VerMontanan NP Eddie The X-NP line does has larger cities that the Willmar line. St. Cloud has a university and Detroit Lakes garners passeners from the surrounding area. Ed: I didn't say that the route via Willmar "had larger cities" than route via St. Cloud. In fact, as I stated earlier, the Empire Builder itself proves that population does not equate to ridership being the most-ridden long distance train rather than the least. However, outside the St. Cloud metropolitan area, the Willmar (population 42,239) and Wahpeton-Breckenridge (population 22,897) micropolitan areas dwarf anything on the ex-NP route west of St. Cloud. And for clarification, it is only west of St. Cloud (Sauk Rapids) that is the ex-NP. Before the 1970 merger, the route between Sauk Rapids and Minneapolis was joint GN and NP, with each owning a track. NP Eddie First of all, Ed and I are retired professional railroaders and live in Minnesota. As infromation, I am a current professional railroader, and am happy to have been paying into YOUR Railroad Retirement for over 40 years. I don't live in Minnesota, but I've visited often and one of the areas I oversee in my job is the state of Minnesota.
NP Eddie The X-NP line does has larger cities that the Willmar line. St. Cloud has a university and Detroit Lakes garners passeners from the surrounding area.
The X-NP line does has larger cities that the Willmar line. St. Cloud has a university and Detroit Lakes garners passeners from the surrounding area.
NP Eddie First of all, Ed and I are retired professional railroaders and live in Minnesota.
Mark Meyer
RR Johnson As for the other points, it was the powerful Montana Senator and Senate Majority Leader Mike Mansfield, that overuled Mr Menk and got the North Coast Hiawatha started up in the first place and insisted that it follow the old NP route right out of Minneapolis
As for the other points, it was the powerful Montana Senator and Senate Majority Leader Mike Mansfield, that overuled Mr Menk and got the North Coast Hiawatha started up in the first place and insisted that it follow the old NP route right out of Minneapolis
Ed: I would ask you for documentation of this, because simply I do not believe this could be the case. As a native Montanan well aware of the situation in Montana at the time, I know that Mansfield only was interested in getting a train across the Southern part of the state. I sincerely doubt that he cared about the route in Minnesota. More logically, I think that the route through Staples was used because it was the one of very few segments where the ex-NP route was was faster than the ex-GN route traversed by the Empire Builder. This, along with the Empire Builder going via Grand Forks (longer running time) would best allow Amtrak trains 25 and 26 to be combined with the Empire Builder between Minneapolis and Spokane. (They began operating separately all the way to Chicago from Spokane in the fall of 1971, and all the way from Seattle to Chicago in 1973) . A way to cut running time for 25 and 26 was important because the ex-GN route, even operating via Grand Forks, was faster and would otherwise burden the Empire Builder with the slower Southern Montana train.
RR Johnson The Western Star only served St Cloud in the 1950's and in 1970 and early 1971 until Amtrak killed it. Throughout the 1960's it ran with the Empire Builder via Willmar.
Not true. The eastbound Western Star served St. Cloud from May 27, 1962 to February 15, 1968. (The westbound train operated via Willmar; during this period the westbound Red River operated through St. Cloud and its eastbound counterpart operated via Willmar to "even up" the service on both routes provided by the Western Star.) The eastbound Western Star then returned to the Willmar routing until Febuary 3, 1970, when both the westbound and eastbound trains began operating via St. Cloud. But again, you missed my overall point, which had nothing to do with the Western Star. Rather, it was to point out that just before the start of Amtrak, even with the North Coast Limited not stopping at St. Cloud, St. Cloud had two passenger trains daily (the Mainstreeeter and Western Star). So, even with two passenger trains serving St. Cloud, as well as all the other ridership for all the trains between St. Cloud and Fargo via both routes, Amtrak still chose the Willmar routing due to the higher existing ridership, just like with the rest of the route.
I certainly hope that some day Minneapolis will warrant its own station and it does not have to be at Target Field. But I believe that one on the west side of the river rather than the east (or north if you prefer) side would be preferred by potential patrons.
Mark and All:
First of all, Ed and I are retired professional railroaders and live in Minnesota. I must also add that Ed and I are very good friends!
Just stick to the facts and let's all try and get AMTRAK to have a conditional stop at the Fridley North Star station.
