MidlandMike schlimm With ratios of coach passengers to sleepers of 9 or 10:1, along with the higher labor and operating and maintenance expenses and purchase costs for a sleeper and the much smaller passenger load, worrying about enough sleeper cars on LD trains is not very sharp. I suspect the stat is for passengers (tickets sold) rather than passenger-miles. Sleeper passengers tend to ride longer segments than many coach passenger "shorts". As pointed out by others, sleeper passengers account for about half the cars and revenue per train. For Amtrak to ignore this demand and revenue would not make good business sense.
schlimm With ratios of coach passengers to sleepers of 9 or 10:1, along with the higher labor and operating and maintenance expenses and purchase costs for a sleeper and the much smaller passenger load, worrying about enough sleeper cars on LD trains is not very sharp.
With ratios of coach passengers to sleepers of 9 or 10:1, along with the higher labor and operating and maintenance expenses and purchase costs for a sleeper and the much smaller passenger load, worrying about enough sleeper cars on LD trains is not very sharp.
I suspect the stat is for passengers (tickets sold) rather than passenger-miles. Sleeper passengers tend to ride longer segments than many coach passenger "shorts". As pointed out by others, sleeper passengers account for about half the cars and revenue per train. For Amtrak to ignore this demand and revenue would not make good business sense.
Instead of suspecting, look at actual numbers from the PRIIA study of the Crescent"
Annual Ridership (FY 2010)
Coach Passengers ..........264,912
Sleeper Passengers...........33,776
Total.............................298,688
Average Travel Distance:
Coach Passengers ................... 526 miles
Sleeper Passengers.................. 755 miles
So coach passenger ride a little shorter ride. If you think that 11% of the ridership generates 50% of the revenue, let's see the data.
On western routes, the proportion of sleeper passengers is higher (SWC 17%). And the average distance ridden in sleepers is almost double.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Auto Train is a big train with a large O. B. S. crew. There are no vacant rooms in the Crew Dorm available for sale as revenue rooms on that train. I know this is commonly done on other trains which have smaller crews.
R. Willison referenced the pre-Superliner consist. There were normally three 10-6's and three 11 bedroom cars in those days, plus a 10-6 or 11-bedroom car in use as a crew car. The original Viewliner sleepers were briefly used for a few months on that train, and I think they may have been used in addition to the normal consist, but my memory may be faulty. This was about 20 years ago. If they were additional, then the train had seven revenue sleepers plus a [non revenue] crew car.
Johnny, I'm curious. Did a crew member open the Dorm car's lower level door for you, or did you open it yourself? As far as I know, Amtrak frowns on anybody detraining from an unattended Superliner door, although this is sometimes allowed in other areas with other types of equipment and high level platforms where the threshold and platform height are well matched. If there was nobody to attend that entrance, I suspect Amtrak would have preferred that you walk to the door of the adjacent car to detrain. Maybe they do things differently out West.
Tom
Tom, I do not know about the dorm sleepers on Autotrain, but on other trains, the roomettes at the rear of the cars are revenue space. On both levels, the area forward of the entrance is marked for employees only. Last fall, I had a roomette in that car when I returned home from western Canada via Chicago. The attendant for those roomettes also had to look after the first coach. I made my berth down, but she put it back up.
That was the trip we left Chicago two hours late because of congestion east of Chicago, were five hours late at Lincoln, and were about seven hours late into Salt Lake City. I slept from the other side of Glenwood Springs to about Provo. I did not see the attendant when I got off, for she was busy with her coach passengers, and I would have had to walk back to see her. At least, I did not have to walk the length of the train to get to the station, as I do when I have space in 0530 or 0531.
Johnny
I was on a VIA Canadian that had 18 sleepers plus a Park Car which makes 19 sleepers, four Skyline cars, three diners, two coaches and a baggage car and had three FP40's pulling it. Budd cars HEP load may not be as big as Superliners but there didn't seem to be any problems. Train was arranged with three groups of six sleepers bracketing a diner and a skyline car, follwed by the park car. The front was the baggage, two coaches and a Skyline which was for the coach passengers viewing and meal service. Took a long time to water all those cars.
Fred: From PRIIA studies of LD trains, not corridors or NEC.
