So I think it is kind of neat to float these trial balloons and see what others think. Recently or rather, in the news today, American Airlines has decided to introduce an Economy Premium Seating type arrangement on some of it's transatlantic flights. The Economy Premium seats would include meals, be seperated from the regular economy and business class using a partition and the seats would be all leather with extra legroom and would recline a little more that regular economy BUT they would not be the lie flat seats that American Business class offers.
I was thinking perhaps on Amtraks LD trains that in Coach something similar might be tried to jazz up the regular coach accomodations, partitions between the seats with curtains toward the aisles, seats that were wider and reclined a little more, meals paid for in the Dining Car along with seating reservations. Perhaps Amtrak could sell these LD Coach seats with a higher price than regular coach but cheaper than a Economy Bedroom. I don't think it would take much to modify a Superliner Coach for these new seating accomodations and maybe the extra revenue could be allocated towards both lowering the Dining Car deficit on a apportioned basis as well as increasing coach fares above what normally would be paid.
Isn't what you propose effectively Business Class for the Long Distance Routes?
Pullman and its predecessors, offered slumber coaches and duplex sleepers to provide lower over night accommodations. If I remember correctly slumber coach passengers meals were part of the deal.
With that said that was a 1955 solution without all the bells and whistle's.
Many post war trains also ran 21 roomettes cars. Such a floor plan could be modified.
Of course it would involving purchasing new equipment.
ROBERT WILLISON Pullman and its predecessors, offered slumber coaches and duplex sleepers to provide lower over night accommodations. If I remember correctly slumber coach passengers meals were part of the deal. With that said that was a 1955 solution without all the bells and whistle's. Many post war trains also ran 21 roomettes cars. Such a floor plan could be modified. Of course it would involving purchasing new equipment.
Johnny
I'd be concerned with encountering at least 2 problems with this idea:
There is a finite number of Superliner coaches and Amtrak shows no inclination to start the process of obtaining compatible replacement. Effectively, to implement the idea you have to canibalize current coach capacity. Without current occupancy data, I'm concerned that is a step in the wrong direction.
The on board crew will have an additional duty -- sorting passengers out by class of coach and enforcing that segregation. The airlines manage to do that with assigned seating, but they don't deal with many intermediate stops and multiple points of entry into their cabins.
The slumbercoach was a good idea as a coach upgrade, it generally was a coach fare plus space charge. Unfortunately, it never seemed to catch on with any number of passenger operations as CB&Q/NP, B&O and NYC were the only major operators.
What the OP describes is a roomette. It's already available for a reasonable price. Above that is a bedroom. If you choose to economize on your trip -- save your money to spend at the other end -- you go coach. That's a pretty good range of options. Who has demonstrated the need for yet another?
Even if Amtrak could afford to expensively remodel its coaches, or purchase new, the loss of capacity for a few more dollars a seat would make it a loser. Meantime, we can't even get those paid-for sleepers and dining cars out of Amtrak.
If I read CMStP's post correctly, he was talking about something analogous to the airlines' coach seats which have a little extra leg room and better furnishings. On American, that is called "Main Cabin Extra" with up to six inches extra legroom and priority to board and exit. On international, AA calls it Premium Economy, with more legroom and width and better food, to keeep up with non-domestic airlines' services.
So the equivalent is NOT anything with private rooms, be they roomettes or Slumbercoaches or Sleepercoaches from long ago. Probably it would be one full car (or a half car) with better seating and meals (included in ticket price) served at your seat. Not impossible to implement.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I twice rode VIA's Cavalier, the 11pm ish departure Toronto-Montreal. They had an extra fare car, which I used both trips, with fewer seats, more legroom, more complicated footrests. I believe they called the service Club 52, or some other number that indicated how many seats in the coach.
On one of those trips there was a father, mother and 2 children under 5 who asked to have their seats swiveled to face each other. I remember one of them mentioning to the other they didn't think the seats were much more comfortable than regular, and I thought turning them to face each other probably ate into the legroom.
Patrick Boylan
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I should have clarified it, I thought Amtrak not Pullman offered meals with for slumbercoach passengers.
I know the Pullman co did not.
ROBERT WILLISON I should have clarified it, I thought Amtrak not Pullman offered meals with for slumbercoach passengers. I know the Pullman co did not.
I rode slumbercoaches (SC) on multiple RR's and I thought they came in after Pullman transferred the sleeper service to the RR's after the Govenment said they had a conflict between MFG & Ops. Meals were never included in sleeper or SC fares until Amtrak bundled (shades of the cable companys) them for the regular sleepers.
You are quite right: Budd began building slumbercoaches in the fifties.
NYC's were rebuilds of 21 roomette Budd cars if I recall and they had a different configuration.