Ed Burns
VerMontanan RRJohnson: I wish you would reread my post. Nowhere did I state that we should hold out for a downtown Minneapolis and not make a suburban stop in the interim, in fact I specifically stated this should happen. My exact wording was, “A north suburban Minneapolis stop is a must, and is the most likely temporary solution to the situation created when Midway was discontinued.” You also missed the point about my suggestion about the Minneapolis stop. Yes, the current situation is flawed, but there are still many in Minnesota who think the new service from Duluth is going to terminate in downtown Minneapolis, and when this happens, something is going to change. My point simply was that when a different station situation occurs, the Empire Builder should be part of it. I disagree with your claim that “lobbying by top BN management to avoid any passenger trains being routed via Northtown do to the ongoing construction of a new hump yard” is a reason the first Amtrak Empire Builder was routed through Willmar. Had this been the case, 5 or so weeks after the inception of Amtrak when the North Coast Hiawatha was added as an experimental Amtrak route, it too would have run via Willmar instead of via Northtown as it did. Your statement about the pre-Amtrak North Coast Limited not stopping at St. Cloud, could have some validity with regard to ridership, though St. Cloud was also served by the Western Star. I always did think it was odd that train didn’t make a St. Cloud stop. It’s also true that Northern Pacific did chronically and historically provide inferior passenger train service to the Great Northern (it is thoroughly documented here at http://www.gngoat.org/GN-MILW-NP.pdf starting in the middle of the document) which has effected passenger service as we know it. But it’s also true that the ex-NP route had more and better other public transportation and a parallel interstate highway, which continues to be true today. So, given that reality of relatively poor ridership at St. Cloud, Staples, and Detroit Lakes today, at least the history of better passenger train service and higher ridership via Willmar is a known quantity and a solid basis for stating that route would provide patronage at least equal to what we have now. But most of all, staying on point, my post was simply to counter Ed’s statement that the Willmar routing has “not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar” which is simply historically and factually untrue. I think another reason that the Empire Builder should stop at Fridley or Coon Rapids or wherever is simply to show the public that there is interest in making Amtrak service more accessible, and the more this gets it “out there” for everyone to see, it can only make more aware of proposals for other service in the area, such as additional trains to places like Duluth and Chicago.
RRJohnson:
I wish you would reread my post. Nowhere did I state that we should hold out for a downtown Minneapolis and not make a suburban stop in the interim, in fact I specifically stated this should happen. My exact wording was, “A north suburban Minneapolis stop is a must, and is the most likely temporary solution to the situation created when Midway was discontinued.”
You also missed the point about my suggestion about the Minneapolis stop. Yes, the current situation is flawed, but there are still many in Minnesota who think the new service from Duluth is going to terminate in downtown Minneapolis, and when this happens, something is going to change. My point simply was that when a different station situation occurs, the Empire Builder should be part of it.
I disagree with your claim that “lobbying by top BN management to avoid any passenger trains being routed via Northtown do to the ongoing construction of a new hump yard” is a reason the first Amtrak Empire Builder was routed through Willmar. Had this been the case, 5 or so weeks after the inception of Amtrak when the North Coast Hiawatha was added as an experimental Amtrak route, it too would have run via Willmar instead of via Northtown as it did.
Your statement about the pre-Amtrak North Coast Limited not stopping at St. Cloud, could have some validity with regard to ridership, though St. Cloud was also served by the Western Star. I always did think it was odd that train didn’t make a St. Cloud stop. It’s also true that Northern Pacific did chronically and historically provide inferior passenger train service to the Great Northern (it is thoroughly documented here at http://www.gngoat.org/GN-MILW-NP.pdf starting in the middle of the document) which has effected passenger service as we know it. But it’s also true that the ex-NP route had more and better other public transportation and a parallel interstate highway, which continues to be true today. So, given that reality of relatively poor ridership at St. Cloud, Staples, and Detroit Lakes today, at least the history of better passenger train service and higher ridership via Willmar is a known quantity and a solid basis for stating that route would provide patronage at least equal to what we have now. But most of all, staying on point, my post was simply to counter Ed’s statement that the Willmar routing has “not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar” which is simply historically and factually untrue.
I think another reason that the Empire Builder should stop at Fridley or Coon Rapids or wherever is simply to show the public that there is interest in making Amtrak service more accessible, and the more this gets it “out there” for everyone to see, it can only make more aware of proposals for other service in the area, such as additional trains to places like Duluth and Chicago.
RR Johnson I still believe our best option for the present time, is to demand a stop for the Empire Builder at the Fridley Northstar Station, for all the reasons stated in previous posts. Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
You make a convincing case for Fridley, at least until a decent stop can be constructed in Minneapolis.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
