The Southern Rail Commission inspection trip by train of the Gulf Coast from New Orleans to Jacksonville took place. FRA, Amtrak, CSX, Governor and US Senator of Mississippi, US Rep. of Florida, and the Mayor of New Orleans were among the participants.
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/02/19-gulf-coast
Although it appeared that the Southern Rail Commission was studying the New Orleans to Orlando train, a new Gulf Coast Working Group is established by congressional law to study the same thing. Although not mentioned specifically, perhaps they will also pass out the money for the study. FRA, Amtrak, and Mississippi senator Roger Wicker approve the re-establishment of passenger rail here.
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/02/16-gulf-coast
Two articles on an inspection trip of the gulf coast February 18/19 with many comments.
Bob Johnston, Passenger Rail Commission Sets Inspection Trip for Gulf Coast, January 26, 2016
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/01/26-sunset-inspection
Previous story on inspection trip.
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/01/14-special-amtrak-train-to-roll-over-former-sunset-limited-route
The Sunset Limited is on a trial schedule till Feb 24, 2016 with a New Orleans westwarrd departure at 10:30 AM instead of 9:00 AM, but with a San Antonio arrival of 12:41 AM, (after midnight next day). Yesterday the train left New Orleans on time at 10:30 AM, arrived at Lake Charles,LA 1 hour and 5 minutes late, arrived at Houston 8 minutes late, arrived at San Antonio on time and is now 21 minutes early into Alpine ,TX. If this trend continues, 10:30 AM could be the new departure time, and will provide good connectivity with the proposed gulf coast train schedule from Orlando to New Orleans to Chicago which is talked about in the beginning of this discussion. This will facilitate travel from Florida to Houston, San Antonio, Arizona, Los Angeles, and with connections to the 'Texas Eagle' and the 'Coast Starlight'.
schlimm ROBERT WILLISON I think the fec did the home work for the need for rail service in south Florida at least for higher speed service. Perhaps you have some research that proves otherwise. That's what I assumed by my comment: " one in FL, although the FEC HSR train will preempt much of that need." That means running the FL segment of a Gulf Coast down to south FL is pointless.
ROBERT WILLISON I think the fec did the home work for the need for rail service in south Florida at least for higher speed service. Perhaps you have some research that proves otherwise.
I think the fec did the home work for the need for rail service in south Florida at least for higher speed service. Perhaps you have some research that proves otherwise.
That's what I assumed by my comment: " one in FL, although the FEC HSR train will preempt much of that need."
That means running the FL segment of a Gulf Coast down to south FL is pointless.
The FEC and Amtrak routes are two very different routes. Yes there is a need to provide service all the way to Miami on Amtrak as shown again this weekend. Any time the Virginia, NC, SC area has bad weather, Amtrak has no route out of Florida. It happened in the fall with the rain that hit the area. With service returned to NOLA from Miami, it opens up the whole West to Florida again. Try getting to B'ham today from Miami to see how sorry the setup is. Amtrak also needs to drop the Hialeah station and move to the new TriRail, MetroRail, MIA station. Pick up a loco at Hialeah inbound to pull it back to Hialeah for servicing. Drop a loco outbound that should be in the evening unlike the current morning only departures.
One way to provide the service would be for there to be thru car(s) NOL - Kansas City. However don't the river runners run with single levels at present ? Once runners are equipped with the new bi-levels that would not be a problem ? Since 311 turns to 316 a thru car(s) connecting at STL and Carbondale.
V.Payne "Memphis - New Orleans is the top city pair by ridership; Chicago - New Orleans is #2, and here again, Memphis - Chicago is #3. Due to cost for longer distance and the greater use of sleepers, the top revenue pair is Chicago - New Orleans, with Memphis - Chicago #2 and Memphis - New Orleans #3. Thus the 6:50 AM departure southward from Memphis and 10:40 PM northward seems to be working, so we have to be careful with changes..." True, though may I submitt that a day train terminating in Memphis as an extension of one of the Chicago corridor runs makes a lot more sense than tyring to get an overnight train to deliver to Memphis in the very early morning and then making the rest of the route, with fewer population centers, exist during a day long slog to New Or;eans. Serve Memphis with a setout sleeper and at the end of an extended corridor train. Though this all requires a view of variable costs NRPC lacks.
