I think the fec did the home work for the need for rail service in south Florida at least for higher speed service. Perhaps you have some research that proves otherwise.
Perhaps the solution is to reschedule the City of New Orleans for a 4 PM departure out of Chicago, after all it makes no sense for the train leaving Chicago with a dining car to not travel during dinner time, then flip the regional schedule to the 8 PM departure slot held by the CONO. With this Memphis goes to a setout sleeper as 6 AM ish is not reasonable for a large city even on the existing schedule much less at 2 AM.
What does this minor change in departure times gain?
1. The ability to use two trainsets instead of three with a same day equipment turn in New Orleans, so now the trains can run longer, yielding a denser revenue per trainmile which would combine with a declining Average Cost curve with respect to consist length to lead to better financial performance. Additionally, OBS cost efficiency increases with the same day turns in New Orleans.
2. The ability to split a section off at Jackson, MS for Mobile, AL and connecting on to Pensacola, FL, with through car or otherwise. This also would add to revenue density of the main segment and perhaps allow for a St. Louis River Cities connection again. Now a pre-lunch arrival is made on the growing Gulf Coast from daytime pickups in the midwest, continuing on to the Florida panhandle in a daytime distribution mode.
3. Then a morning day train out of New Orleans could connect with the split section at Mobile for ongoing eastern travel. The daytime train would probably only get to Jacksonville, FL before evening or even turn up toward Montgomery, creating a "X" of routes around Mobile. A map will be posted soon.
Bill ,Amtrak original Florida sunset train was Miami to LA. The old gulf wind ran Nola to Jacksonville fl. How ever she tied up at the old Jacksonville union terminal. Amtrak current station is a one platform two track station with a southbound facing stub track. Their are no servicing facilities other than a water hose. Don't know if it would be work as a terminal.
ROBERT WILLISON Route from mia to Nola includes all of the major populations centers of in south Florida . it would connect them to the resort areas of Orlando, the state Capitol in Tallahassee, with new Orleans, casinos on the gulf and the beaches in the pan handle. Pretty good chunk of Florida. With the some marketing and time the route could be developed. Probably more viable than the coast to coast option.
Route from mia to Nola includes all of the major populations centers of in south Florida . it would connect them to the resort areas of Orlando, the state Capitol in Tallahassee, with new Orleans, casinos on the gulf and the beaches in the pan handle. Pretty good chunk of Florida. With the some marketing and time the route could be developed. Probably more viable than the coast to coast option.
Most of the traffic is in FL; secondarily some between NOLA and Mobile. Show us market research that shows current heavy air traffic between Mobile and Florida points. Or NOLA and Miami? Or Gulfport and Tallahassee? There could be two trains, one NOLA to Mobile, one in FL, although the FEC HSR train will preempt much of that need.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Is there a lot of travel from MIA or ORL to NOLA and vv?
A New Orleans-Miami train is possible by having the proposed new service interchange thru cars at Jacksonville with the SILVER METEORS.
Living down in south Florida during the Amtrak sunset era, it was sure great pacing her trek, running parallel to I 95. But trying to run the train efficiently, over the entire 3000 plus trip was a operational disaster.
Time keeping was more than problematic. In an effort to address the issue, it was cut back to orlando. The train was then pulled back to Amtrak auto train terminal ( not a short trip ) for servicing.
The cut back did nothing to address the on going time keeping issues. It did cut the train off from the largest population centers in florida, Miami, ft Lauderdale, Boca raton and west palm beach. It equates to cutting the lake shore ltd back to Albany instead of NYC to save time.
I can fully understand why Amtrak is dragging its feet on the reinstatement of the train, it makes no sense to.
Instead as I have stated before, bring back a separate MIA to new Orleans train that can better serve the huge Florida market, have better time keeping and be much more relevant than a coast to coast sunset.
For once Amtrak is making sense.
It distorts the function. The function of a government-subsidized service is to serve the most people/voters/taxpayers, not serve people based on length of journey. Better to help 20 folks travel 100 miles and reduce highway congestion than assist one person travel 2000 miles. That is a government for the people, to quote Lincoln.
Why are passenger miles an economic distortion ?
dakotafred conrailman Amtrak needs a fresh order of Superliners cars, before they start ant service. Say 500 New Cars. Couldn't agree more, but first Amtrak has to know its own mind. Full-service dining or more wretched cafe arrangements? Sleepers -- Amtrak seems in no hurry to take delivery on the ones Obama made a present of 7 long years ago -- or more baggage cars (for bicyles) and dorm cars? In short, Amtrak would need to bring more vision to the job -- not to mention guts in the face of a handful of bully-boy congressmen and senators -- or it would be just more taxpayer money thrown away.
conrailman Amtrak needs a fresh order of Superliners cars, before they start ant service. Say 500 New Cars.
Amtrak needs a fresh order of Superliners cars, before they start ant service. Say 500 New Cars.