VerMontanan NP Eddie ALL: Moving the EB to the Willmar line will not happen--not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar. Ed Burns Ed: If this wasn't the Empire Builder we're taking about, this statement might have merit, but since it is, it has none. In FY2016, the Empire Builder regained its status (that it previously held for 10 straight years 2004-2013) as Amtrak's most-ridden long distance passenger train stopping in many, as you say, "not enough towns big enough to support a train." At the start of Amtrak in 1971, Amtrak could have chosen any route for its lone Chicago-Seattle train. The Empire Builder was retained, but on a dramatically changed route. Chicago-Twin Cities shifted to the Milwaukee Road, Fargo-Minot shifted to the Grand Forks routing, and Spokane (actually Sandpoint) to Seattle shifted to a routing via Yakima. In all instances, the reason was due to greater exisiting ridership. And note however, that route through Willmar was initially retained, and that was because if higher ridership than the St. Cloud routings (routes via both Staples and Alexandria were options back then). The change to the St. Cloud routing in 1979 during the massive long-distance-trains cutback had more to do with Amtrak's "regional balance" decree (keeping part of one route, such as routing the Southwest Chief through Topeka when the Lone Star was dropped) than anything else. Again, on line population was the greatest determining factor, the Empire Builder would certainly have the most anemic ridership of all the long distance trains instead of the best. Clearly, there are other factors. Ridership at St. Cloud, Staples, and Detroit Lakes is hardly stellar. With a metro population of nearly 200,000, St. Cloud's FY2016 ridership was 11,457. Sure, the train times there are lousy, but they also are at Grand Forks with half the population, but Grand Forks draws in 20 percent more riders, too. In fact, St. Cloud's ridership is less than Wisconsin Dells, Tomah, La Crosse, Winona, Grand Forks, Minot, Williston, Havre, and Wenatchee, all cities ranging from smaller than to much smaller than the St. Cloud area in population. (So, too, are stations like Columbus, Glacier Park, and Whitefish, but they tap major tourist areas or larger-than-St. Cloud nearby cities.) Brainerd has a micropolitan area approaching 100,000 in population, which is probably split in using stops at St. Cloud and Staples, but the ridership at Staples (6,120) isn't much greater than at Detroit Lakes (5,290). When the Empire Builder operated via Willmar, the situation was much the same as it is now: Towns along the route had little access to alternative public transportation. The Willmar stopped tapped the Southwest Minnesota market, and there was good ridership to and from Breckenridge to the North Dakota State College of Science in adjacent Wahpeton. Morris was the stop for the University of Minnesota-Morris. Therefore, prior to 1971, it's fairly easy to see why the Willmar routing was chosen over either of the routings via St. Cloud. Given the mediocre-at-best ridership at existing Amtrak stations between St. Paul and Fargo, the lack of public transportation along the Willmar routing and no parallel 4-lane highway most of the way, I would challenge you for definitive proof that the Willmar route has "not enough towns big enough to support a train" compared to the current route. The reality is that ridership on the current routing west of St. Paul is not sufficiently significant to keep the train running there for that reason. The salient point is how to best serve Minneapolis given the albratross that is the current stop at SPUD. A north suburban Minneapolis stop is a must, and is the most likely temporary solution to the situation created when Midway was discontinued. But it does not address how to adequately serve downtown Minneapolis. I have complete doubt that anything will happen toward the start of passenger service between Duluth and Minneapolis in the next few years, but if it does eventually get off the ground, the Twin Cities destination is the Minneapolis downtown area. While I agree that Minneapolis has "painted itself into a corner" with the current situation, I don't believe that anything is unchangable. The fact remains that the current Target Field site needs to be modified to accept any more passenger trains, but be it trains from Duluth, Chicago, or the Empire Builder, it will have to be modified. If the occasion ever presents itself for the desired optimum solution, it will be to move the Empire Builder through downtown Minneapolis. Without doubt, increased ridership gained with a downtown Minneapolis stop - even if not a staffed station - would easily surpass any that only MAY be lost ending service to stations on the existing St. Cloud routing. Relatively speaking, the Willmar routing would not take a significant (again, using the term "relatively speaking") amount of money to get up to passenger train speeds. A suburb stop in idyllic Wayzata could also benefit ridership, and with most of the funding in place for the Willmar Bypass (a $50 million project to provide a direct connection from the Morris to Marshall subdvisions bypassing downtown Willmar) in place, current fluidity on the route can only increase. As for moving a crew base. Not a big deal. Amtrak wants to do that now for California Zephyr crews in Denver (to Lincoln). If the clock could be turned back and the Great Northern Station and Stone Arch Bridge were retained to host passenger trains, I would certainly favor the Empire Builder routing via Staples in the hope that it, being the fastest route, could be the catalyst for additional Twin Cities-Fargo-Grand Forks daytime passenger trains. But as the current desire by most in Minnesota is for additional trains from the Twin Cities to Chicago and Twin Cities to Twin Ports, the obvious focus will remain on downtown Minneapolis for a station site, and it is most logical and beneficial that when/if that time comes, the Empire Builder follow, and if that means a routing west from Minneapolis via Willmar that is what must happen.
NP Eddie ALL: Moving the EB to the Willmar line will not happen--not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar. Ed Burns
ALL:
Moving the EB to the Willmar line will not happen--not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar.
NP Eddie ALL: Cool the retoric and stick to one point, trying to have a conditional stop at the Fridley North Star station. Moving the EB to the Willmar line will not happen--not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar. Please refer to my prior posts about the 2MT CTC. Ed Burns
Cool the retoric and stick to one point, trying to have a conditional stop at the Fridley North Star station. Moving the EB to the Willmar line will not happen--not enough towns big enough to support a train and then you have the problem of getting the crews from St. Cloud to Willmar. Please refer to my prior posts about the 2MT CTC.
RR Johnson I'm only advocating for 3 stations for the Twin Cities metro. All of Amtak's long distance trains serve metros with 3 or more stations.
Now we are up to three stations? Like I said before, good luck getting that done with one train a day. Also, good luck on getting MN to pay for it. If you disguise it as a new Social Program they will leap at the chance to spend money but for critical needs like Infrastructure? They are going to lean on the Feds and without a coherent rail corridor plan (meaning more than one train a day) at the ready the Feds are not going to listen to them.
You might have to wait for a few more city bridges to collapse due to old age first.