Slumbercoache single rooms were similar to duplex roomettes in that they had staggered elevations so that you stepped up to every other room, the beds were made in two sections with a thin mattress that was stored behind the seat back and each roomette had its own sink & toilet, thermostat, but no shoe shine recepticle. The double rooms were at one end of the original Budd cars and were to toward the center with roomettes on either side in the rebuilt NYC cars which I think had a different (2 less rooms) space count.
schlimm If I read CMStP's post correctly, he was talking about something analogous to the airlines' coach seats which have a little extra leg room and better furnishings. On American, that is called "Main Cabin Extra" with up to six inches extra legroom and priority to board and exit. On international, AA calls it Premium Economy, with more legroom and width and better food, to keeep up with non-domestic airlines' services. So the equivalent is NOT anything with private rooms, be they roomettes or Slumbercoaches or Sleepercoaches from long ago. Probably it would be one full car (or a half car) with better seating and meals (included in ticket price) served at your seat. Not impossible to implement.
Yes exactly, I was not talking about new sleeper cars just an inexpensive mod to an existing Coach Car. Years ago Amtrak used to have regular Coach and Long Distance Coach (seats had a fold out leg rest and reclined further). I have no clue if they still have that or not. The whole idea here is to give coach passengers a more expensive ticket alternative that is a lot cheaper than a bedroom or roomette without taking up whole volumes of extra space with a lie flat seat. I think the partitions between the seat would have drawbacks in that you would only be able to see out your window and the one across the aisle when the curtains were open (unless you make the partitions slide down during the day). However the added privacy at night would be an incentive I think passengers would pay more for.
So these accomodations would be cheaper to maintain vs roomette or sleeper for example:
1. No bedding except maybe a pillow provided with blanket.
2. No plumbing or toilet at the seat.
3. No seperate thermostat controls at the seat.
Also, think the customization would be relatively easy to add BUT I have no idea as to regulations in the area of safety, potential evacuation, etc that would need to be met.
The partitions for example could be nothing more than heavy duty cloth shades that slide up from the seat back and hook into the overhead luggage rack or they could place a bar across the aisle.........luggage rack to luggage rack and have the shades sliding out of the seat back attach to that..........then drop in the curtain rack between the cross aisle bar in front and in back of the seat.......pretty easy and over most peoples heads (they would not have to stoop). Would be a gap at the top of the shade and car roof of 1-2 feet so that the same ventilation system could be used..........also why we would probably want to use curtains vs glass partition doors.
C'mon, Schlimm and Milwaukee, I was speaking figuratively. My point was, the kind of extra value Milwaukee is proposing for coach is already available in the sleeper.
I think 3 price points are ample for the low volumes carried on most Amtrak routes. And my objection stands that the expense of remodeling or purchase of new equipment would never pay for itself. As if the money were there in the first place.
I understand, Fred, but deluxe coach (used to be offered pre-Amtrak) is not at all the same as a roomette. Check the prices. This would be on LD trains.
dakotafred C'mon, Schlimm and Milwaukee, I was speaking figuratively. My point was, the kind of extra value Milwaukee is proposing for coach is already available in the sleeper. I think 3 price points are ample for the low volumes carried on most Amtrak routes. And my objection stands that the expense of remodeling or purchase of new equipment would never pay for itself. As if the money were there in the first place.
Not quite the same. Sleeper added overhead cost to Amtrak for bedding, attendent, specialized car, cleaning of inside of car, etc. So a chunk of the extra revenue to Amtrak is lost.
Additionally, this new service by using existing coach could even result in dropping sleeping car service on some routes where patronage does not necessarily support it OR dialing sleeping car capacity on a route back a bit where via yield management the sleeping car is not performing as financially well as it could if the sleeping car was placed on another route with higher demand.
My observation is that sleeper space sells out long before coach, so that dialing back sleeper space is counter-productive. I know I would not be tempted out of sleeper space by a slightly bigger coach seat and curtains.
"Possibly another way for Amtrak to earn more money."
Make the trains run on time.
MidlandMike My observation is that sleeper space sells out long before coach, so that dialing back sleeper space is counter-productive. I know I would not be tempted out of sleeper space by a slightly bigger coach seat and curtains.
I think CMStP's idea was to attract new riders. Sleepers are expensive and an improved coach for sleeping might attract a different clientele. And drop sleepers on routes where they are not especially popular.
Yes the target market is for coach passengers that cannot afford sleeper.
Surprise to me but I thought most folks mingled on Amtrak in the Dinning and Lounge car with Coach passengers (obvious with this thread, that does not necessarily happen) but if you talked with Coach Passengers on the train on Long Distance runs you would see a lot of them found the sleeper to be too expensive but at the same time they thought the coach conditions could be improved as far as comfort and noise levels after a specific time. That is a marketing opportunity for Amtrak, IMO. The Airlines spotted it on their long distance flights but Amtrak appears to be missing it on their LD routes.
