Accidents are more often attributed to human error. One thing is certain, a system needs to be developed in modern passenger trains that can over ride the possibility of human error and stop, deter or otherwise prevent the accident from occurring.
There are safe guards built into modern locomotives, but the locomotive itself needs to have the "brains" if you will, to predict such situations like, a speed that is far too excessive for an upcoming curve. In the 21st century, such a system needs to be in all locomotives.
Humans are only capable of doing "X" amount of task within a given moment of time. A smart locomotive can, at the very least, compliment the engineers abilities to run his locomotive with greater accuracy and with superior safety. Everyone knows that on control panels there is a button type switch that the engineer needs to push every so many times when other controls have not been used to let the locomotive know, hey I'm alive, but is this enough?
This particular Amtrak train had a fairly new locomotive heading it. The engineer was very familiar with the locomotive. He had made this run numerous times. The weather and track conditions were optimal for a standard run. Yet, the train left the tracks. Nothing short of a smart locomotive would have prevented this tragedy from occurring.
If an engineer is somehow incapacitated, it is the locomotive that must be able to come to a complete safe stop. Even in extreme conditions, a smart locomotive can predict and actually perform calculations at rates so rapid that no one would ever even known there was a problem. I believe such a system must be incorporated in all locomotives being used to transport passengers and goods. There are just too many uncertain situations that humans cannot react to quick enough to prevent these accidents from happening. Like, for example, a person throwing a rock at a locomotive and the rock just happens to enter a window and strike the engineer and at a moment when critical decisions are to be made. Like speed adjustments for a curve for example. A smart locomotive would back the engineer up by taking the correct actions thereby eliminating unnecessary risk to life and property. Imagine if this had been a freight train consist of highly explosive chemicals and it derailed in a very highly populated area. The chemicals, so lethal, they kill almost immediately.
Such tragedies can be avoided by implementing smart locomotive technologies. Allowing the locomotive to assist the engineer in ways that may prevent what occurred last year.
By the way, I know that there are systems incorporated in modern locomotives which can allow for remote control of a locomotive should it become clear that the engineer is not at the controls. However, what I am suggesting is that the locomotive itself have technologies that allow it to predict certain situations, such as a curve coming up and the speed needs to be dropped to allow the train to make the curve.
By the way, I know that there are systems incorporated in modern locomotives which can allow for remote control of a locomotive should it become clear that the engineer is not at the controls. However, what I am preposition is that the locomotive itself have technologies that allow it to predict certain situations, such as a curve coming up and the speed needs to be dropped to allow the train to make the curve.
MrLynn groomer man We don't know what happened. Many have said that retroactive memory loss can occur after a traumatic event, especially a blow to the head, which we know the engineer experienced. The NYT article last week suggested another explanation for the wreck, namely situational disorientation or confusion, i.e. the engineer not recognizing his location. Both that and the memory loss could have happened. Most likely we won't know unless Mr. Bostian recovers his memory. /Mr Lynn
groomer man
We don't know what happened. Many have said that retroactive memory loss can occur after a traumatic event, especially a blow to the head, which we know the engineer experienced.
The NYT article last week suggested another explanation for the wreck, namely situational disorientation or confusion, i.e. the engineer not recognizing his location. Both that and the memory loss could have happened. Most likely we won't know unless Mr. Bostian recovers his memory.
/Mr Lynn
The only time we will ever know is when technology is developed that will allow a device to plug into a individual and interrogate all the synapses of the brain and extract all the information those synapses contain. Don't hold your breath. [/sarcasm]
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
groomer manPersonally that ' memory loss' thing is bs. It's just someone trying to get out of admitting they screwed up and dealing with the consequences
samfp1943Individual reactions to stimulus can be violent, at times, and then sudued, depending on the circumstances one can find themselves in.
My son was a firefighter in a community East of Memphis, I've seen them so busy under unusual circumstances (weather) the crew chose to sleep in turnouts in their truck.
I recall reading once that boxers were sometimes known to be able to take a "power nap" before a match.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 I was looking through an older issue of Trains or Classic Trains the other day and ran across the story of an engineer who was running a freight, at speed, and apparently asleep. Nonetheless, according to the author of the story, he never missed a crossing. He'd wake, blow for the crossing, and be out again...
I was looking through an older issue of Trains or Classic Trains the other day and ran across the story of an engineer who was running a freight, at speed, and apparently asleep. Nonetheless, according to the author of the story, he never missed a crossing. He'd wake, blow for the crossing, and be out again...
I donknow,Larry (tree68): The human brain is quite amazing at times! 20+ years OTR taught me how to 'sleep' in many uncomfortable conditions. Individual reactions to stimulus can be violent, at times, and then sudued, depending on the circumstances one can find themselves in.
My son was a firefighter in a community East of Memphis, I've seen them so busy under unusual circumstances (weather) the crew chose to sleep in turnouts in their truck. Then go to a scene, and pile out looking like zombies, but quickly able to react, and do their jobs. with precision. Amazing!
wanswheel Sam, I'm doubting Bostian was relaxed enough to fall asleep, because he seems to have been highly stimulated by the SEPTA train incident in both interviews.
