduce facts into the picture, but what else can I do. You can make all the big plans you want, but where are the results?? By the way, aren't we off the subject of this post a wee bit??: Getting the Empire Builder to stop near Minneapolis? I'm just not interested in comparing Minnesota to anyone else. Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
Asking for passenger stops both at Midway and Fridley strikes me as a bridge too far. Could the work that is now done at Midway be moved to Fridley? Just looking at the location on Google Earth, it appears that with the addition of a few feet of track and a switch a place would be created to store cars for the run to Chicago.
I agree with my good friend Ed Johnson that a Fridley, MN stop (probably conditional) stop is a good idea for the northern suburbs. The only North Star platform is on Track 2. Then the train could continue on Track 2 to the station stop and crew change point of St. Cloud. The entire line is two MT CTC so moving from Track 2 to Track 1 and back to Track 2 is an operating consideration. I don't feel that Midway (old Amtrak) station is viable or practical.
There is no "work" routinely performed at Midway Station. Watering facilities are available at SPUD. The only reason the Empire Builder stops at Midways is if the train is to cut or add locomotives or cars, and occasionally for operating reasons (such as hand-throwning switches on the Minneseota Commercial Railroad), which is just part of the ridiculousness of this routing. But reality being what it is (unless you believe "alternate facts"), we're stuck with SPUD and the routing through the Twin Cities. That's why the biggest bang for the buck would be to get the current route signaled (to increase speed) and implement the suburban stop. Ultimately, the Empire Builder's Minneapolis stop needs to be Target Field and the train routed via Willmar. A "Minneapolis Junction" area stop is just too far from downtown and would require dedicated transit to it. The Target Field location has - and always will have - access to most of the Twin Cities' transit. Any stop short of this is just a stopgap measure short of what would be the best location in the Twin Cities. All of this of course would cost a lot of money, but anything short is will never allow Amtrak to be as palatable of a choice for patrons as when trains stopped at Great Northern Station.
It sounds like adding stops at both Midway and Fridley would be too much. Since coaches are added/cut off for heavier MSP-CHI traffic (at Midway?) a stop on the east side of Minneapolis at Midway seems to make the most sense for the interim.
VerMontanan There is no "work" routinely performed at Midway Station. Watering facilities are available at SPUD. The only reason the Empire Builder stops at Midways is if the train is to cut or add locomotives or cars, and occasionally for operating reasons (such as hand-throwning switches on the Minneseota Commercial Railroad), which is just part of the ridiculousness of this routing. But reality being what it is (unless you believe "alternate facts"), we're stuck with SPUD and the routing through the Twin Cities. That's why the biggest bang for the buck would be to get the current route signaled (to increase speed) and implement the suburban stop. Ultimately, the Empire Builder's Minneapolis stop needs to be Target Field and the train routed via Willmar. A "Minneapolis Junction" area stop is just too far from downtown and would require dedicated transit to it. The Target Field location has - and always will have - access to most of the Twin Cities' transit. Any stop short of this is just a stopgap measure short of what would be the best location in the Twin Cities. All of this of course would cost a lot of money, but anything short is will never allow Amtrak to be as palatable of a choice for patrons as when trains stopped at Great Northern Station.
