As mandated by congress, the Southern Rail Commission had Amtrak prepare a report on the resumption of gulf coast service from New Orleans to Mobile Alabama and other cities to Orlando Florida. The least expensive, alternative A1, would cost $5.48 million and have 138,300 passengers, and would be an extention to the City of New Orleans train, and would connect Chicago, Memphis, and other cities to as far away as Florida. For clarity in this discussion, I will call it the Orlando Sunshine. It would travel an additional 767 miles through a metropolitan population of 7.3 million, with further connections to the Silver Meteor and Miami, and by busing to Tampa. Connection northward at Jacksonville is also possible, but with a 9 hour layover for the Silver Meteor and 15 hour for the Silver Star. The same could be accomplished with alternative C, which is a stand alone train, but with half the potential passengers and greater cost. Both have the following schedule for selected cities:
New Orleans 5:00 PM
Mobile 8:18 PM
Tallahassee 5:00 AM
Jacksonville 8:15 AM
Orlando 11:30 AM
Return trip:
Orlando 4:15 PM
Jacksonville 7:25 PM
Tallahassee 11:10 PM
Mobile 6:03 AM
New Orleans 9:30 AM
As a hub, New Orleans has poorly designed connectivity. Passengers arrive in the afternoon/evening, stay the night and depart in the morning/early afternoon. The City of New Orleans arrives at 3:32 PM, the Crescent at 7:32 PM, and the Sunset Limited at 9:40 PM. The Crescent departs at 7:00 AM, the Sunset Lmited at 9:00 AM, and the City of New Orleans at 1:45 PM. While vacationers might find an overnight stay in New Orleans enjoyable, other passengers might consider it a burden, and still others have already opted for taking a bus or plane direct to their destination.
With the proposed Orlando Sunshine, some connectivity is possible but it involves some schedule changes and/or infrastructure improvements to make the connectivity work. The Crescent leaves New York City at 2:15 PM, departs Atlanta at 8:38 AM and arrives in New Orleans at 7:32 PM, just missing the Orlando Sunshine. If infrastructure and schedule improvements could increase the average speed, Atlanta to New Orleans, from 47mph to 59 mph, the arrival in New Orleans would be 5:20 PM. Perhaps a schedule increase to 53 mph, which it can do now, and an Atlanta departure at 7:38 AM would also be acceptable. However, it should be noted that lateness at Atlanta needs to be prevented. The Orlando Sunshine would need to delay its New Orleans departure to about 5:50PM to make this work, and even lateness to 6:40 PM would still make connections with the Silver Meteor in Orlando. Thus passengers, for example, from Atlanta to Mobile and other cities, and from Birmingham to Tallahassee and further would add to both the Crescent and Orlando Sunshine total passengers and income possible.
With a 9:40 PM arrival in New Orleans, it is difficult for the Sunset Limited to make a same day eastward connection to the Orlando Sunshine, even at a revised 5:50 PM departure. Two hour earlier arrival is possible with schedule or infrastructure improvements, but due to the connection with the Texas Eagle at San Antonio, it is not known if 2 1/2 more hours, (total equal 4 1/2 hours earlier), are easily attainable, but this should be a future goal.
The westward Orlando Sunshine arrives in New Orleans at 9:30 AM missing both the Crescent departure at 7:00 AM and Sunset Limited departure at 9:00 AM. With 6:03 AM timing for Mobile being very early, it would be better to change the Orlando Sunshine schedule for a 10:00 AM or later arrival in New Orleans. On January 13 thru February 24 Amtrak is trying a 10:30 AM departure of the Sunset Limited with an on time departure at San Antonio. This would make good connectivity with the Orlando Sunshine and possibly show where infrastructure improvements are needed. Thus more passengers from Orlando, Jacksonville, and other cities will easily be able to go west or return home to Houston, San Antonio, Phoenix, Los Angeles, and other cities. This connectivity increases the usefulness and numbers for both train routes.