Sam, I'm doubting Bostian was relaxed enough to fall asleep, because he seems to have been highly stimulated by the SEPTA train incident in both interviews.
Mike(Wanswheel)l: My own personal experience is that a microsleep is a result of what some refer to as a 'sleep debt', it can be caused by repetive conditons(boring activity). (ie): Long hours of driving in low traffic, or night-time conditions,( simply, driving in the rain with the wipers creating a monotenous motion in the vision field); even driving into a sunrise or even low setting sun will do it for me.
Regardless, the MicroSleep is an unconscious-level perception in the individual's brain; coupled with that individual's sleep debt. Whatever, the'tool'( be it a microsleep, or a 'flench' motion, a brain chooses to use to 'protect the individual, and to correct the then current problem/deficit(?) present with that particular individual. All seems to function in a sub-conscious level in the affected individual.
I don't think that microsleeps require being relaxed. My mother voluntarily quit driving because she was experiencing something along that line. She was riding with me one time and announced that it had just happened - a complete "blackout" even though her eyes were open...
Another term that probably fits the description (and may be the same thing) is being "zoned out."
I think many of us have experienced it - suddenly realizing that we don't recall having passed a certain familiar landmark, even though we know that we had to have done so to get where we are...
wanswheel petitnj NTSB Report Bostian interview, May 15 http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=436072&docketID=58167&mkey=91159 “Unfortunately, the last memory I have on the way back is approaching and passing the platforms in North Philadelphia. I remember turning on the bell, and the next thing that I remember is when I came to my senses I was standing up in the locomotive cab after the accident.” Bostian interview, Nov. 10 http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=436074&docketID=58167&mkey=91159 “The memory I think I may have from that night was that I came out of the 65 mile an hour curve. I pushed the throttle forward to accelerate my train. And as I approached 70 miles an hour, I have a memory I backed off the throttle by mistake because I was targeting 70 miles an hour instead of 80 miles an hour. And as I approached 70 miles an hour, I have a memory that I took action to bring the train up to 70 miles an hour. And I have a memory that I realized my mistake, that I should have been operating at 80 miles an hour. And that I pushed the throttle forward in order to accelerate from 70 to 80. And I don't remember anything from that point until after the train was already in the curve. And again, with that memory of bringing the train to 70, realizing a mistake and then making an attempt to bring the train from 70 to 80. There's a very good possibility that could have occurred on a previous trip because that sort of mistake is something that could have happened on any trip. So I don't know. I can't tell you with accuracy, with certainty that that was on the night of the accident. But in my mind, that's what I believe. That's when I believe that memory was from. As I said, once I pushed the throttle forward in an attempt to bring the train up to 80 miles an hour, I don't have any other memories until after the train was already in the curve. And the memory that happened from that point was, the memory from there is very vague. The only word, and I hesitate to use the word dream-like because it sounds like I was asleep and I don't believe that I was asleep at all. But kind of a very foggy memory as in I don't have, the memory doesn't includes much visual memory. I don't remember hearing much. It was more of a feeling. I remember feeling my body lurch to the right, towards the right side of the engine. I remember feeling as though I was going too fast around a curve. In response to that feeling, I put the train brake on, made about a ten pound application of the brake. On a normal operating day, that would be my normal response to slowing down the train for a normal speed reduction. Would be to put a ten pound application of the brake on, give it about maybe five or ten seconds for the brakes to apply. And then apply the brakes further to make a smooth brake application for comfortable train handling. Very soon -- this again, I don't know if this memory is accurate. But my memory is, very quickly after I made that ten pound reduction, I realized from the force on my body, I realized that this is something that's very serious and I need to bring down the train speed quickly. And so, almost immediately after I made that ten pound reduction, I went to full service on the brakes which would be, you know, I need to slow down this train quickly, right now. At some point after I made that reduction of the brake, from my memory, I felt a sensation of the fireman's side of the locomotive lifting up. In other words, the train felt, the engine felt as though it were tilting over. But I remember taking a few seconds -- I say seconds, I don't mean that literally. I don't know how long it physically took me to realize. But it felt like it took some amount of time for me to realize the sensation, put together that the sensation of the fireman's side of the engine tilting up really meant that the train engine was tilting over. And that's when I realized that it wasn't that the train was going somewhat fast around the curve. The train was going significantly fast around the curve. And that's when I put the train into emergency."
petitnj NTSB Report
NTSB Report
Bostian interview, May 15
http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=436072&docketID=58167&mkey=91159
“Unfortunately, the last memory I have on the way back is approaching and passing the platforms in North Philadelphia. I remember turning on the bell, and the next thing that I remember is when I came to my senses I was standing up in the locomotive cab after the accident.”
Thanks, Mike (wanswheel) for the informative links: In the first link Engineer Bastian seems to perfectly describe what used to be referred to as a "MicroNap", now referred to as a " MicroSleep".