RR Johnson RR Johnson VerMontanan There is no "work" routinely performed at Midway Station. Watering facilities are available at SPUD. The only reason the Empire Builder stops at Midways is if the train is to cut or add locomotives or cars, and occasionally for operating reasons (such as hand-throwning switches on the Minneseota Commercial Railroad), which is just part of the ridiculousness of this routing. But reality being what it is (unless you believe "alternate facts"), we're stuck with SPUD and the routing through the Twin Cities. That's why the biggest bang for the buck would be to get the current route signaled (to increase speed) and implement the suburban stop. Ultimately, the Empire Builder's Minneapolis stop needs to be Target Field and the train routed via Willmar. A "Minneapolis Junction" area stop is just too far from downtown and would require dedicated transit to it. The Target Field location has - and always will have - access to most of the Twin Cities' transit. Any stop short of this is just a stopgap measure short of what would be the best location in the Twin Cities. All of this of course would cost a lot of money, but anything short is will never allow Amtrak to be as palatable of a choice for patrons as when trains stopped at Great Northern Station. VerMontanan and all: There can never be a replacement for the magnificent late Great Northern Station of Minneapolis, J J Hills' Beaux-Arts masterpiece, both for its elegent beauty, superb design and function, and irreplacable location. The Target Field Station is a rude joke for a large city passenger station. It has 2 tracks serving a small platform and that is all that it can ever have, due to its suffocating location, deep in a canyon of new buildings, hemmed in next to a large new major league baseball stadium; the old historic Ford Motor Building, on one side and brand new apartment buildings on other side, and its tracks crammed next to the single track main line, (which operates as a shoo-fly to get past the stadium) and under several new bridges. It was not even built with restrooms or waiting rooms, other than the pathetic shacks on the Northstar platform. IMO, it is not even suitable for a remote suburban station, much less a rail hub for downtown Minneapolis. It has absolutely no room for future expansion, other than extending the platform about 100 feet to perhaps to accomodate a 7 car train. There was plain and simply no competence involved in creating this disaster. Now the MinnDOT wants its future NLX trains from Duluth to terminate here?? And then there is the current disussion about having #7 & 8 stop here and use the Willmar line instead of the Staples subdivision which would leave the large city of St Cloud without any rail service. This would also involve upgrading 100 miles of FRA class 3 track (current speed limit 40 mph) to FRA class 4 track and please note that the rest of the line has a maximum speed of 60 mph. Those that think that these speed limits can be easily raised, please refer to my previous post concerning the 268 miles of track west of Minneapolis, that we have been trying to get the BNSF to raise to 79 mph, for the past 40 years with no luck so far. There are other problems with the Willmar route as well, including a lack of sidings, especially west of Morris. As for backing #7 & 8 in and out of this station over the 2+ plus miles including over 2 river bridges, Amtrak and the BNSF have said forget about it. Anyway, the very idea of this station serving any future needs as a big city passenger train hub is IMO, ridiculous. The only place that can serve all of the needs of a future passenger rail hub, IMO, is the Minneapolis Jct Wye area. This is the one and only location that can serve all of the future possible rail routes, without the need to back-up long distances. It's only one mile from old GN Station and it is served by a hi-frequency metro bus line that goes to the heart of the downtown. However, a new station here is most likely at least several years away, if ever. Meanwhile, Midway Station is the best we can do, for serving most of Minneapolis and the southwestern half of the Twin Cities metro area, now. SPUD and Fridley can handle the rest of the metro. If Midway is reopened, it will increase the ridership of 7 & 8 to the point where more equipment will be needed, some of which would be taken on and off at Midway, as it was done in the past. This work can only be done at Midway, by the Minn Comm RR. I believe the new top management at Amtrak could be persuaded to correct this past terrible mistake. The building is still in good condition and all it really needs is an attendant/security guard to make this work! Let's get more people to ride the Empire Builder!! Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson) CMStPnP, NP Eddie, Midland Mike and all: More thoughts on the Empire Builder stopping at Fridley and Midway: Please note that Seattle/Tacoma is the closest in metro size to the Twin Cities metro and has 5 stations serving its long distance trains. I'm only advocating for 3 stations for the Twin Cities metro. All of Amtak's long distance trains serve metros with 3 or more stations. This includes a total of at least 20 metro areas that have this service. Unfortunately, the Twin Cities (3rd largest metro in the Midwest) has only one, very inconveniently located station, SPUD, on the far eastern side of the metro. Since Amtrak hasn't done a thing for Minnesota since the 1970's, I think it's about time we ask them for a redress of this situation. Since there is plenty of padding in the current schedule and both Fridley and Midway can be used, as is, I see no reason not to correct this egregious situation. Midway is still a very viable station, with 3 passenger tracks and 2 stub tracks. I don't think that signalling the Minn Comm RR would be possible or worth the expense. The MNNR would vigorously object and with 5 severe curves on just 1+ mile of track, I see no point in attempting to do this. However, we could ask the MNNR to have their crews keep the main line switches properly alligned for the main track!! Tonight, #7 spent 20 minutes on the MNNR, was still by Fridley at 11:01pm and arrived St Cloud 37 minutes early!! As said in prev. posts, there's plenty of time for a stop at both Fridley and Midway. By the way, there have been phenomenal runs for #7 & 8 on the CP of late, with a total elapsed time of 7'05" between SPUD and CUS on several runs of #8; 7'18" elapsed on tonight's #7!! Now, if we could just get things fixed for #28 on the old SP&S (storm damage). Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