If the west bound Orlando Sunshine arrives in New Orleans at 10:00 AM, then the Crescent should depart later at about 11:00 AM. With one hour reduction through schedule or infrastructure improvements, the northeast bound Crescent would arrive in Atlanta at 10:35 PM and New York at 4:46 PM, which appears satisfactory, but perhaps an hour earlier would be better. Thus passengers from Florida would be able to easily go to Birmingham, Atlanta and other cities, and add to the patronage of both trains.
Let us look at another idea which would make better use of the City of New Orleans trainset and would provide the following:
When the City of New Orleans arrives in New Orleans at 3:32 PM, the Houston Rocket section would leave for Houston arriving at 11:00 PM, turn around and depart at 11:42 PM, and arrive back in New Orleans at about 9:00 AM, and depart north to Chicago at 1:45 PM. The distance New Orleans to Houston is 383 mi, which is half of that to Orlando. From this it is expected that the operating costs will be about half of that of the Orlando Sunshine. Whereas the Orlando Sunshine will require two additional short trainsets, no additional may be required for the Houston Rocket. The average speed to Houston should be increased from 42 mph to 48 mph, which it can probably do now or with some infrastructure improvement. The metro population for the Houston Rocket extension is 8.1 million, which is about the same as the Orlando Sunshine. Due to additional connectivity, Amtrak will have to figure out the number of passengers and revenue, which will also have to be redone for the Orlando Sunshine.
The new schedule for trains at New Orleans would be:
As you can see, connectivity in New Orleans is improved, but not perfect. Also there are more subjects to be talked about such as:
Bob Johnston, Gulf Coast Passenger Rail Advocates Have at Least Five Options, Dec 15, 2015
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/12/14-gulf-coast-meetings
Amtrak report for the Southern Rail Commission, Potential Gulf Coast Service Restoration Options, December 2015
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf
Amtrak, PRIIA Section 226 Gulf Coast Service Plan Report, July 16, 2009
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/904/671/GulfCoastServicePlanReport.pdf
Amtrak, PRIIA Section 210 Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle Performance Improvement Plan, September 2010
https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/970/304/PRIIA-210-SunsetLtd-TexasEagle-PIP,0.pdf
Amtrak webpage with info on New Orleans
https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=am/am2Station/Station_Page&code=NOL
Don't mess with the Crescent whose schedules are very tied to the present Atlanta times. Maybe an Atlanta arrival 1 hour earlier would be OK but any earlier would kill Atlanta arrivals from NYP.
Instead for connections to / from Crescent use the Dedicated Thru way buses Gulfport - Hattiesburg or Mobile - Tuscaloosa.
Jim200When the City of New Orleans arrives in New Orleans at 3:32 PM, the Houston Rocket section would leave for Houston arriving at 11:00 PM, turn around and depart at 11:42 PM, and arrive back in New Orleans at about 9:00 AM, and depart north to Chicago at 1:45 PM.
How does the equipment get serviced? It seems that you think the train can run from Chicago to New Oleans to Houston and make a commuter like turnaround and return to Chicago with out allowing any time for its 1000 mile inspection, restocking, cleaning, etc. Get real.
I have marveled at the turn-around time in Miami for the three all-coach trains that were operated between Chicago and that city: all three had the same schedule between Jacksonville and Miami (each one ran every third day), arriving in Miami just before four in the afternoon--and leaving for Chicago before five thirty. There was scarcely enough time for unloading, cleaning the interiors, and boarding new passengers. I do not doubt that there were times when each train arrived in Chicago after midnight--and was to be ready by about eight in the morning after arrival. There was one set of equipment for each train. The FEC may have used its engines on the trains, with the change being in Jacksonville each way.