See partial description here: "...Microsleeps are brief, unintended episodes of loss of attention associated with events such as blank stare, head snapping, and prolonged eye closure which may occur when a person is fatigued but trying to stay awake to perform a monotonous task like driving a car or watching a computer screen. These are potentially among the most dangerous consequences of insomnia.
Microsleep episodes last from a few seconds to two minutes, and often the person is not aware that a microsleep has occurred. In fact, microsleeps often occur when a person's eyes are open. While in a microsleep, a person fails to respond to outside information. A person will not see a red signal light or notice that the road has taken a curve, which is why this phenomenon is of particular interest to people who study drowsy driving. During a microsleep, a pilot might not be aware of flashing alarm lights in the cockpit..."
This description (partial) is from this source @ http://www.sleepdex.org/microsleep.htm
Before retiring from Tucking ( transportation safety) The explanations for what were then referred to as micro naps was just being discussed and efforts to research it were just getting to be funded. It was then thought that it was a rational explanation for incidents of trucks rear-ending other vehicles which may or may not have been stopped in travel lanes; as well as incidents that had been described as 'inattentive driving'.
That is an amazing interview from 11/10. I am surprised to see it in the report.
In a recent post by David Schanoes, he blasted the NYT for being too dramatic in the synopsis of the wreck a few days earlier than this report. Yet the above interview paints a very dramatic picture.
Reading through the reports, does anyone see any new information that was relevant to the accident? It looks like the engineer lost awareness for some time before realizing he entered the slow order. Lots of details but no useful information.
WizlishThe big problem here is that anything involving Bostian's mental state is basically the most extreme sort of speculation. We can't possibly 'know', and I suspect the NTSB may not be able to 'know' either.
We certainly cannot know. The investigators, if able to examine Bostian with appropriate experts, might be able to make some more knowledgeable conclusions.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
There is another piece of data that would 'corroborate' any evidence from the recorders, a piece of information which I continue to think is more significant as evidence of a 'thinking' state. (Evidence of brake and throttle actuation isn't exactly proof of 'consciousness', as I distinctly recall from the history of 'sleepy' crew behavior we've run through in various threads...)
Remember the witness testimony of the series of staccato horn bursts that took place immediately before the crash? I do not think those came from any 'work crew' or switching vehicles; that was the engineer of 188 warning anyone that the juggernaut was off the rails...
Paul of Covington I think schlimm might be able to help us on this, but it is my understanding that memory loss leading up to a traumatic event is not unusual.
I think schlimm has in fact commented on this in one of the previous threads. Google 'retrograde amnesia' for some independent corroboration.
Not an unusual event in a combination of physical and emotional trauma, I think. On the other hand, I believe there are other mechanisms (again, which schlimm is the best qualified here to comment on) like primacy, latency, and recency, which might tend to make some aspects of a traumatic experience more, rather than less, memorable for recall.
The big problem here is that anything involving Bostian's mental state is basically the most extreme sort of speculation. We can't possibly 'know', and I suspect the NTSB may not be able to 'know' either. It's likewise speculation to muse about how the memory loss is going to be treated or handled in the various official outcomes, including what a future career with Amtrak would involve...
Norm48327 Euclid I expect tomorrow’s report to declare the following with 100% certainty: Posters expecting earth-shattering revelations from the preliminary report are likely to be disappointed.
Euclid I expect tomorrow’s report to declare the following with 100% certainty:
Posters expecting earth-shattering revelations from the preliminary report are likely to be disappointed.
1) Rocks being thrown at the train.
2) Gunshots being fired at the train.
3) The windshield damage being caused by rocks.
4) The windshield damage being caused by gunshots.
5) The report of hearing a radio transmission from the engineer saying that his locomotive had been hit by rocks.
tdmidgetIt is true that the driver of the car in which Dianna died had no memory of it but that is because he was dead.
DOH! Whoda thunk?
Norm
EuclidI expect tomorrow’s report to declare the following with 100% certainty:
OK, it appears my old mind mis-remembered, so I did a little checking. It was bodyguard Trevor Rees-Jones that survived the wreck, not the driver. He suffered serious head injuries and didn't recall what happened.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
There was no hole in the windshield.
It is true that the driver of the car in which Dianna died had no memory of it but that is because he was dead.
Euclid Leo_Ames What's to explain about his memory loss? The reason why it happened, when it began, and how it affected the engineer's actions during its existence, if it began prior to the accident.
Leo_Ames What's to explain about his memory loss?
What's to explain about his memory loss?
The reason why it happened, when it began, and how it affected the engineer's actions during its existence, if it began prior to the accident.
I think Schlimm might be able to help us on this, but it is my understanding that memory loss leading up to a traumatic event is not unusual. Remember the crash that killed Princess Di? As I recall, the driver in that case also had no memory of events leading up to the accident.
Somewhere I saw or heard that the brain works with a sort of temporary memory for immediate functions and takes some time to process and sort out what it will store permanently. In the case of a traumatic event, this process is interrupted and the last events never get stored permanently. Anyway, that's my un-expert way of thinking of it.
ndbprrThere is speculation that the hole in the windshield was from a thrown rock that hit his head causing the black out.
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