dakotafredRemember, too, airlines have nothing to offer on night flights but seats, more or less roomy or comfortable, more or less expensive ... but still seats. Amtrak has beds. And I don't buy that roomettes are high-priced. What's the differential between roomette and Amtrak coach vs. between tourist/coach and the variations on coach seats, including "first class", offered by the airlines?
1. Other than intercontinental and a few transcontinental flights, most are not overnight.
2. The 1st class cocoons are far more comfortable than an Amtrak sleeper.
3. Very few airplane rides exceed 5-6 hours domestic, Europe being 7-9 hours (from ORD), China 12-13.
4. Most LD sleeper trains require 20 or more hours.
Thus the prices really are not comparable. However:
Taking a roomette on the LSL RT, CHI-NYP in early January will set you back $894- coach $212. (air coach only $98-128 RT, just over two hours one way versus 19 hrs on train.)
RT flight ORD to London: $1975 coach; $7778 1st class. Of course it is a much greater distance. You might get a much better rate a little later flying to Berlin: $1080 on coach, $4992 business Air Berlin (more comfortable than AA!)
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm MidlandMike My observation is that sleeper space sells out long before coach, so that dialing back sleeper space is counter-productive. I know I would not be tempted out of sleeper space by a slightly bigger coach seat and curtains. I think CMStP's idea was to attract new riders. Sleepers are expensive and an improved coach for sleeping might attract a different clientele. And drop sleepers on routes where they are not especially popular.
MidlandMike My observation is that sleeper space sells out long before coach, so that dialing back sleeper space is counter-productive. I know I would not be tempted out of sleeper space by a slightly bigger coach seat and curtains.
My observation is that sleeper space sells out long before coach, so that dialing back sleeper space is counter-productive. I know I would not be tempted out of sleeper space by a slightly bigger coach seat and curtains.
I think CMStP's idea was to attract new riders. Sleepers are expensive and an improved coach for sleeping might attract a different clientele. And drop sleepers on routes where they are not especially popular.
I have no problem with adding a coach with the experimental expanded seating arrangement to see how it works out. Jets have multiple small windows so that seat spacing can be adjusted without problem, but Amtrak coach seats are matched to the window spacing. I would not pay extra for more legroom, only to have to stare at the blank wall between two windows.
I have traveled on every Amtrak LD route, except in the SE. I have had problems getting sleeper space several times, but I never had a problem getting a coach seat. Where are these routes where sleepers are not popular?
With ratios of coach passengers to sleepers of 9 or 10:1, along with the higher labor and operating and maintenance expenses and purchase costs for a sleeper and the much smaller passenger load, worrying about enough sleeper cars on LD trains is not very sharp.
Mike, I agree with you on the matter of spacing seats so that passengers see too much blank wall space when looking out. I well remember wanting to have a good view when traveling coach, years ago, and I was not always successful.
Except for my traveling from Charlotte to Boston by day this past spring, all of my long distance travel on Amtrak in the last twenty-five years or so has been in sleeping accomodations, and so I have had the full width of windows to look out of.
Deliver me from variable pitch coach seating.
Johnny
OK, lets look at pricing. Amtrak Texas Eagle base prices in late Feb 2016 presumably when they are the most empty.
Coach Seat RT Dallas to MKE: $300 approx
Amtrak Roomette (Economy Bedroom): $680 approx
Total without transport to and from the station or long term parking rolled in: $980.
First Class Ticket on American Airlines bought on the Internet for same travel segment and dates: $488. (2 hour flight)
So, I am curious why we can't have an enhanced Coach price on Amtrak for approx $450-500 RT.
schlimm: FYI only. Lufthansa has much cheaper Coach Fares between Dallas and Frankfurt, last I looked they were going for $1100-1200. For some reason American carriers jack up the price quite a bit for coach but then discount Business Class and sometimes even First Class compared to the European carriers. They seem to approach pricing differently (European vs American Carriers).