It would probably be a stretch to run 8 working sleepers on the Auto Train. For many years, the standard arrangement has been to run one Crew dorm, plus 2 deluxe Superliner II sleepers, plus 4 standard Superliner II sleepers. In recent years, a fifth standard car has been added at times. If you counted a total of 8 sleepers, then you probably counted the Crew Dorm as a revenue sleeper, which it is not.
Occasionally a car is deadheaded on the train, and there have been very rare occasions when an extra car has been added to accommodate Amtrak personnel traveling on business; but this is extremely rare and has probably never brought the number up to 8 sleepers in addition to the Dorm.
In the past, there has been ample discussion (in other threads) of the drain on HEP capacity which is caused by the excessive electricity demand of too many cars. I understand the installation of LED lighting has eased this problem somewhat in recent years.
I have seen as many as 8 sleepers on auto train. On my last trip before it was re equipped with super liners, Amtrak still ran 11db sleepers on the train.
Is the 9:1 or 10:1 advantage claimed for coach ridership system-wide, or typical for LD trains? If the former, it's easy to see the NEC running the score way up for coaches.
On most LD trains I've ridden, the sleeper passengers would fill the diner for the old wine-and-cheese parties, whereas you could throw a dead cat down most of the coach aisles and not hit anyone.
I've seen coaches well-filled for short bursts, such as the CZ into Chicago on an early afternoon, but rarely otherwise.
OK....you have to press the ROUNDTRIP button. My mistake was readding the coach fare which is included in the combined. So it should be $690 RT approx..........still more than American Airlines First Class.
$345 is ONE -WAY Roomette or Economy Bedroom. There is no way possible that is a RT fare DAL to MKE.
If your taking the Sunset limited the sleeping car will be partially empty on your trip and you will see Amtrak folks sleeping in some of the compartments. Also trips to warmer climates generally hold up better than say CHI-NYC in the dead of winter or CHI-SEA.
CMStPnP OK, lets look at pricing. Amtrak Texas Eagle base prices in late Feb 2016 presumably when they are the most empty. Coach Seat RT Dallas to MKE: $300 approx Amtrak Roomette (Economy Bedroom): $680 approx Total without transport to and from the station or long term parking rolled in: $980.
OK, lets look at pricing. Amtrak Texas Eagle base prices in late Feb 2016 presumably when they are the most empty.
Coach Seat RT Dallas to MKE: $300 approx
Amtrak Roomette (Economy Bedroom): $680 approx
Total without transport to and from the station or long term parking rolled in: $980.
I just looked at Amtrak.com for February 22, 2016. On that day, the trip
Dallas - Chicago - Milwaukee is offered for:
Superliner Bedroom: $692.00 ($152 is 1 adult fare, $540 is bedroom).
Superliner Roomette: $345.00 ($152 is 1 adult fare, $193 is roomette).
Coach: $187.00 since the cheaper fare is sold out on that day.
No idea where the original poster's $980.00 total came from.
I don't think trains in February are all that empty. The cheapest fares are sold, some sleeping accomodations are either at low supply or out.
I just booked Little Rock to Los Angeles in late February and in one direction found the cheapest fare sold out and got the last cheapest fare in the other direction. So obviously someone is traveling then. I'm looking forward to seeing how full the train will be.
CMStPnPschlimm: FYI only. Lufthansa has much cheaper Coach Fares between Dallas and Frankfurt, last I looked they were going for $1100-1200. For some reason American carriers jack up the price quite a bit for coach but then discount Business Class and sometimes even First Class compared to the European carriers. They seem to approach pricing differently (European vs American Carriers).
Very true to UK, although Delta/KLM is competive to Europe, as is AA to Düsseldorf (for some reason, AA dropped its ORD-FRA service). In recent years, I fly Air Berlin. Better pricing, flies to Berlin Tegel nonstop, which is a quicker, easier entry point, and they use Airbus 330s, which are more comfortable than 767s.