RR Johnson VerMontanan There is no "work" routinely performed at Midway Station. Watering facilities are available at SPUD. The only reason the Empire Builder stops at Midways is if the train is to cut or add locomotives or cars, and occasionally for operating reasons (such as hand-throwning switches on the Minneseota Commercial Railroad), which is just part of the ridiculousness of this routing. But reality being what it is (unless you believe "alternate facts"), we're stuck with SPUD and the routing through the Twin Cities. That's why the biggest bang for the buck would be to get the current route signaled (to increase speed) and implement the suburban stop. Ultimately, the Empire Builder's Minneapolis stop needs to be Target Field and the train routed via Willmar. A "Minneapolis Junction" area stop is just too far from downtown and would require dedicated transit to it. The Target Field location has - and always will have - access to most of the Twin Cities' transit. Any stop short of this is just a stopgap measure short of what would be the best location in the Twin Cities. All of this of course would cost a lot of money, but anything short is will never allow Amtrak to be as palatable of a choice for patrons as when trains stopped at Great Northern Station. VerMontanan and all: There can never be a replacement for the magnificent late Great Northern Station of Minneapolis, J J Hills' Beaux-Arts masterpiece, both for its elegent beauty, superb design and function, and irreplacable location. The Target Field Station is a rude joke for a large city passenger station. It has 2 tracks serving a small platform and that is all that it can ever have, due to its suffocating location, deep in a canyon of new buildings, hemmed in next to a large new major league baseball stadium; the old historic Ford Motor Building, on one side and brand new apartment buildings on other side, and its tracks crammed next to the single track main line, (which operates as a shoo-fly to get past the stadium) and under several new bridges. It was not even built with restrooms or waiting rooms, other than the pathetic shacks on the Northstar platform. IMO, it is not even suitable for a remote suburban station, much less a rail hub for downtown Minneapolis. It has absolutely no room for future expansion, other than extending the platform about 100 feet to perhaps to accomodate a 7 car train. There was plain and simply no competence involved in creating this disaster. Now the MinnDOT wants its future NLX trains from Duluth to terminate here?? And then there is the current disussion about having #7 & 8 stop here and use the Willmar line instead of the Staples subdivision which would leave the large city of St Cloud without any rail service. This would also involve upgrading 100 miles of FRA class 3 track (current speed limit 40 mph) to FRA class 4 track and please note that the rest of the line has a maximum speed of 60 mph. Those that think that these speed limits can be easily raised, please refer to my previous post concerning the 268 miles of track west of Minneapolis, that we have been trying to get the BNSF to raise to 79 mph, for the past 40 years with no luck so far. There are other problems with the Willmar route as well, including a lack of sidings, especially west of Morris. As for backing #7 & 8 in and out of this station over the 2+ plus miles including over 2 river bridges, Amtrak and the BNSF have said forget about it. Anyway, the very idea of this station serving any future needs as a big city passenger train hub is IMO, ridiculous. The only place that can serve all of the needs of a future passenger rail hub, IMO, is the Minneapolis Jct Wye area. This is the one and only location that can serve all of the future possible rail routes, without the need to back-up long distances. It's only one mile from old GN Station and it is served by a hi-frequency metro bus line that goes to the heart of the downtown. However, a new station here is most likely at least several years away, if ever. Meanwhile, Midway Station is the best we can do, for serving most of Minneapolis and the southwestern half of the Twin Cities metro area, now. SPUD and Fridley can handle the rest of the metro. If Midway is reopened, it will increase the ridership of 7 & 8 to the point where more equipment will be needed, some of which would be taken on and off at Midway, as it was done in the past. This work can only be done at Midway, by the Minn Comm RR. I believe the new top management at Amtrak could be persuaded to correct this past terrible mistake. The building is still in good condition and all it really needs is an attendant/security guard to make this work! Let's get more people to ride the Empire Builder!! Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
VerMontanan and all: There can never be a replacement for the magnificent late Great Northern Station of Minneapolis, J J Hills' Beaux-Arts masterpiece, both for its elegent beauty, superb design and function, and irreplacable location. The Target Field Station is a rude joke for a large city passenger station. It has 2 tracks serving a small platform and that is all that it can ever have, due to its suffocating location, deep in a canyon of new buildings, hemmed in next to a large new major league baseball stadium; the old historic Ford Motor Building, on one side and brand new apartment buildings on other side, and its tracks crammed next to the single track main line, (which operates as a shoo-fly to get past the stadium) and under several new bridges. It was not even built with restrooms or waiting rooms, other than the pathetic shacks on the Northstar platform. IMO, it is not even suitable for a remote suburban station, much less a rail hub for downtown Minneapolis. It has absolutely no room for future expansion, other than extending the platform about 100 feet to perhaps to accomodate a 7 car train. There was plain and simply no competence involved in creating this disaster. Now the MinnDOT wants its future NLX