RR Johnson VerMontanan There is no "work" routinely performed at Midway Station. Watering facilities are available at SPUD. The only reason the Empire Builder stops at Midways is if the train is to cut or add locomotives or cars, and occasionally for operating reasons (such as hand-throwning switches on the Minneseota Commercial Railroad), which is just part of the ridiculousness of this routing. But reality being what it is (unless you believe "alternate facts"), we're stuck with SPUD and the routing through the Twin Cities. That's why the biggest bang for the buck would be to get the current route signaled (to increase speed) and implement the suburban stop. Ultimately, the Empire Builder's Minneapolis stop needs to be Target Field and the train routed via Willmar. A "Minneapolis Junction" area stop is just too far from downtown and would require dedicated transit to it. The Target Field location has - and always will have - access to most of the Twin Cities' transit. Any stop short of this is just a stopgap measure short of what would be the best location in the Twin Cities. All of this of course would cost a lot of money, but anything short is will never allow Amtrak to be as palatable of a choice for patrons as when trains stopped at Great Northern Station. VerMontanan and all: There can never be a replacement for the magnificent late Great Northern Station of Minneapolis, J J Hills' Beaux-Arts masterpiece, both for its elegent beauty, superb design and function, and irreplacable location. The Target Field Station is a rude joke for a large city passenger station. It has 2 tracks serving a small platform and that is all that it can ever have, due to its suffocating location, deep in a canyon of new buildings, hemmed in next to a large new major league baseball stadium; the old historic Ford Motor Building, on one side and brand new apartment buildings on other side, and its tracks crammed next to the single track main line, (which operates as a shoo-fly to get past the stadium) and under several new bridges. It was not even built with restrooms or waiting rooms, other than the pathetic shacks on the Northstar platform. IMO, it is not even suitable for a remote suburban station, much less a rail hub for downtown Minneapolis. It has absolutely no room for future expansion, other than extending the platform about 100 feet to perhaps to accomodate a 7 car train. There was plain and simply no competence involved in creating this disaster. Now the MinnDOT wants its future NLX trains from Duluth to terminate here?? And then there is the current disussion about having #7 & 8 stop here and use the Willmar line instead of the Staples subdivision which would leave the large city of St Cloud without any rail service. This would also involve upgrading 100 miles of FRA class 3 track (current speed limit 40 mph) to FRA class 4 track and please note that the rest of the line has a maximum speed of 60 mph. Those that think that these speed limits can be easily raised, please refer to my previous post concerning the 268 miles of track west of Minneapolis, that we have been trying to get the BNSF to raise to 79 mph, for the past 40 years with no luck so far. There are other problems with the Willmar route as well, including a lack of sidings, especially west of Morris. As for backing #7 & 8 in and out of this station over the 2+ plus miles including over 2 river bridges, Amtrak and the BNSF have said forget about it. Anyway, the very idea of this station serving any future needs as a big city passenger train hub is IMO, ridiculous. The only place that can serve all of the needs of a future passenger rail hub, IMO, is the Minneapolis Jct Wye area. This is the one and only location that can serve all of the future possible rail routes, without the need to back-up long distances. It's only one mile from old GN Station and it is served by a hi-frequency metro bus line that goes to the heart of the downtown. However, a new station here is most likely at least several years away, if ever. Meanwhile, Midway Station is the best we can do, for serving most of Minneapolis and the southwestern half of the Twin Cities metro area, now. SPUD and Fridley can handle the rest of the metro. If Midway is reopened, it will increase the ridership of 7 & 8 to the point where more equipment will be needed, some of which would be taken on and off at Midway, as it was done in the past. This work can only be done at Midway, by the Minn Comm RR. I believe the new top management at Amtrak could be persuaded to correct this past terrible mistake. The building is still in good condition and all it really needs is an attendant/security guard to make this work! Let's get more people to ride the Empire Builder!! Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
VerMontanan There is no "work" routinely performed at Midway Station. Watering facilities are available at SPUD. The only reason the Empire Builder stops at Midways is if the train is to cut or add locomotives or cars, and occasionally for operating reasons (such as hand-throwning switches on the Minneseota Commercial Railroad), which is just part of the ridiculousness of this routing. But reality being what it is (unless you believe "alternate facts"), we're stuck with SPUD and the routing through the Twin Cities. That's why the biggest bang for the buck would be to get the current route signaled (to increase speed) and implement the suburban stop. Ultimately, the Empire Builder's Minneapolis stop needs to be Target Field and the train routed via Willmar. A "Minneapolis Junction" area stop is just too far from downtown and would require dedicated transit to it. The Target Field location has - and always will have - access to most of the Twin Cities' transit. Any stop short of this is just a stopgap measure short of what would be the best location in the Twin Cities. All of this of course would cost a lot of money, but anything short is will never allow Amtrak to be as palatable of a choice for patrons as when trains stopped at Great Northern Station.