Johnny
Deggesty I have marveled at the turn-around time in Miami for the three all-coach trains that were operated between Chicago and that city: all three had the same schedule between Jacksonville and Miami (each one ran every third day), arriving in Miami just before four in the afternoon--and leaving for Chicago before five thirty. There was scarcely enough time for unloading, cleaning the interiors, and boarding new passengers. I do not doubt that there were times when each train arrived in Chicago after midnight--and was to be ready by about eight in the morning after arrival. There was one set of equipment for each train. The FEC may have used its engines on the trains, with the change being in Jacksonville each way.
Wow! Some real hustle. The odds of that ~50 years later seem slim.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I suspect if they follow through on this proposal it will destroy the time keeping of the City of New Orleans and make it as unreliable as the Sunset Limited.
I would the rate the chance of resumption of the Sunset east of New Orleans as between zero and none. Same as resumption of daily west of New Orleans. Once you let the original service go, you give the host railroads the opportunity to jack the price to unrealistic levels.
Of course, it doesn't help when Amtrak folds so easily, instead of waging a fight.
The lesson for Amtrak is: Don't let your deal go down. Because you'll probably never get it back at a price you can afford.
If we are going old school, then the Orlando ( Miami ) to new Orleans section of the run needs to be a separate train from the present day sunset, with thru sleepers. It would greatly improve time keeping and eliminate those embarrassing trains that were 6 to 20 hours late.
The old gulf wind made its run over night between new Orleans and Jacksonville. It better served the gulf coast markets snd made better connections in new orleans than Amtrak coast to coast attempt with the catch all sunset.
schlimm Deggesty I have marveled at the turn-around time in Miami for the three all-coach trains that were operated between Chicago and that city: all three had the same schedule between Jacksonville and Miami (each one ran every third day), arriving in Miami just before four in the afternoon--and leaving for Chicago before five thirty. There was scarcely enough time for unloading, cleaning the interiors, and boarding new passengers. I do not doubt that there were times when each train arrived in Chicago after midnight--and was to be ready by about eight in the morning after arrival. There was one set of equipment for each train. The FEC may have used its engines on the trains, with the change being in Jacksonville each way. Wow! Some real hustle. The odds of that ~50 years later seem slim.
blue streak 1 Don't mess with the Crescent whose schedules are very tied to the present Atlanta times. Maybe an Atlanta arrival 1 hour earlier would be OK but any earlier would kill Atlanta arrivals from NYP. Instead for connections to / from Crescent use the Dedicated Thru way buses Gulfport - Hattiesburg or Mobile - Tuscaloosa.
Electroliner 1935 Jim200 When the City of New Orleans arrives in New Orleans at 3:32 PM, the Houston Rocket section would leave for Houston arriving at 11:00 PM, turn around and depart at 11:42 PM, and arrive back in New Orleans at about 9:00 AM, and depart north to Chicago at 1:45 PM. How does the equipment get serviced? It seems that you think the train can run from Chicago to New Oleans to Houston and make a commuter like turnaround and return to Chicago with out allowing any time for its 1000 mile inspection, restocking, cleaning, etc. Get real.
Jim200 When the City of New Orleans arrives in New Orleans at 3:32 PM, the Houston Rocket section would leave for Houston arriving at 11:00 PM, turn around and depart at 11:42 PM, and arrive back in New Orleans at about 9:00 AM, and depart north to Chicago at 1:45 PM.
Robert, here is the old gulf wind schedule 1971
http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/gulfwind197104.html
Like said the old gulf wind was a overnight train that provided good connection on both ends, new Orleans and Jacksonville. Its crazy to try to run a catch all ( all ways late all ) coast to coast sunset. Run a Miami to new Orleans gulf wind with connections to a new Orleans to LA sunset. Amtrak needs to service its local customer's first rather than the few that want to endure a coast to coast train.
If this is going to happen, two quick thoughts.
1. The "straw" schedule works okay for Mobile to New Orleans day trips, and even helps wiht Orlando - Jacksonville. The rest of the route is pretty useless as it runs east-west where most of the intercity traffic is north-south. It really doesn't matter what time it serves Pensicola.