trains from Duluth to terminate here?? And then there is the current disussion about having #7 & 8 stop here and use the Willmar line instead of the Staples subdivision which would leave the large city of St Cloud without any rail service. This would also involve upgrading 100 miles of FRA class 3 track (current speed limit 40 mph) to FRA class 4 track and please note that the rest of the line has a maximum speed of 60 mph. Those that think that these speed limits can be easily raised, please refer to my previous post concerning the 268 miles of track west of Minneapolis, that we have been trying to get the BNSF to raise to 79 mph, for the past 40 years with no luck so far. There are other problems with the Willmar route as well, including a lack of sidings, especially west of Morris. As for backing #7 & 8 in and out of this station over the 2+ plus miles including over 2 river bridges, Amtrak and the BNSF have said forget about it. Anyway, the very idea of this station serving any future needs as a big city passenger train hub is IMO, ridiculous. The only place that can serve all of the needs of a future passenger rail hub, IMO, is the Minneapolis Jct Wye area. This is the one and only location that can serve all of the future possible rail routes, without the need to back-up long distances. It's only one mile from old GN Station and it is served by a hi-frequency metro bus line that goes to the heart of the downtown. However, a new station here is most likely at least several years away, if ever. Meanwhile, Midway Station is the best we can do, for serving most of Minneapolis and the southwestern half of the Twin Cities metro area, now. SPUD and Fridley can handle the rest of the metro. If Midway is reopened, it will increase the ridership of 7 & 8 to the point where more equipment will be needed, some of which would be taken on and off at Midway, as it was done in the past. This work can only be done at Midway, by the Minn Comm RR. I believe the new top management at Amtrak could be persuaded to correct this past terrible mistake. The building is still in good condition and all it really needs is an attendant/security guard to make this work! Let's get more people to ride the Empire Builder!! Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
RR Johnson RR Johnson VerMontanan There is no "work" routinely performed at Midway Station. Watering facilities are available at SPUD. The only reason the Empire Builder stops at Midways is if the train is to cut or add locomotives or cars, and occasionally for operating reasons (such as hand-throwning switches on the Minneseota Commercial Railroad), which is just part of the ridiculousness of this routing. But reality being what it is (unless you believe "alternate facts"), we're stuck with SPUD and the routing through the Twin Cities. That's why the biggest bang for the buck would be to get the current route signaled (to increase speed) and implement the suburban stop. Ultimately, the Empire Builder's Minneapolis stop needs to be Target Field and the train routed via Willmar. A "Minneapolis Junction" area stop is just too far from downtown and would require dedicated transit to it. The Target Field location has - and always will have - access to most of the Twin Cities' transit. Any stop short of this is just a stopgap measure short of what would be the best location in the Twin Cities. All of this of course would cost a lot of money, but anything short is will never allow Amtrak to be as palatable of a choice for patrons as when trains stopped at Great Northern Station. VerMontanan and all: There can never be a replacement for the magnificent late Great Northern Station of Minneapolis, J J Hills' Beaux-Arts masterpiece, both for its elegent beauty, superb design and function, and irreplacable location. The Target Field Station is a rude joke for a large city passenger station. It has 2 tracks serving a small platform and that is all that it can ever have, due to its suffocating location, deep in a canyon of new buildings, hemmed in next to a large new major league baseball stadium; the old historic Ford Motor Building, on one side and brand new apartment buildings on other side, and its tracks crammed next to the single track main line, (which operates as a shoo-fly to get past the stadium) and under several new bridges. It was not even built with restrooms or waiting rooms, other than the pathetic shacks on the Northstar platform. IMO, it is not even suitable for a remote suburban station, much less a rail hub for downtown Minneapolis. It has absolutely no room for future expansion, other than extending the platform about 100 feet to perhaps to accomodate a 7 car train. There was plain and simply no competence involved in creating this disaster. Now the MinnDOT wants its future NLX trains from Duluth to terminate here?? And then there is the current disussion about having #7 & 8 stop here and use the Willmar line instead of the Staples subdivision which would leave the large city of St Cloud without any rail service. This would also involve upgrading 100 miles of FRA class 3 track (current speed limit 40 mph) to FRA class 4 track and please note that the rest of the line has a maximum speed of 60 mph. Those that think that these speed limits can be easily raised, please refer to my previous post concerning the 268 miles of track west of Minneapolis, that we have been trying to get the BNSF to raise to 79 mph, for the past 40 years with no luck so far. There are other problems with the Willmar route as well, including a lack of sidings, especially west of Morris. As for backing #7 & 8 in and out of this station over the 2+ plus miles including over 2 river bridges, Amtrak and the BNSF have said forget about it. Anyway, the very idea of this station serving any future needs as a big city passenger train hub is IMO, ridiculous. The only place that can serve all of the needs of a future passenger rail hub, IMO, is the Minneapolis Jct Wye area. This is the one and only location that can serve