There is no "work" routinely performed at Midway Station. Watering facilities are available at SPUD. The only reason the Empire Builder stops at Midways is if the train is to cut or add locomotives or cars, and occasionally for operating reasons (such as hand-throwning switches on the Minneseota Commercial Railroad), which is just part of the ridiculousness of this routing. But reality being what it is (unless you believe "alternate facts"), we're stuck with SPUD and the routing through the Twin Cities. That's why the biggest bang for the buck would be to get the current route signaled (to increase speed) and implement the suburban stop. Ultimately, the Empire Builder's Minneapolis stop needs to be Target Field and the train routed via Willmar. A "Minneapolis Junction" area stop is just too far from downtown and would require dedicated transit to it. The Target Field location has - and always will have - access to most of the Twin Cities' transit. Any stop short of this is just a stopgap measure short of what would be the best location in the Twin Cities. All of this of course would cost a lot of money, but anything short is will never allow Amtrak to be as palatable of a choice for patrons as when trains stopped at Great Northern Station.
VerMontanan and all: There can never be a replacement for the magnificent late Great Northern Station of Minneapolis, J J Hills' Beaux-Arts masterpiece, both for its elegent beauty, superb design and function, and irreplacable location. The Target Field Station is a rude joke for a large city passenger station. It has 2 tracks serving a small platform and that is all that it can ever have, due to its suffocating location, deep in a canyon of new buildings, hemmed in next to a large new major league baseball stadium; the old historic Ford Motor Building, on one side and brand new apartment buildings on other side, and its tracks crammed next to the single track main line, (which operates as a shoo-fly to get past the stadium) and under several new bridges. It was not even built with restrooms or waiting rooms, other than the pathetic shacks on the Northstar platform. IMO, it is not even suitable for a remote suburban station, much less a rail hub for downtown Minneapolis. It has absolutely no room for future expansion, other than extending the platform about 100 feet to perhaps to accomodate a 7 car train. There was plain and simply no competence involved in creating this disaster. Now the MinnDOT wants its future NLX trains from Duluth to terminate here?? And then there is the current disussion about having #7 & 8 stop here and use the Willmar line instead of the Staples subdivision which would leave the large city of St Cloud without any rail service. This would also involve upgrading 100 miles of FRA class 3 track (current speed limit 40 mph) to FRA class 4 track and please note that the rest of the line has a maximum speed of 60 mph. Those that think that these speed limits can be easily raised, please refer to my previous post concerning the 268 miles of track west of Minneapolis, that we have been trying to get the BNSF to raise to 79 mph, for the past 40 years with no luck so far. There are other problems with the Willmar route as well, including a lack of sidings, especially west of Morris. As for backing #7 & 8 in and out of this station over the 2+ plus miles including over 2 river bridges, Amtrak and the BNSF have said forget about it. Anyway, the very idea of this station serving any future needs as a big city passenger train hub is IMO, ridiculous. The only place that can serve all of the needs of a future passenger rail hub, IMO, is the Minneapolis Jct Wye area. This is the one and only location that can serve all of the future possible rail routes, without the need to back-up long distances. It's only one mile from old GN Station and it is served by a hi-frequency metro bus line that goes to the heart of the downtown. However, a new station here is most likely at least several years away, if ever. Meanwhile, Midway Station is the best we can do, for serving most of Minneapolis and the southwestern half of the Twin Cities metro area, now. SPUD and Fridley can handle the rest of the metro. If Midway is reopened, it will increase the ridership of 7 & 8 to the point where more equipment will be needed, some of which would be taken on and off at Midway, as it was done in the past. This work can only be done at Midway, by the Minn Comm RR. I believe the new top management at Amtrak could be persuaded to correct this past terrible mistake. The building is still in good condition and all it really needs is an attendant/security guard to make this work! Let's get more people to ride the Empire Builder!! Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
CMStPnP, NP Eddie, Midland Mike and all: More thoughts on the Empire Builder stopping at Fridley and Midway: Please note that Seattle/Tacoma is the closest in metro size to the Twin Cities metro and has 5 stations serving its long distance trains. I'm only advocating for 3 stations for the Twin Cities metro. All of Amtak's long distance trains serve metros with 3 or more stations. This includes a total of at least 20 metro areas that have this service. Unfortunately, the Twin Cities (3rd largest metro in the Midwest) has only one, very inconveniently located station, SPUD, on the far eastern side of the metro. Since Amtrak hasn't done a thing for Minnesota since the 1970's, I think it's about time we ask them for a redress of this situation. Since there is plenty of padding in the current schedule and both Fridley and Midway can be used, as is, I see no reason not to correct this egregious situation. Midway is still a very viable station, with 3 passenger tracks and 2 stub tracks. I don't think that signalling the Minn Comm RR would be possible or worth the expense. The MNNR would vigorously object and with 5 severe curves on just 1+ mile of track, I see no point in attempting to do this. However, we could ask the MNNR to have their crews keep the main line switches properly alligned for the main track!! Tonight, #7 spent 20 minutes on the MNNR, was still by Fridley at 11:01pm and arrived St Cloud 37 minutes early!! As said in prev. posts, there's plenty of time for a stop at both Fridley and Midway. By the way, there have been phenomenal runs for #7 & 8 on the CP of late, with a total elapsed time of 7'05" between SPUD and CUS on several runs of #8; 7'18" elapsed on tonight's #7!! Now, if we could just get things fixed for #28 on the old SP&S (storm damage). Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
It sounds like adding stops at both Midway and Fridley would be too much. Since coaches are added/cut off for heavier MSP-CHI traffic (at Midway?) a stop on the east side of Minneapolis at Midway seems to make the most sense for the interim.