"Memphis - New Orleans is the top city pair by ridership; Chicago - New Orleans is #2, and here again, Memphis - Chicago is #3. Due to cost for longer distance and the greater use of sleepers, the top revenue pair is Chicago - New Orleans, with Memphis - Chicago #2 and Memphis - New Orleans #3. Thus the 6:50 AM departure southward from Memphis and 10:40 PM northward seems to be working, so we have to be careful with changes..."
True, though may I submitt that a day train terminating in Memphis as an extension of one of the Chicago corridor runs makes a lot more sense than tyring to get an overnight train to deliver to Memphis in the very early morning and then making the rest of the route, with fewer population centers, exist during a day long slog to New Or;eans. Serve Memphis with a setout sleeper and at the end of an extended corridor train. Though this all requires a view of variable costs NRPC lacks.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
To those promoting a St Louis -Carbondale rail connection, Amtrak has a bus on this route that takes two hours and covers 84 miles. Does anyone have statistics on its ridership? One bus is a lot less expensive to operate than a train for forty passengers or less.
True, though may I submitt that a day train terminating in Memphis as an extension of one of the Chicago corridor runs makes a lot more sense than tyring to get an overnight train to deliver to Memphis in the very early morning and then making the rest of the route, with fewer population centers, exist during a day long slog to New Orleans. Serve Memphis with a setout sleeper and at the end of an extended corridor train. Though this all requires a view of variable costs NRPC lacks.
I also think that the City of New Orleans going to St Louis from Chicago is a good idea. It will still be slow and roundabout near St Louis, but a good schedule should be possible that will maintain times for Memphis. Exactly how it should go after St Louis needs to be determined, but in looking at Google car photos of Belleville, the Norfolk Southern single track looks to be in good shape. Belleville was a stop for the River Cities and could be again for the City of New Orleans, if an Amshak or station is built.
I do not know why, but the last New Orleans-St. Louis service did not use the IC going into St. Louis, but went through Centralia and used the Southern between there and East St. Louis. I would not be surprised to learn that the NS track is in better shape than the CN track between Du Quoin (the junction with the main line) and East St. Louis.
Johnny
What is the condition of the St Louis - Carbondale route? Passenger speed = ?
The current schedule of the City of New Orleans makes same-day connections from the West Coast possible, even if the trains are a little late.
The idea of rerouting the CNO thru St. Louis is not a new one as back in the late 1970's when the DOT and AMTRAK were reviewing a "zero-base" route structure this was discussed but nothing came of it. It wasn't until the RIVER CITIES came along that there was finally direct sercice between KC-STL & NO although it never really seemed to catch on.
A St. Louis reroute with scheduling adjustments could still maintain the three most important city pairs as mentioned previously and pick up a major metropolitan market. Extension of one of the MISSOURI RIVER RUNNERS would involve switching cars in/out at Carbondale and putting one of these Missouri supported trains at schedule risk if the CNO is tardy.
With travel times soon to reduced on the CHI-STL corridor and connections with the current KC-STL service I believe this should seriously be looked at.