CMStPnPschlimm: FYI only. Lufthansa has much cheaper Coach Fares between Dallas and Frankfurt, last I looked they were going for $1100-1200. For some reason American carriers jack up the price quite a bit for coach but then discount Business Class and sometimes even First Class compared to the European carriers. They seem to approach pricing differently (European vs American Carriers).
Very true to UK, although Delta/KLM is competive to Europe, as is AA to Düsseldorf (for some reason, AA dropped its ORD-FRA service). In recent years, I fly Air Berlin. Better pricing, flies to Berlin Tegel nonstop, which is a quicker, easier entry point, and they use Airbus 330s, which are more comfortable than 767s.
CMStPnP OK, lets look at pricing. Amtrak Texas Eagle base prices in late Feb 2016 presumably when they are the most empty. Coach Seat RT Dallas to MKE: $300 approx Amtrak Roomette (Economy Bedroom): $680 approx Total without transport to and from the station or long term parking rolled in: $980.
I just looked at Amtrak.com for February 22, 2016. On that day, the trip
Dallas - Chicago - Milwaukee is offered for:
Superliner Bedroom: $692.00 ($152 is 1 adult fare, $540 is bedroom).
Superliner Roomette: $345.00 ($152 is 1 adult fare, $193 is roomette).
Coach: $187.00 since the cheaper fare is sold out on that day.
No idea where the original poster's $980.00 total came from.
I don't think trains in February are all that empty. The cheapest fares are sold, some sleeping accomodations are either at low supply or out.
I just booked Little Rock to Los Angeles in late February and in one direction found the cheapest fare sold out and got the last cheapest fare in the other direction. So obviously someone is traveling then. I'm looking forward to seeing how full the train will be.
OK....you have to press the ROUNDTRIP button. My mistake was readding the coach fare which is included in the combined. So it should be $690 RT approx..........still more than American Airlines First Class.
$345 is ONE -WAY Roomette or Economy Bedroom. There is no way possible that is a RT fare DAL to MKE.
If your taking the Sunset limited the sleeping car will be partially empty on your trip and you will see Amtrak folks sleeping in some of the compartments. Also trips to warmer climates generally hold up better than say CHI-NYC in the dead of winter or CHI-SEA.
schlimm With ratios of coach passengers to sleepers of 9 or 10:1, along with the higher labor and operating and maintenance expenses and purchase costs for a sleeper and the much smaller passenger load, worrying about enough sleeper cars on LD trains is not very sharp.
Is the 9:1 or 10:1 advantage claimed for coach ridership system-wide, or typical for LD trains? If the former, it's easy to see the NEC running the score way up for coaches.
On most LD trains I've ridden, the sleeper passengers would fill the diner for the old wine-and-cheese parties, whereas you could throw a dead cat down most of the coach aisles and not hit anyone.
I've seen coaches well-filled for short bursts, such as the CZ into Chicago on an early afternoon, but rarely otherwise.
I have seen as many as 8 sleepers on auto train. On my last trip before it was re equipped with super liners, Amtrak still ran 11db sleepers on the train.
It would probably be a stretch to run 8 working sleepers on the Auto Train. For many years, the standard arrangement has been to run one Crew dorm, plus 2 deluxe Superliner II sleepers, plus 4 standard Superliner II sleepers. In recent years, a fifth standard car has been added at times. If you counted a total of 8 sleepers, then you probably counted the Crew Dorm as a revenue sleeper, which it is not.
Occasionally a car is deadheaded on the train, and there have been very rare occasions when an extra car has been added to accommodate Amtrak personnel traveling on business; but this is extremely rare and has probably never brought the number up to 8 sleepers in addition to the Dorm.
In the past, there has been ample discussion (in other threads) of the drain on HEP capacity which is caused by the excessive electricity demand of too many cars. I understand the installation of LED lighting has eased this problem somewhat in recent years.
Tom
Fred: From PRIIA studies of LD trains, not corridors or NEC.