2. New Orleans is not a bad place to have to layover for a night. In fact, it might even improve the trip!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
i WONDER WHAT THE RIDERSHIP WAS ON THE GULF COAST IN 2004-5?
Numbers for 2003, 04 here: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Plans/2004/PsgrComponentFull.pdf
Example: the fairly large stop of Pensacola had about 4000 riders a year. About 25 a day.
oltmannd Numbers for 2003, 04 here: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Plans/2004/PsgrComponentFull.pdf Example: the fairly large stop of Pensacola had about 4000 riders a year. About 25 a day.
Interesting. By way of contrast, Pensacola had 689,269 emplanements. Some other barely used stops in FL: Lake City - 703; Madison - 399; Chipley 1,886; Crestview 1,357;and even Tallahassee only 2,888. Of course there are also stops in Jacksonville, but no breakout of ridership on the Gulf Coast train. Also Mobile and some MS stops. However, it would appear that the PRIIA study predicting ridership of 80-96K was overly generous.
A NOLA-Gulfport-Mobile corridor was propsed by MS and could be widely used:http://sp.gomdot.com/Intermodal%20Planning/Freight,%20Rails,%20Ports%20and%20Waterways/Documents/Mississippi%20State%20Rail%20Plan.pdf
This proposal is a casebook example of one of Amtrak's shortcomings: planning based on "doing things the way we (always) do it." The demographics have changed so radically since 1950 or even 1970. Freight lines recognized this factual trend by greatly reducing routes in areas with declines in population and business in the NE and rustbelt and cornbelt. Why is Amtrak stuck in a time warp?
Looking at those ridership numbers reminds us of why Amtrak basically abandoned the route. There is no train today because Amtrak failed to restart it after the tracks were restored following Katrina. They saw the opportunity to quit and seized it.
A Congress and ridership interested in the route would have insisted on restoration. Obviously, neither was nor did.
Any resumption of service on this route should be focused on the New Orleans-Jacksonville-Orlando market. The proposed schedule allows for reasonable connections with the CNO which should remain a separate train on its present route. Using an extended CNO for this service would just repeat the same problems the SUNSET frequently had especially on the eastbound runs. With a skeletal LD system and a tight equipment situation not all scenarios for service can be attained.
With many of the PRIIA recommendations not acted upon and a new chairman on tap for later this year why not look at some restructuring of service in this region? Reworking the CRESCENT (while not altering the NY-Atlanta segment) to split in Meridian, MS with one section going to Dallas-Fort Worth via Jackson and Shreveport with the southern section going to Houston and San Antonio via New Orleans to connect with a restructured TEXAS EAGLE would be a start. Running the TE as a Chicago-San Antonio (via Palestine TX)-Los Angeles train on a daily two night out schedule would give most of the major cities on this route reasonable arrival/departure times. A big test would be if thru cars from the TE could be interchanged for D-FW at Longview, TX. and if a reasonable transfer time could be achieved at San Antonio.
On the downside the SUNSET would miss connections in LA with the COAST STARLIGHT but there would be LA-AZ daylight service and an opportunity to work various markets between CHI & LA. If thru D-FW cars on the CRESCENT are not possible then thru CHI-HOUSTON cars on an extended HEARTLAND FLYER could be looked at.
It's time to look long and hard at working the markets within a certain train's route than trying to make everything connect putting a strain on everything.
Amtrak needs a fresh order of Superliners cars, before they start ant service. Say 500 New Cars.
conrailman Amtrak needs a fresh order of Superliners cars, before they start ant service. Say 500 New Cars.
Couldn't agree more, but first Amtrak has to know its own mind. Full-service dining or more wretched cafe arrangements? Sleepers -- Amtrak seems in no hurry to take delivery on the ones Obama made a present of 7 long years ago -- or more baggage cars (for bicycles) and dorm cars?