V.Payne Perhaps the solution is to reschedule the City of New Orleans for a 4 PM departure out of Chicago, after all it makes no sense for the train leaving Chicago with a dining car to not travel during dinner time, then flip the regional schedule to the 8 PM departure slot held by the CONO. With this Memphis goes to a setout sleeper as 6 AM ish is not reasonable for a large city even on the existing schedule much less at 2 AM. What does this minor change in departure times gain? 1. The ability to use two trainsets instead of three with a same day equipment turn in New Orleans, so now the trains can run longer, yielding a denser revenue per trainmile which would combine with a declining Average Cost curve with respect to consist length to lead to better financial performance. Additionally, OBS cost efficiency increases with the same day turns in New Orleans. 2. The ability to split a section off at Jackson, MS for Mobile, AL and connecting on to Pensacola, FL, with through car or otherwise. This also would add to revenue density of the main segment and perhaps allow for a St. Louis River Cities connection again. Now a pre-lunch arrival is made on the growing Gulf Coast from daytime pickups in the midwest, continuing on to the Florida panhandle in a daytime distribution mode. 3. Then a morning day train out of New Orleans could connect with the split section at Mobile for ongoing eastern travel. The daytime train would probably only get to Jacksonville, FL before evening or even turn up toward Montgomery, creating a "X" of routes around Mobile. A map will be posted soon.
Perhaps the solution is to reschedule the City of New Orleans for a 4 PM departure out of Chicago, after all it makes no sense for the train leaving Chicago with a dining car to not travel during dinner time, then flip the regional schedule to the 8 PM departure slot held by the CONO. With this Memphis goes to a setout sleeper as 6 AM ish is not reasonable for a large city even on the existing schedule much less at 2 AM.
What does this minor change in departure times gain?
1. The ability to use two trainsets instead of three with a same day equipment turn in New Orleans, so now the trains can run longer, yielding a denser revenue per trainmile which would combine with a declining Average Cost curve with respect to consist length to lead to better financial performance. Additionally, OBS cost efficiency increases with the same day turns in New Orleans.
2. The ability to split a section off at Jackson, MS for Mobile, AL and connecting on to Pensacola, FL, with through car or otherwise. This also would add to revenue density of the main segment and perhaps allow for a St. Louis River Cities connection again. Now a pre-lunch arrival is made on the growing Gulf Coast from daytime pickups in the midwest, continuing on to the Florida panhandle in a daytime distribution mode.
3. Then a morning day train out of New Orleans could connect with the split section at Mobile for ongoing eastern travel. The daytime train would probably only get to Jacksonville, FL before evening or even turn up toward Montgomery, creating a "X" of routes around Mobile. A map will be posted soon.
However, when we look at St Louis with a metropolitan population of 2.8 million and compare it to Memphis with 1.3 million, something is wrong. There is a thruway bus at 11:00 PM to Carbondale, IL to meet the City of New Orleans for a 1:26 AM departure southward, yet neither Carbondale - Memphis nor Carbondale - New Orleans are in the top nine city pairs for ridership or revenue. There is also the Missouri River Runner from Kansas City, population 2.1 million, which arrives in St Louis at 9:40 PM. I don't know much here, but it would seem that this train extended to Carbondale with a through sleeper and coach would be a better solution for passengers. It would also be good for a 3:11 AM return trip to St Louis from the northbound City of New Orleans. However, in November 1993 the similar River Cities was ended, and the Pioneer and Texas Eagle were reduced to three times per week in $10 million of cost cutting due to lack of congressional support. I think that it wouldn't cost much to extend the Missouri River Runner, but there must be reasons why it hasn't been done previously. Adding more passengers from St Louis and Kansas City would also be good for the proposed gulf coast extension and vice versa. In 2000, even with late problems, 46.6%, (53,256/114,401), of the tri-weekly Sunset Limited passengers arrived to or departed from cities east of New Orleans.
The River Cities and City of New Orleans timetable 1993
http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19931031n&item=0020
Historically, the overnight (Panama Limited) schedule had a few branches from the main Chicago to New Orleans stem and of course the train consist changed three times over the length of the route. One of the branches ran to the Gulf Coast from Jackson, MS as proposed above (green line below), but not to Mobile, AL.
In other news one of the proposals for restored Gulf Coast service only goes to Atmore (east of Mobile), so one can understand that there is a need to provide a revenue injection at Mobile from connecting passengers off the branch from the current CONO so that a Gulf service can continue to run east during the daytime.
On conventional lines it is all about low access costs and good utility of onboard time so as to provide a denser revenue per trainmile using through car branches.