Couldn't agree more, but first Amtrak has to know its own mind. Full-service dining or more wretched cafe arrangements? Sleepers -- Amtrak seems in no hurry to take delivery on the ones Obama made a present of 7 long years ago -- or more baggage cars (for bicyles) and dorm cars?
In short, Amtrak would need to bring more vision to the job -- not to mention guts in the face of a handful of bully-boy congressmen and senators -- or it would be just more taxpayer money thrown away.
Knowing its mind suggests Amtrak needs to look at market research numbers, that 'vision thing'. The focus needs to be on the areas of growth - shorter corridors - and developing sufficient frequencies there. LD has been a relatively small sector of use in terms of ridership. The use of passenger miles as a statistic creates an economic distortion. Captial investments, as in any economic endeavor, should be in the larger sectors where growth is likely, not in a legacy segment that primarily is there for congressional support.
Couldn't agree more, but first Amtrak has to know its own mind. Full-service dining or more wretched cafe arrangements? Sleepers -- Amtrak seems in no hurry to take delivery on the ones Obama made a present of 7 long years ago -- or more baggage cars (for bicycles) and dorm cars?
Any resumption of service on this route should be focused on the New Orleans-Jacksonville-Orlando market. The proposed schedule allows for reasonable connections with the CNO which should remain a separate train on its present route. Using an extended CNO for this service would just repeat the same problems the SUNSET frequently had especially on the eastbound runs. With a skeletal LD system and a tight equipment situation not all scenarios for service can be attained.
With many of the PRIIA recommendations not acted upon and a new chairman on tap for later this year why not look at some restructuring of service in this region? Reworking the CRESCENT (while not altering the NY-Atlanta segment) to split in Meridian, MS with one section going to Dallas-Fort Worth via Jackson and Shreveport with the southern section going to Houston and San Antonio via New Orleans to connect with a restructured TEXAS EAGLE would be a start. Running the TE as a Chicago-San Antonio (via Palestine TX)-Los Angeles train on a daily two night out schedule would give most of the major cities on this route reasonable arrival/departure times. A big test would be if thru cars from the TE could be interchanged for D-FW at Longview, TX. and if a reasonable transfer time could be achieved at San Antonio.
On the downside the SUNSET would miss connections in LA with the COAST STARLIGHT but there would be LA-AZ daylight service and an opportunity to work various markets between CHI & LA. If thru D-FW cars on the CRESCENT are not possible then thru CHI-HOUSTON cars on an extended HEARTLAND FLYER could be looked at.
It's time to look long and hard at working the markets within a certain train's route than trying to make everything connect putting a strain on everything.
Looking at those ridership numbers reminds us of why Amtrak basically abandoned the route. There is no train today because Amtrak failed to restart it after the tracks were restored following Katrina. They saw the opportunity to quit and seized it.
A Congress and ridership interested in the route would have insisted on restoration. Obviously, neither was nor did.
oltmannd Numbers for 2003, 04 here: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Plans/2004/PsgrComponentFull.pdf Example: the fairly large stop of Pensacola had about 4000 riders a year. About 25 a day.
Numbers for 2003, 04 here: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Plans/2004/PsgrComponentFull.pdf
Example: the fairly large stop of Pensacola had about 4000 riders a year. About 25 a day.
Interesting. By way of contrast, Pensacola had 689,269 emplanements. Some other barely used stops in FL: Lake City - 703; Madison - 399; Chipley 1,886; Crestview 1,357;and even Tallahassee only 2,888. Of course there are also stops in Jacksonville, but no breakout of ridership on the Gulf Coast train. Also Mobile and some MS stops. However, it would appear that the PRIIA study predicting ridership of 80-96K was overly generous.
A NOLA-Gulfport-Mobile corridor was propsed by MS and could be widely used:http://sp.gomdot.com/Intermodal%20Planning/Freight,%20Rails,%20Ports%20and%20Waterways/Documents/Mississippi%20State%20Rail%20Plan.pdf
This proposal is a casebook example of one of Amtrak's shortcomings: planning based on "doing things the way we (always) do it." The demographics have changed so radically since 1950 or even 1970. Freight lines recognized this factual trend by greatly reducing routes in areas with declines in population and business in the NE and rustbelt and cornbelt. Why is Amtrak stuck in a time warp?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
i WONDER WHAT THE RIDERSHIP WAS ON THE GULF COAST IN 2004-5?
If this is going to happen, two quick thoughts.
1. The "straw" schedule works okay for Mobile to New Orleans day trips, and even helps wiht Orlando - Jacksonville. The rest of the route is pretty useless as it runs east-west where most of the intercity traffic is north-south. It really doesn't matter what time it serves Pensicola.
2. New Orleans is not a bad place to have to layover for a night. In fact, it might even improve the trip!
Like said the old gulf wind was a overnight train that provided good connection on both ends, new Orleans and Jacksonville. Its crazy to try to run a catch all ( all ways late all ) coast to coast sunset. Run a Miami to new Orleans gulf wind with connections to a new Orleans to LA sunset. Amtrak needs to service its local customer's first rather than the few that want to endure a coast to coast train.