I agree with my good friend Ed Johnson that a Fridley, MN stop (probably conditional) stop is a good idea for the northern suburbs. The only North Star platform is on Track 2. Then the train could continue on Track 2 to the station stop and crew change point of St. Cloud. The entire line is two MT CTC so moving from Track 2 to Track 1 and back to Track 2 is an operating consideration. I don't feel that Midway (old Amtrak) station is viable or practical.
Asking for passenger stops both at Midway and Fridley strikes me as a bridge too far. Could the work that is now done at Midway be moved to Fridley? Just looking at the location on Google Earth, it appears that with the addition of a few feet of track and a switch a place would be created to store cars for the run to Chicago.
RR Johnson CMStPnP Well on the MN GOP. I imagine it runs like all political parties and is influenced by grass roots political support. Which I might add exists strongly in Wisconsin for Chicago to Milwaukee trains but is absent in Minnesota for a lot of their rail plans. Secondly, I eagerly await the day when Minnesota opens it's wallet and funds an Amtrak train. It's been several decades since that has happened and I think Wisconsin's freight and passenger rail subsidy program is light years ahead of Minnesota in planning and expenditure. Actually, the Chicago to Milwaukee Corridor was already in operation at beginning of Amtrak as a gift from the Milwaukee Road, ultimately to the states of Illinois and Wisconsin. This is hardly the situation we had in Minnesota on May 1, 1971 when we were left with just one train, the Empire Builder. I suppose if Minnesota had a corridor like this from the start, we would have a rowdy fan club for it, too. Anyway, over the last 45 years, I don't see where either state has set the world on fire. They've increased the Hiawatha frequencies, while we have built, both the Northstar Commuter Line, and 2 LRT lines from scratch. Now, we have the green light from the Feds to extend both lines, and the necessary funding to do so. Now, how much new passenger rail has Wisconsin built since 1971?? Oh that's right, they're still working on their streetcar line (how quaint) but otherwise it's zero. I'm sorry if I have to introduce facts into the picture, but what else can I do. You can make all the big plans you want, but where are the results?? By the way, aren't we off the subject of this post a wee bit??: Getting the Empire Builder to stop near Minneapolis? I'm just not interested in comparing Minnesota to anyone else. Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
CMStPnP Well on the MN GOP. I imagine it runs like all political parties and is influenced by grass roots political support. Which I might add exists strongly in Wisconsin for Chicago to Milwaukee trains but is absent in Minnesota for a lot of their rail plans. Secondly, I eagerly await the day when Minnesota opens it's wallet and funds an Amtrak train. It's been several decades since that has happened and I think Wisconsin's freight and passenger rail subsidy program is light years ahead of Minnesota in planning and expenditure.
Well on the MN GOP. I imagine it runs like all political parties and is influenced by grass roots political support. Which I might add exists strongly in Wisconsin for Chicago to Milwaukee trains but is absent in Minnesota for a lot of their rail plans.
Secondly, I eagerly await the day when Minnesota opens it's wallet and funds an Amtrak train. It's been several decades since that has happened and I think Wisconsin's freight and passenger rail subsidy program is light years ahead of Minnesota in planning and expenditure.
Actually, the Chicago to Milwaukee Corridor was already in operation at beginning of Amtrak as a gift from the Milwaukee Road, ultimately to the states of Illinois and Wisconsin. This is hardly the situation we had in Minnesota on May 1, 1971 when we were left with just one train, the Empire Builder. I suppose if Minnesota had a corridor like this from the start, we would have a rowdy fan club for it, too. Anyway, over the last 45 years, I don't see where either state has set the world on fire. They've increased the Hiawatha frequencies, while we have built, both the Northstar Commuter Line, and 2 LRT lines from scratch. Now, we have the green light from the Feds to extend both lines, and the necessary funding to do so. Now, how much new passenger rail has Wisconsin built since 1971?? Oh that's right, they're still working on their streetcar line (how quaint) but otherwise it's zero. I'm sorry if I have to introduce facts into the picture, but what else can I do. You can make all the big plans you want, but where are the results?? By the way, aren't we off the subject of this post a wee bit??: Getting the Empire Builder to stop near Minneapolis? I'm just not interested in comparing Minnesota to anyone else. Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)
Two words: Walker. Talgo.
CMStPnP Dakguy201 I have used the downtown Milwaukee station at least four times and Mitchell Airport station twice. In both cases, I was impressed. Downtown in particular compares very favorably with other regional rail passenger facilities such as St. Louis. Wisconsin seems to have abandoned dreams of the near impossible (HSR) is favor of making achieveable incremental improvements to the existing system. Good for them! HSR to Madison and Twin Cities is still in the plan. They did not like Obama's terms which the State of Illinois is going to pay for soon when all that Fed money turns into a loan from a grant at the end of 2017. Unless they get the Feds to change the terms before then or are up and running at 110 mph by then on the whole Corridor. Allegedly, Milwaukee to Green Bay via Fond Du Lac and Oshkosh is also in the cards at some point but I do not see that happening with only one rail line left unless they relay most of the torn up C&NW.