Here is the map promised from CAD. Both lines are day trains, the green line providing a connection to a more sensibly scheduled City of New Orleans and the blue line providing commuter access to New Orleans from Baton Rouge before crossing and heading north to either the Montgomery area only or Atlanta. Both trains would interchange in Mobile so they then build revenue density by doubling the origin to destination pairs.
bill613a The switch to an overnite schedule took place in November 1971.
The switch to an overnite schedule took place in November 1971.
So did the name change to "Panama Limited" - just in time for Arlo Guthrie to release his "City of New Orleans".
Interesting how intially Amtrak continued only the all-coach City. Not sure when the switch was made to a night train.
The Mid-American only went south as far as Memphis. The Louisiane was definitely a degraded train by the mid 60's, as I recall.
Got me on a technicality while making another point, Amtrak has flipped the names and schedules, but what they appear to be attempting to operate of late, after giving up on keeping a day train schedule, was something like the Panama Limited (though the late 1960's version with coaches). Now it is a version of the Lousiane or later into the 1960's the Mid-American.
They could do better than a 8:00 PM departure for the sake of revenue.
Deggesty V. Payne referred to the current Amtrak timetable.
V. Payne referred to the current Amtrak timetable.
Sorry to be;abor the point but you keep claiming you know what he meant. V. Payne said very clearly: "So much different than mid- AM arrivals of IC times."
IC times, in other words pre-Amtrak, pre-1970.
Not point less, just seamless. The fec trains will not be sharing the new Miami central stations or any Amtrak stations in Orlando. Amtrak does have convienently located right in their suburban back yards.
Alas, the, cab signals were removed from the former IC mainline which made the trip longer than when the song was written. Service interuption showing today for the City. Suspect it has to do with the flooding on the Mississippi and the spillway trestle being closed for the passenger train.
Yes, but that was entirely Amtrak stuff, renaming the Panama to the City. On THE IC, the City was always a day train to the bitter end. Listen to Goodman's song. Payne said IC. The all-Pullman Panama Ltd. arrived at 9:00 am, so that must be what he meant. And the City was all coach, sometimes with a club-lounge obs, but no Pullmans.
At some time after 1973 and before 1982 (I do not have the history here), Amtrak decided to rename the Chicago-New Orleans train; V. Payne is not confused.
V.PaynePS: I just noticed the Amtrak website is showing the CONO arrival into New Orleans at 4:47 PM instead of 3:32 PM per the 1/11/16 timetables. I am not sure if this is from the detours due to flooding or bus bridges but it persists into February bookings. So much different than mid- AM arrivals of IC times.
The IC TT for April, 1964 shows the City departing CHI at 7:46 am, arr. NOLA at 12:25 am, which was typical. It was always a day train. Perhaps you confused it with the Panama?
It seems FEC looked at some of the projections from the FL tollroad models, which predicted that high tolls would be required to obtain freeflow conditions in the next decade. Some values were shockingly high ($0.67/mile in 2020), so they concluded they had a good financial basis to move forward, at a moderate speed no less. However, they discounted too greatly access costs to obtain line haul speed, which is not market based thinking, though service offerings could be modified later.
The plan outlined might be good financially as it would lay the foundation to get at least two frequencies on the coast eventually, a pure daytime run which the CONO leg would connect with at Mobile, AL, feeding into the daytime service revenue density, and a early/late commuter stretch Mobile to New Orleans and Tallahassee to Jackasonville, bookending the overnight center stretch as the second frequency.
PS: I just noticed the Amtrak website is showing the CONO arrival into New Orleans at 4:47 PM instead of 3:32 PM per the 1/11/16 timetables. I am not sure if this is from the detours due to flooding or bus bridges but it persists into February bookings. So much different than mid- AM arrivals of IC times.
This service degradation is the near term reality that has to be built upon, but eventually all the interstates will enter into non-freeflowing conditions at the current funding levels as most right of way is now exhausted at choke points. The Mobile Bay bridge segement and many parts of I-10 are already there during many times of the day.
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