Robert, here is the old gulf wind schedule 1971
http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/gulfwind197104.html
Electroliner 1935 Jim200 When the City of New Orleans arrives in New Orleans at 3:32 PM, the Houston Rocket section would leave for Houston arriving at 11:00 PM, turn around and depart at 11:42 PM, and arrive back in New Orleans at about 9:00 AM, and depart north to Chicago at 1:45 PM. How does the equipment get serviced? It seems that you think the train can run from Chicago to New Oleans to Houston and make a commuter like turnaround and return to Chicago with out allowing any time for its 1000 mile inspection, restocking, cleaning, etc. Get real.
Jim200 When the City of New Orleans arrives in New Orleans at 3:32 PM, the Houston Rocket section would leave for Houston arriving at 11:00 PM, turn around and depart at 11:42 PM, and arrive back in New Orleans at about 9:00 AM, and depart north to Chicago at 1:45 PM.
How does the equipment get serviced? It seems that you think the train can run from Chicago to New Oleans to Houston and make a commuter like turnaround and return to Chicago with out allowing any time for its 1000 mile inspection, restocking, cleaning, etc. Get real.
blue streak 1 Don't mess with the Crescent whose schedules are very tied to the present Atlanta times. Maybe an Atlanta arrival 1 hour earlier would be OK but any earlier would kill Atlanta arrivals from NYP. Instead for connections to / from Crescent use the Dedicated Thru way buses Gulfport - Hattiesburg or Mobile - Tuscaloosa.
Don't mess with the Crescent whose schedules are very tied to the present Atlanta times. Maybe an Atlanta arrival 1 hour earlier would be OK but any earlier would kill Atlanta arrivals from NYP.
Instead for connections to / from Crescent use the Dedicated Thru way buses Gulfport - Hattiesburg or Mobile - Tuscaloosa.
schlimm Deggesty I have marveled at the turn-around time in Miami for the three all-coach trains that were operated between Chicago and that city: all three had the same schedule between Jacksonville and Miami (each one ran every third day), arriving in Miami just before four in the afternoon--and leaving for Chicago before five thirty. There was scarcely enough time for unloading, cleaning the interiors, and boarding new passengers. I do not doubt that there were times when each train arrived in Chicago after midnight--and was to be ready by about eight in the morning after arrival. There was one set of equipment for each train. The FEC may have used its engines on the trains, with the change being in Jacksonville each way. Wow! Some real hustle. The odds of that ~50 years later seem slim.
Deggesty I have marveled at the turn-around time in Miami for the three all-coach trains that were operated between Chicago and that city: all three had the same schedule between Jacksonville and Miami (each one ran every third day), arriving in Miami just before four in the afternoon--and leaving for Chicago before five thirty. There was scarcely enough time for unloading, cleaning the interiors, and boarding new passengers. I do not doubt that there were times when each train arrived in Chicago after midnight--and was to be ready by about eight in the morning after arrival. There was one set of equipment for each train. The FEC may have used its engines on the trains, with the change being in Jacksonville each way.
I have marveled at the turn-around time in Miami for the three all-coach trains that were operated between Chicago and that city: all three had the same schedule between Jacksonville and Miami (each one ran every third day), arriving in Miami just before four in the afternoon--and leaving for Chicago before five thirty. There was scarcely enough time for unloading, cleaning the interiors, and boarding new passengers. I do not doubt that there were times when each train arrived in Chicago after midnight--and was to be ready by about eight in the morning after arrival. There was one set of equipment for each train. The FEC may have used its engines on the trains, with the change being in Jacksonville each way.
Wow! Some real hustle. The odds of that ~50 years later seem slim.
Johnny
If we are going old school, then the Orlando ( Miami ) to new Orleans section of the run needs to be a separate train from the present day sunset, with thru sleepers. It would greatly improve time keeping and eliminate those embarrassing trains that were 6 to 20 hours late.
The old gulf wind made its run over night between new Orleans and Jacksonville. It better served the gulf coast markets snd made better connections in new orleans than Amtrak coast to coast attempt with the catch all sunset.
I would the rate the chance of resumption of the Sunset east of New Orleans as between zero and none. Same as resumption of daily west of New Orleans. Once you let the original service go, you give the host railroads the opportunity to jack the price to unrealistic levels.
Of course, it doesn't help when Amtrak folds so easily, instead of waging a fight.
The lesson for Amtrak is: Don't let your deal go down. Because you'll probably never get it back at a price you can afford.
I suspect if they follow through on this proposal it will destroy the time keeping of the City of New Orleans and make it as unreliable as the Sunset Limited.
Jim200When the City of New Orleans arrives in New Orleans at 3:32 PM, the Houston Rocket section would leave for Houston arriving at 11:00 PM, turn around and depart at 11:42 PM, and arrive back in New Orleans at about 9:00 AM, and depart north to Chicago at 1:45 PM.
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