Dakguy201 I have used the downtown Milwaukee station at least four times and Mitchell Airport station twice. In both cases, I was impressed. Downtown in particular compares very favorably with other regional rail passenger facilities such as St. Louis. Wisconsin seems to have abandoned dreams of the near impossible (HSR) is favor of making achieveable incremental improvements to the existing system. Good for them!
I have used the downtown Milwaukee station at least four times and Mitchell Airport station twice. In both cases, I was impressed. Downtown in particular compares very favorably with other regional rail passenger facilities such as St. Louis. Wisconsin seems to have abandoned dreams of the near impossible (HSR) is favor of making achieveable incremental improvements to the existing system. Good for them!
HSR to Madison and Twin Cities is still in the plan. They did not like Obama's terms which the State of Illinois is going to pay for soon when all that Fed money turns into a loan from a grant at the end of 2017. Unless they get the Feds to change the terms before then or are up and running at 110 mph by then on the whole Corridor.
Allegedly, Milwaukee to Green Bay via Fond Du Lac and Oshkosh is also in the cards at some point but I do not see that happening with only one rail line left unless they relay most of the torn up C&NW.
schlimmHow do you figure that? Other than planning/adding another train to Chicago (jointly with IDOT), what has WI done except waste millions to cancel the train to Madison?
Pretty sure it is a goal of three more RT Freuencies to Chicago #1. Wisconsin saved a lot of money cancelling the HSR project.
Wisconsin paid for a large portion of the Milwaukee Depot cost in 1965 then rehabbed recently making it Intermodal. Most of the Amtrak Depots across Wisconsin have been rehabbed or built with State funds (is that the case in MN?).
Lets compare Milwaukee with SPUD. Milwaukee 5 tracks and accompanying platforms compared to two tracks at SPUD. Two tracks for reserve cars or private cars for a total of 7 tracks. Soon to be 11 RT passenger frequencies between Milwaukee and Chicago compared with the Twin Cities one RT to Chicago. Haven't counted the frieght train movements through the Milwaukee Depot but they up the count quite a bit. Still plenty of platform capacity to add new trains in Milwaukee. The station needs a little expansion but the plan is to convert the huge Milwaukee Post Office next door to retail space and if they need more Depot space there they can use space in that building or expand to the second floor of the Milwaukee Depot and knock down the wall seperating the 2nd floor from the passenger over the tracks walkways.
Wisconsin has spent money replacing the jointed rail with welded rail between Milwaukee and the Metra service border and intends a speed upgrade at some point to 90 mph. Defintely Wisconsin needs to work on Metra getting it's damn trains out of the way as far as using crossover tracks and generally the choke point at Rondout but that is already a future agenda item.
Where does MN see it's next rail corridor. Not necessarily to Chicago but instead to Duluth? Really? What about Twin Cities to Kansas City via Des Moines (I only put that in to read in the not too distant future the CAN'T BE DONE comments, line at CAPACITY statements, which are entertaining to read at times). A connection to Kansas City over the former C&NW spine line or some other route would potentially expand the choices of Twin City travelers to include a shorter and faster route to Des Moines, LA, KC and St. Louis. Open up potential destinations in OK and TX with the new Amtrak thruway connection at Newton (which will probably see a replacement with a connecting train before MN gets around to funding anything). Seems to me that expansion South to KC would make more sense for Twin City passengers..........is that even on the future 10-20 year plan? Nope.
As for the new Western Twin Cities station. I don't see it happening without heavy state intervention by MN. Amtrak does not like unstaffed stations for LD trains, especially in a major metro area. I suspect it's a percieved security or crime issue. Corridor trains another matter but MN isn't talking about a corridor here. They really need to invest more in SPUD rail access and train capacity as a higher priority.
So I view this mostly as dreamland. You can dream but it will probably never happen with just one LD train and nothing in the plans for anytime in the forseeable future. Nothing wrong with dreaming or talking about it but that is as far as it will go.
As for comparing the Twin Cities to Dallas - Fort Worth. No comparison in distance between the two or in population density. No the two city pairs are NOT exactly the same. Quite a difference between the two. Also Fort Worth has two active downtown Passenger stations. One is ex-T&P and looks very similar to Michigan Central Station in Detroit (but maintained a little better) the other is the new Fort Worth Intermodal Station where most of the City bus routes stop along with Greyhound. Amtrak does not serve T&P station in Fort Worth but instead runs right by it. TRE allows cross platform connections to Amtrak at both Fort Worth Intermodal and in Dallas. So Amtrak can skip the suburban stations and operate as a express train instead of a milk run.
If you open a station at Fridley or Midway that may overload with passengers the Builder MSP - CHI. With a possible pending implosion at Nippon (NS) the availability of rolling stock may become very tight. Horizons are not going to be available to fill in ?
Here is another way to look at the Empire Builder and how it serves the Twin Cities metro area:
I'm leaving out Miami and New York, where I know there are suburban stops (e.g. Yonkers, Fort Lauderdale, etc.). If the Coast Starlight can stop in Simi Valley, and the Empire Builder in Edmonds and Vancouver, then why can't the Empire Builder also stop in Fridley or somewhere representing the western half of the Twin Cities metro area?
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