First Class Ticket on American Airlines bought on the Internet for same travel segment and dates: $488. (2 hour flight)
So, I am curious why we can't have an enhanced Coach price on Amtrak for approx $450-500 RT.
schlimm: FYI only. Lufthansa has much cheaper Coach Fares between Dallas and Frankfurt, last I looked they were going for $1100-1200. For some reason American carriers jack up the price quite a bit for coach but then discount Business Class and sometimes even First Class compared to the European carriers. They seem to approach pricing differently (European vs American Carriers).
Mike, I agree with you on the matter of spacing seats so that passengers see too much blank wall space when looking out. I well remember wanting to have a good view when traveling coach, years ago, and I was not always successful.
Except for my traveling from Charlotte to Boston by day this past spring, all of my long distance travel on Amtrak in the last twenty-five years or so has been in sleeping accomodations, and so I have had the full width of windows to look out of.
Deliver me from variable pitch coach seating.
schlimm MidlandMike My observation is that sleeper space sells out long before coach, so that dialing back sleeper space is counter-productive. I know I would not be tempted out of sleeper space by a slightly bigger coach seat and curtains. I think CMStP's idea was to attract new riders. Sleepers are expensive and an improved coach for sleeping might attract a different clientele. And drop sleepers on routes where they are not especially popular.
MidlandMike My observation is that sleeper space sells out long before coach, so that dialing back sleeper space is counter-productive. I know I would not be tempted out of sleeper space by a slightly bigger coach seat and curtains.
My observation is that sleeper space sells out long before coach, so that dialing back sleeper space is counter-productive. I know I would not be tempted out of sleeper space by a slightly bigger coach seat and curtains.
I think CMStP's idea was to attract new riders. Sleepers are expensive and an improved coach for sleeping might attract a different clientele. And drop sleepers on routes where they are not especially popular.
I have no problem with adding a coach with the experimental expanded seating arrangement to see how it works out. Jets have multiple small windows so that seat spacing can be adjusted without problem, but Amtrak coach seats are matched to the window spacing. I would not pay extra for more legroom, only to have to stare at the blank wall between two windows.
I have traveled on every Amtrak LD route, except in the SE. I have had problems getting sleeper space several times, but I never had a problem getting a coach seat. Where are these routes where sleepers are not popular?
dakotafredRemember, too, airlines have nothing to offer on night flights but seats, more or less roomy or comfortable, more or less expensive ... but still seats. Amtrak has beds. And I don't buy that roomettes are high-priced. What's the differential between roomette and Amtrak coach vs. between tourist/coach and the variations on coach seats, including "first class", offered by the airlines?
1. Other than intercontinental and a few transcontinental flights, most are not overnight.
2. The 1st class cocoons are far more comfortable than an Amtrak sleeper.
3. Very few airplane rides exceed 5-6 hours domestic, Europe being 7-9 hours (from ORD), China 12-13.
4. Most LD sleeper trains require 20 or more hours.
Thus the prices really are not comparable. However:
Taking a roomette on the LSL RT, CHI-NYP in early January will set you back $894- coach $212. (air coach only $98-128 RT, just over two hours one way versus 19 hrs on train.)
RT flight ORD to London: $1975 coach; $7778 1st class. Of course it is a much greater distance. You might get a much better rate a little later flying to Berlin: $1080 on coach, $4992 business Air Berlin (more comfortable than AA!)
Unfortunately, Amtrak purchased new sleepers, diners and baggage cars (ZERO coaches) for LD services. The PRIIA reports for increasing revenue (by $700K) on the Silver Meteor and Star Service called for adding coaches, not sleepers, during the peak travel period- summer, since the passenger ratio is almost 10:1 coaches:sleepers, with the passengers primarily (68%) over 55 years of age.
What good is it for Amtrak to make studies and then purchase new equipment that is at odds with the data?
I think there's really more pressure on the airlines than on Amtrak to offer Milwaukee's kind of coach comforts for travel that's truly long-distance, in time.
After all, Amtrak's coach passengers can get up and move around. On my early-morning ride into Chicago on the City of New Orleans last year I found the lounge car full of them ... sleeping, as I'm sure they had been for hours.
Remember, too, airlines have nothing to offer on night flights but seats, more or less roomy and comfortable, more or less expensive ... but still seats. Amtrak has beds.
And I don't buy that roomettes are high-priced. What's the differential between roomette and Amtrak coach vs. between tourist/coach and the variations on coach seats, including "first class", offered by the airlines?