I was on a VIA Canadian that had 18 sleepers plus a Park Car which makes 19 sleepers, four Skyline cars, three diners, two coaches and a baggage car and had three FP40's pulling it. Budd cars HEP load may not be as big as Superliners but there didn't seem to be any problems. Train was arranged with three groups of six sleepers bracketing a diner and a skyline car, follwed by the park car. The front was the baggage, two coaches and a Skyline which was for the coach passengers viewing and meal service. Took a long time to water all those cars.
Tom, I do not know about the dorm sleepers on Autotrain, but on other trains, the roomettes at the rear of the cars are revenue space. On both levels, the area forward of the entrance is marked for employees only. Last fall, I had a roomette in that car when I returned home from western Canada via Chicago. The attendant for those roomettes also had to look after the first coach. I made my berth down, but she put it back up.
That was the trip we left Chicago two hours late because of congestion east of Chicago, were five hours late at Lincoln, and were about seven hours late into Salt Lake City. I slept from the other side of Glenwood Springs to about Provo. I did not see the attendant when I got off, for she was busy with her coach passengers, and I would have had to walk back to see her. At least, I did not have to walk the length of the train to get to the station, as I do when I have space in 0530 or 0531.
Auto Train is a big train with a large O. B. S. crew. There are no vacant rooms in the Crew Dorm available for sale as revenue rooms on that train. I know this is commonly done on other trains which have smaller crews.
R. Willison referenced the pre-Superliner consist. There were normally three 10-6's and three 11 bedroom cars in those days, plus a 10-6 or 11-bedroom car in use as a crew car. The original Viewliner sleepers were briefly used for a few months on that train, and I think they may have been used in addition to the normal consist, but my memory may be faulty. This was about 20 years ago. If they were additional, then the train had seven revenue sleepers plus a [non revenue] crew car.
Johnny, I'm curious. Did a crew member open the Dorm car's lower level door for you, or did you open it yourself? As far as I know, Amtrak frowns on anybody detraining from an unattended Superliner door, although this is sometimes allowed in other areas with other types of equipment and high level platforms where the threshold and platform height are well matched. If there was nobody to attend that entrance, I suspect Amtrak would have preferred that you walk to the door of the adjacent car to detrain. Maybe they do things differently out West.
I suspect the stat is for passengers (tickets sold) rather than passenger-miles. Sleeper passengers tend to ride longer segments than many coach passenger "shorts". As pointed out by others, sleeper passengers account for about half the cars and revenue per train. For Amtrak to ignore this demand and revenue would not make good business sense.
MidlandMike schlimm With ratios of coach passengers to sleepers of 9 or 10:1, along with the higher labor and operating and maintenance expenses and purchase costs for a sleeper and the much smaller passenger load, worrying about enough sleeper cars on LD trains is not very sharp. I suspect the stat is for passengers (tickets sold) rather than passenger-miles. Sleeper passengers tend to ride longer segments than many coach passenger "shorts". As pointed out by others, sleeper passengers account for about half the cars and revenue per train. For Amtrak to ignore this demand and revenue would not make good business sense.
Instead of suspecting, look at actual numbers from the PRIIA study of the Crescent"
Annual Ridership (FY 2010)
Coach Passengers ..........264,912
Sleeper Passengers...........33,776
Total.............................298,688
Average Travel Distance:
Coach Passengers ................... 526 miles
Sleeper Passengers.................. 755 miles
So coach passenger ride a little shorter ride. If you think that 11% of the ridership generates 50% of the revenue, let's see the data.
On western routes, the proportion of sleeper passengers is higher (SWC 17%). And the average distance ridden in sleepers is almost double.