all of the future possible rail routes, without the need to back-up long distances. It's only one mile from old GN Station and it is served by a hi-frequency metro bus line that goes to the heart of the downtown. However, a new station here is most likely at least several years away, if ever. Meanwhile, Midway Station is the best we can do, for serving most of Minneapolis and the southwestern half of the Twin Cities metro area, now. SPUD and Fridley can handle the rest of the metro. If Midway is reopened, it will increase the ridership of 7 & 8 to the point where more equipment will be needed, some of which would be taken on and off at Midway, as it was done in the past. This work can only be done at Midway, by the Minn Comm RR. I believe the new top management at Amtrak could be persuaded to correct this past terrible mistake. The building is still in good condition and all it really needs is an attendant/security guard to make this work! Let's get more people to ride the Empire Builder!! Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson) CMStPnP, NP Eddie, Midland Mike and all: More thoughts on the Empire Builder stopping at Fridley and Midway: Please note that Seattle/Tacoma is the closest in metro size to the Twin Cities metro and has 5 stations serving its long distance trains. I'm only advocating for 3 stations for the Twin Cities metro. All of Amtak's long distance trains serve metros with 3 or more stations. This includes a total of at least 20 metro areas that have this service. Unfortunately, the Twin Cities (3rd largest metro in the Midwest) has only one, very inconveniently located station, SPUD, on the far eastern side of the metro. Since Amtrak hasn't done a thing for Minnesota since the 1970's, I think it's about time we ask them for a redress of this situation. Since there is plenty of padding in the current schedule and both Fridley and Midway can be used, as is, I see no reason not to correct this egregious situation. Midway is still a very viable station, with 3 passenger tracks and 2 stub tracks. I don't think that signalling the Minn Comm RR would be possible or worth the expense. The MNNR would vigorously object and with 5 severe curves on just 1+ mile of track, I see no point in attempting to do this. However, we could ask the MNNR to have their crews keep the main line switches properly alligned for the main track!! Tonight, #7 spent 20 minutes on the MNNR, was still by Fridley at 11:01pm and arrived St Cloud 37 minutes early!! As said in prev. posts, there's plenty of time for a stop at both Fridley and Midway. By the way, there have been phenomenal runs for #7 & 8 on the CP of late, with a total elapsed time of 7'05" between SPUD and CUS on several runs of #8; 7'18" elapsed on tonight's #7!! Now, if we could just get things fixed for #28 on the old SP&S (storm damage). Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
CMStPnP, NP Eddie, Midland Mike and all: More thoughts on the Empire Builder stopping at Fridley and Midway: Please note that Seattle/Tacoma is the closest in metro size to the Twin Cities metro and has 5 stations serving its long distance trains. I'm only advocating for 3 stations for the Twin Cities metro. All of Amtak's long distance trains serve metros with 3 or more stations. This includes a total of at least 20 metro areas that have this service. Unfortunately, the Twin Cities (3rd largest metro in the Midwest) has only one, very inconveniently located station, SPUD, on the far eastern side of the metro. Since Amtrak hasn't done a thing for Minnesota since the 1970's, I think it's about time we ask them for a redress of this situation. Since there is plenty of padding in the current schedule and both Fridley and Midway can be used, as is, I see no reason not to correct this egregious situation. Midway is still a very viable station, with 3 passenger tracks and 2 stub tracks. I don't think that signalling the Minn Comm RR would be possible or worth the expense. The MNNR would vigorously object and with 5 severe curves on just 1+ mile of track, I see no point in attempting to do this. However, we could ask the MNNR to have their crews keep the main line switches properly alligned for the main track!! Tonight, #7 spent 20 minutes on the MNNR, was still by Fridley at 11:01pm and arrived St Cloud 37 minutes early!! As said in prev. posts, there's plenty of time for a stop at both Fridley and Midway. By the way, there have been phenomenal runs for #7 & 8 on the CP of late, with a total elapsed time of 7'05" between SPUD and CUS on several runs of #8; 7'18" elapsed on tonight's #7!! Now, if we could just get things fixed for #28 on the old SP&S (storm damage). Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
RR Johnson I'm only advocating for 3 stations for the Twin Cities metro. All of Amtak's long distance trains serve metros with 3 or more stations.
Now we are up to three stations? Like I said before, good luck getting that done with one train a day. Also, good luck on getting MN to pay for it. If you disguise it as a new Social Program they will leap at the chance to spend money but for critical needs like Infrastructure? They are going to lean on the Feds and without a coherent rail corridor plan (meaning more than one train a day) at the ready the Feds are not going to listen to them.
You might have to wait for a few more city bridges to collapse due to old age first.
Cool the retoric and stick to one point, trying to have a conditional stop at the Fridley North Star station. Moving the EB to the Willmar line will not happen--not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar. Please refer to my prior posts about the 2MT CTC.
NP Eddie ALL: Cool the retoric and stick to one point, trying to have a conditional stop at the Fridley North Star station. Moving the EB to the Willmar line will not happen--not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar. Please refer to my prior posts about the 2MT CTC. Ed Burns
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.