Betcha first class on Amtrak is the bigger bargain.
blue streak 1 Earn more money ?. The easy to answer but difficult to implement answer is more equipment; not paying to spend money modifying any present equipment that is in very short supply. New equipment can be made modular to enable cars whose trial configurations do not work to be changed.
Earn more money ?. The easy to answer but difficult to implement answer is more equipment; not paying to spend money modifying any present equipment that is in very short supply. New equipment can be made modular to enable cars whose trial configurations do not work to be changed.
I don't follow your logic. The more flexible railroad equipment is in usage for passenger or frieght the more productive it is at producing revenue. I believe it is the reason Amtrak is switching to modular designs that slide in on tracks. Also with the modifcations I suggested we are not talking huge modifications. Amtrak seats are already on tracks just slide in new ones to replace the old. Most folks can rig the curtain setup with basic materials from Home Depot.
Why buy new when the old equipment can handle this easily.
ROBERT WILLISON What most air lines do on their international routes is take a basic air plane and reconfigure its cabin. They reduce the size of the main coach cabin and add up scale business and first class cabin at substantially higher ticket prices. International revenue is driven by corporate business and not as much for leisure travel. Amtrak does the same thing in the NEC. Short to medium distance acela trains offers a good first class serviceand often run sold out. Amtrak really does a poor job in its business class , which is nothing more than a bigger seat, a news paper and coffee. I would think this could be an area for development since the equipment and concept exist, it just would need to be rolled out st a higher price and level of service on some short/ medium trains. One would think a good test market for upgraded coach or business class would be the coast star light which already offers multiple levels of service. Existing cars could be reconfigured ( like air liners ) and crews trained for the service.
What most air lines do on their international routes is take a basic air plane and reconfigure its cabin. They reduce the size of the main coach cabin and add up scale business and first class cabin at substantially higher ticket prices. International revenue is driven by corporate business and not as much for leisure travel.
Amtrak does the same thing in the NEC. Short to medium distance acela trains offers a good first class serviceand often run sold out. Amtrak really does a poor job in its business class , which is nothing more than a bigger seat, a news paper and coffee. I would think this could be an area for development since the equipment and concept exist, it just would need to be rolled out st a higher price and level of service on some short/ medium trains.
One would think a good test market for upgraded coach or business class would be the coast star light which already offers multiple levels of service. Existing cars could be reconfigured ( like air liners ) and crews trained for the service.
Almost every Indian guy I know in IT travels back to India from the United States at least once a year. Some do it twice a year. They favor the Middle East hubs like Dubai and Kuwait even though I think Kuwait treats them like dirt because of prejudice. Not all the $$$ is business driven. A lot of those folks in Business Class fly Coach regularly and were upgraded due to miles. It is the policy of large firms like IBM and GE and such to pay for Business Class when the trip is over 8 hours though..........but they get a pretty deep discount. Common misperception is they pay full business class fares but those days are long gone. They get discounts based on volume of passengers with each airline.
I believe we are talking about different seating classes. AA, Delta and UAL (and maybe others) all offer upgraded coach with extra legroom and priority seating on domestic flights. Also first, business and coach on transcontinental as well as international.
CMStPnP ... a marketing opportunity for Amtrak, IMO. The Airlines spotted it on their long distance flights but Amtrak appears to be missing it on their LD routes.
... a marketing opportunity for Amtrak, IMO. The Airlines spotted it on their long distance flights but Amtrak appears to be missing it on their LD routes.
That was one airline, American, on trans-Atlantic flights, I believe.
Yes the target market is for coach passengers that cannot afford sleeper.
Surprise to me but I thought most folks mingled on Amtrak in the Dinning and Lounge car with Coach passengers (obvious with this thread, that does not necessarily happen) but if you talked with Coach Passengers on the train on Long Distance runs you would see a lot of them found the sleeper to be too expensive but at the same time they thought the coach conditions could be improved as far as comfort and noise levels after a specific time. That is a marketing opportunity for Amtrak, IMO. The Airlines spotted it on their long distance flights but Amtrak appears to be missing it on their LD routes.
"Possibly another way for Amtrak to earn more money."
Make the trains run on time.
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