ACY Auto Train is a big train with a large O. B. S. crew. There are no vacant rooms in the Crew Dorm available for sale as revenue rooms on that train. I know this is commonly done on other trains which have smaller crews. R. Willison referenced the pre-Superliner consist. There were normally three 10-6's and three 11 bedroom cars in those days, plus a 10-6 or 11-bedroom car in use as a crew car. The original Viewliner sleepers were briefly used for a few months on that train, and I think they may have been used in addition to the normal consist, but my memory may be faulty. This was about 20 years ago. If they were additional, then the train had seven revenue sleepers plus a [non revenue] crew car. Johnny, I'm curious. Did a crew member open the Dorm car's lower level door for you, or did you open it yourself? As far as I know, Amtrak frowns on anybody detraining from an unattended Superliner door, although this is sometimes allowed in other areas with other types of equipment and high level platforms where the threshold and platform height are well matched. If there was nobody to attend that entrance, I suspect Amtrak would have preferred that you walk to the door of the adjacent car to detrain. Maybe they do things differently out West. Tom
As to where I boarded and detrained, I boarded my car in Chicago--there was someone standing there, and the door was open when I got off here. As I recall, a conductor was there when I boarded, and a conductor got off in Salt Lake City (division point). When boarding, I simply told him my room number.
When boarding here, a conductor scans our tickets and gives us boarding passes; when I reach my car, I tell the attendant that this is the car I am looking for, and what my space is. They usually quickly catch on that it is not my first trip on Amtrak. I will usually compliment the attendant on his spiel that he broadcasts in the car as we leave the origin.
VIA HEP for Canadian runs at a higher voltage than Amtrak so more power is available to budd cars..
schlimm MidlandMike schlimm With ratios of coach passengers to sleepers of 9 or 10:1, along with the higher labor and operating and maintenance expenses and purchase costs for a sleeper and the much smaller passenger load, worrying about enough sleeper cars on LD trains is not very sharp. I suspect the stat is for passengers (tickets sold) rather than passenger-miles. Sleeper passengers tend to ride longer segments than many coach passenger "shorts". As pointed out by others, sleeper passengers account for about half the cars and revenue per train. For Amtrak to ignore this demand and revenue would not make good business sense. Instead of suspecting, look at actual numbers from the PRIIA study of the Crescent" Annual Ridership (FY 2010) Coach Passengers ..........264,912 Sleeper Passengers...........33,776 Total.............................298,688 Average Travel Distance: Coach Passengers ................... 526 miles Sleeper Passengers.................. 755 miles So coach passenger ride a little shorter ride. If you think that 11% of the ridership generates 50% of the revenue, let's see the data. On western routes, the proportion of sleeper passengers is higher (SWC 17%). And the average distance ridden in sleepers is almost double.
Calculating using the figures you supplied:
On the Crescent the sleeper passengers are 15.5% of the passenger-miles, and if they pay twice as much as coach per psgr-mile, they will account for about 27% of the revenue.
On the SW Chief sleepers are 29% of the psgr-miles, and if they pay twice as much, they're just over 46% of revenue.
All true, but the important points seem to be these:
1. Amtrak is a service, largely subsidized, totally so for LD trains, to the tune of around 20 cents per passenger mile.
2. To get the most bang for the buck, or putting another way, to serve the most people, provide more coaches since that is what the vast majority of Amtrak passengers use.
3. Sleepers have higher costs to purchase, carry far fewer passengers per car, have much higher operating, labor and maintenance costs than coaches.
4. Sleepers are necessary for very LD trains. If you look at the PRIIA stats, you will find that those trains have a more elderly clientele with a large percentage having income in six figures. Therefore, raise the sleeper fares to cover more of the costs, since the modal passengers do not really need the subsidy and are not riding it as basic, needed transportation.
I think the other thing being missed in this thread is this.....
Lets say every bed is filled in a Superliner Sleeper........how many passengers is that car carrying compared to a Coach? Thats also a very unlikely scenario since it is fairly common for one person to rent a two bed roomette or one person to rend a bedroom........does single occupancy on a Amtrak sleeper cost more (as in Europe on a European sleeper)? No it does not.
Thats one big reason it is more expensive, car costs are spread over far less people. Add bedding, meals, refreshments, car attendant, additional plumbing and HVAC........significantly more costs vs. coach.