In short, Amtrak would need to bring more vision to the job -- not to mention guts in the face of a handful of bully-boy congressmen and senators -- or it would be just more taxpayer money thrown away.
dakotafred conrailman Amtrak needs a fresh order of Superliners cars, before they start ant service. Say 500 New Cars. Couldn't agree more, but first Amtrak has to know its own mind. Full-service dining or more wretched cafe arrangements? Sleepers -- Amtrak seems in no hurry to take delivery on the ones Obama made a present of 7 long years ago -- or more baggage cars (for bicyles) and dorm cars? In short, Amtrak would need to bring more vision to the job -- not to mention guts in the face of a handful of bully-boy congressmen and senators -- or it would be just more taxpayer money thrown away.
Couldn't agree more, but first Amtrak has to know its own mind. Full-service dining or more wretched cafe arrangements? Sleepers -- Amtrak seems in no hurry to take delivery on the ones Obama made a present of 7 long years ago -- or more baggage cars (for bicyles) and dorm cars?
Knowing its mind suggests Amtrak needs to look at market research numbers, that 'vision thing'. The focus needs to be on the areas of growth - shorter corridors - and developing sufficient frequencies there. LD has been a relatively small sector of use in terms of ridership. The use of passenger miles as a statistic creates an economic distortion. Captial investments, as in any economic endeavor, should be in the larger sectors where growth is likely, not in a legacy segment that primarily is there for congressional support.
Why are passenger miles an economic distortion ?
It distorts the function. The function of a government-subsidized service is to serve the most people/voters/taxpayers, not serve people based on length of journey. Better to help 20 folks travel 100 miles and reduce highway congestion than assist one person travel 2000 miles. That is a government for the people, to quote Lincoln.
Living down in south Florida during the Amtrak sunset era, it was sure great pacing her trek, running parallel to I 95. But trying to run the train efficiently, over the entire 3000 plus trip was a operational disaster.
Time keeping was more than problematic. In an effort to address the issue, it was cut back to orlando. The train was then pulled back to Amtrak auto train terminal ( not a short trip ) for servicing.
The cut back did nothing to address the on going time keeping issues. It did cut the train off from the largest population centers in florida, Miami, ft Lauderdale, Boca raton and west palm beach. It equates to cutting the lake shore ltd back to Albany instead of NYC to save time.
I can fully understand why Amtrak is dragging its feet on the reinstatement of the train, it makes no sense to.
Instead as I have stated before, bring back a separate MIA to new Orleans train that can better serve the huge Florida market, have better time keeping and be much more relevant than a coast to coast sunset.
For once Amtrak is making sense.
A New Orleans-Miami train is possible by having the proposed new service interchange thru cars at Jacksonville with the SILVER METEORS.
Is there a lot of travel from MIA or ORL to NOLA and vv?
Route from mia to Nola includes all of the major populations centers of in south Florida . it would connect them to the resort areas of Orlando, the state Capitol in Tallahassee, with new Orleans, casinos on the gulf and the beaches in the pan handle. Pretty good chunk of Florida. With the some marketing and time the route could be developed. Probably more viable than the coast to coast option.
ROBERT WILLISON Route from mia to Nola includes all of the major populations centers of in south Florida . it would connect them to the resort areas of Orlando, the state Capitol in Tallahassee, with new Orleans, casinos on the gulf and the beaches in the pan handle. Pretty good chunk of Florida. With the some marketing and time the route could be developed. Probably more viable than the coast to coast option.
Most of the traffic is in FL; secondarily some between NOLA and Mobile. Show us market research that shows current heavy air traffic between Mobile and Florida points. Or NOLA and Miami? Or Gulfport and Tallahassee? There could be two trains, one NOLA to Mobile, one in FL, although the FEC HSR train will preempt much of that need.
Bill ,Amtrak original Florida sunset train was Miami to LA. The old gulf wind ran Nola to Jacksonville fl. How ever she tied up at the old Jacksonville union terminal. Amtrak current station is a one platform two track station with a southbound facing stub track. Their are no servicing facilities other than a water hose. Don't know if it would be work as a terminal.
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