CMStPnP ... a marketing opportunity for Amtrak, IMO. The Airlines spotted it on their long distance flights but Amtrak appears to be missing it on their LD routes.
... a marketing opportunity for Amtrak, IMO. The Airlines spotted it on their long distance flights but Amtrak appears to be missing it on their LD routes.
That was one airline, American, on trans-Atlantic flights, I believe.
What most air lines do on their international routes is take a basic air plane and reconfigure its cabin. They reduce the size of the main coach cabin and add up scale business and first class cabin at substantially higher ticket prices. International revenue is driven by corporate business and not as much for leisure travel.
Amtrak does the same thing in the NEC. Short to medium distance acela trains offers a good first class serviceand often run sold out. Amtrak really does a poor job in its business class , which is nothing more than a bigger seat, a news paper and coffee. I would think this could be an area for development since the equipment and concept exist, it just would need to be rolled out st a higher price and level of service on some short/ medium trains.
One would think a good test market for upgraded coach or business class would be the coast star light which already offers multiple levels of service. Existing cars could be reconfigured ( like air liners ) and crews trained for the service.
Earn more money ?. The easy to answer but difficult to implement answer is more equipment; not paying to spend money modifying any present equipment that is in very short supply. New equipment can be made modular to enable cars whose trial configurations do not work to be changed.
I believe we are talking about different seating classes. AA, Delta and UAL (and maybe others) all offer upgraded coach with extra legroom and priority seating on domestic flights. Also first, business and coach on transcontinental as well as international.
ROBERT WILLISON What most air lines do on their international routes is take a basic air plane and reconfigure its cabin. They reduce the size of the main coach cabin and add up scale business and first class cabin at substantially higher ticket prices. International revenue is driven by corporate business and not as much for leisure travel. Amtrak does the same thing in the NEC. Short to medium distance acela trains offers a good first class serviceand often run sold out. Amtrak really does a poor job in its business class , which is nothing more than a bigger seat, a news paper and coffee. I would think this could be an area for development since the equipment and concept exist, it just would need to be rolled out st a higher price and level of service on some short/ medium trains. One would think a good test market for upgraded coach or business class would be the coast star light which already offers multiple levels of service. Existing cars could be reconfigured ( like air liners ) and crews trained for the service.
Almost every Indian guy I know in IT travels back to India from the United States at least once a year. Some do it twice a year. They favor the Middle East hubs like Dubai and Kuwait even though I think Kuwait treats them like dirt because of prejudice. Not all the $$$ is business driven. A lot of those folks in Business Class fly Coach regularly and were upgraded due to miles. It is the policy of large firms like IBM and GE and such to pay for Business Class when the trip is over 8 hours though..........but they get a pretty deep discount. Common misperception is they pay full business class fares but those days are long gone. They get discounts based on volume of passengers with each airline.
blue streak 1 Earn more money ?. The easy to answer but difficult to implement answer is more equipment; not paying to spend money modifying any present equipment that is in very short supply. New equipment can be made modular to enable cars whose trial configurations do not work to be changed.
I don't follow your logic. The more flexible railroad equipment is in usage for passenger or frieght the more productive it is at producing revenue. I believe it is the reason Amtrak is switching to modular designs that slide in on tracks. Also with the modifcations I suggested we are not talking huge modifications. Amtrak seats are already on tracks just slide in new ones to replace the old. Most folks can rig the curtain setup with basic materials from Home Depot.
Why buy new when the old equipment can handle this easily.
I think there's really more pressure on the airlines than on Amtrak to offer Milwaukee's kind of coach comforts for travel that's truly long-distance, in time.
After all, Amtrak's coach passengers can get up and move around. On my early-morning ride into Chicago on the City of New Orleans last year I found the lounge car full of them ... sleeping, as I'm sure they had been for hours.
Remember, too, airlines have nothing to offer on night flights but seats, more or less roomy and comfortable, more or less expensive ... but still seats. Amtrak has beds.
And I don't buy that roomettes are high-priced. What's the differential between roomette and Amtrak coach vs. between tourist/coach and the variations on coach seats, including "first class", offered by the airlines?
Betcha first class on Amtrak is the bigger bargain.
Unfortunately, Amtrak purchased new sleepers, diners and baggage cars (ZERO coaches) for LD services. The PRIIA reports for increasing revenue (by $700K) on the Silver Meteor and Star Service called for adding coaches, not sleepers, during the peak travel period- summer, since the passenger ratio is almost 10:1 coaches:sleepers, with the passengers primarily (68%) over 55 years of age.
What good is it for Amtrak to make studies and then purchase new equipment that is at odds with the data?
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