So you can argue the Sleeping car generates more revenue BUT where the argument is lost is it HAS to generate more revenue to cover it's costs. So more revenue generation of a sleeping car does not necessarily mean increased financial health for Amtrak.
BTW, I would argue the VIA Rail Canada Skeena which has no sleeping cars but which halts overnight between Jasper and Prince Rupert. Produces far more revenue per passenger when it runs near full than ANY LD Amtrak train in the lower 48. How can I say that? Three classes of coach fares.......which most in this thread are saying is not feasible. Already proven feasible by VIA Rail Canada....on a Long Distance train with no sleepers attached.
Amtrak already has an example to the North to look at in this respect.
Another item I would be curious about is if halting the Skeena for overnight hotel accomodations really costs a lot more than running the train straight through. I am willing to bet that it is cheaper with the union contracts and the fact that the equipment can be inspected and maintained overnight during the layover..........so is it really a hit on equipment productivity for a Long Distance train to halt at night for hotel accomodations? It's a hit on schedule but how many passengers really care with a 48 hour or longer train schedule if the train stops for an overnight?
Wonder if the passengers on Auto Train would care that much if say the train dropped all it's sleepers and halted in South Carolina for an overnight and then resumed the next morning.......similar to the Skeena. Would the 10-12 hour layover really make a huge difference in a client deciding to take that train or not?
I would like to see a comparison of the purchased cost for a sleeper vs a coach. Perhaps Amtrak did not include any coaches in the V2 order for that reason - no comparison. The purchase cost per passenger for a sleeper is probably much, much higher than for a coach.
Stainless steel car shells have a practically indefinite life if constructed properly, and I beleive this is true of Amfleet I and II. Amtrak did not buy single-level sleepers, and simply converted heritage equipment to HEP to soldier on. The Amfleet coaches and now Horizon coaches have many years of recycling and resuing ahead of them. But Amtrak needs single-level sleepers.
ACY can probably judge what would happe to Auto Train patronage if total runnjing time including hotel layover was 34 hours instead of 22. And remember that four sets of equipment would be required, not just two, if daily serivce were to be maintained..
daveklepperAmtrak did not buy single-level sleepers
What were/are the ~50 Viewliner I sleepers then?
Another point which I and CMStP&P overlooked is the growth in passenger ridership. Most has been in the NEC and the short corridors, not LD services. Yet Amtrak's Viewliner II order provides nothing for those growth areas.
Much is made on here of a shortage of sleepers, but on today's CZ to DEN there is one coach seat but roomettes are available. Ditto thru Tuesday, and on one date, only sleeper space is available.
CMStPnP BTW, I would argue the VIA Rail Canada Skeena which has no sleeping cars but which halts overnight between Jasper and Prince Rupert. Produces far more revenue per passenger when it runs near full than ANY LD Amtrak train in the lower 48. How can I say that? Three classes of coach fares.......which most in this thread are saying is not feasible. Already proven feasible by VIA Rail Canada....on a Long Distance train with no sleepers attached. Amtrak already has an example to the North to look at in this respect. Another item I would be curious about is if halting the Skeena for overnight hotel accomodations really costs a lot more than running the train straight through. I am willing to bet that it is cheaper with the union contracts and the fact that the equipment can be inspected and maintained overnight during the layover..........so is it really a hit on equipment productivity for a Long Distance train to halt at night for hotel accomodations? It's a hit on schedule but how many passengers really care with a 48 hour or longer train schedule if the train stops for an overnight? Wonder if the passengers on Auto Train would care that much if say the train dropped all it's sleepers and halted in South Carolina for an overnight and then resumed the next morning.......similar to the Skeena. Would the 10-12 hour layover really make a huge difference in a client deciding to take that train or not?
Those who pay Touring fare have not only a Panorama car (with windows that curve into the roof) but also a Park car (dome observation), and two meals are provided in the fare.
I do not doubt that hotel operators in Florence would be glad to have the overnight business every night, though if Auto Train were operated in such a manner.
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