As I stated above. Amtrak should compromise on this issue. Most motels and hotels both here and in Europe now offer a free breadfast with the room charge. Amtrak should do the same. Keep the diner. For breakfast just offer a buffet for all passengers and they can either eat at a table in the diner, cafe lounge or just take it back to their seat or room. For sleeping car passengers just offer one meal a day other than breadfast. Sitting on a train all day one does not need nor want three full meals a day. Will Amtrak look at something like this? Probably not as they only care about the NEC. I think their plan is to downgrade the LD trains into Greyhound buses on rails.
Sunnyland I would't want to pay a high price for a meal either. When 2 friends and I went UP City of St. L to CA, we packed a bunch of snacks, so we didn't have to buy much. One friend brought a bunch of hard boiled eggs, peanut butter and crackers.We were traveling in a Pullman bedroom so all 3 of us could sit together.
I would't want to pay a high price for a meal either. When 2 friends and I went UP City of St. L to CA, we packed a bunch of snacks, so we didn't have to buy much. One friend brought a bunch of hard boiled eggs, peanut butter and crackers.We were traveling in a Pullman bedroom so all 3 of us could sit together.
LION is not a fan of Bring-Your-One-Dinners...
And the Diner done NOT need to cater to the poor, It is supposed to be a dining experience for those who as can afford it, and as such higher prices are quite tollerable.
IF LION HAD TO DESIGN LD Food Service... him would have a dining level of open seating, and a food service line, not unlike a fast food joint where patrons would pick up their meals and carry them to the table (or to their seats). Entries would be simple, mostly pre-cooked, but with things like breakfast eggs, french toast or pancakes made fresh.
Noon meal may be an array of soups and salads with a sandwich system such as might be found at Quiznos.
Evening meal might be roasts and vegitables, with perhaps beef, pastrami, corned beef, turkey and ham as offerings. Some nice mashed potatoes or rice, and a simple vegitable such as corn, peas or green beans. These would all be pre-cooked and served as people pass through the serving line.
If you want high end service there might be a small dining room, perhaps in part of a sleeper car, where a steward would bring you basically the same items that were available in the diner, for a price that would knock your socks off.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
So I will start again by saying I am no means an expert on Amtrak Dining Car service.
LION, the problem your going to run into here is that when you increase prices in the dinning car the riding public on the train will use it less. Further, current ridership on Amtrak trains is not enough to cover the fixed costs of a Diner in most cases I suspect. I used to run a fast casual sub shop and for me 100 covers a day (100 diners) was needed to make a marginal profit. 150 covers meant a pretty decent profit. My labor costs compared to Amtrak staff? $7.50 and above but mostly averaged $8 to 8.50 hourly, plus min health and dental offered via the franchisor plus 401k with 7% match offered by me. Nobody took the 401k at that hourly rate even though it meant an additional 3.5% pay. Anyways with all that bundled together my labor cost per person is less than half what Amtrak pays for the Dining Car attendents. My lease costs per month were approx $10,000. No way can you support maintenence and operational costs on a railroad dining car for so little. My average check was approx $9.75 to $10.50. That is fairly steep for a Sub Sandwich lunch (sandwich, fries and soft drink). At that price I had about 20% of my walk-ins.......walk right back out again. Had a Sonic right next door and they did not walk into their instead of my place so I was price competitive in regards to my location.
So with that I am curious why we still have people saying dining car service can be profitable on LD trains. It is just not reality given current ridership levels.
Some of you folks say that dining car service can be expanded and your right it can but with the limited audience on the train.........how much expansion? If I was in a Mall I can put portions of my hot subs on a platter and walk out among the crowds offering samples (this would boost walk-in traffic 20% or more usually). I can run around to local hotels and meet with their F&B manager and talk about catering events. You know that just one or two catering events moderately sized would cover my profitability for the entire day. How do you cater on an Amtrak train? Catering for a sub shop can boost sales by up to 60% vs walk in traffic. So expanding sales on an Amtrak train is a very limited solution.
On top of all of the above. Most franchisees or restaurants refresh their cooking equipment at least every 12-15 years. When was the last time you heard of a Superliner Diner in the shop to have it's kitchen updated. I'll bet you most are using the same stuff they rolled out of the shop with originally on build date. Right there is another area that if some money was spent dining service could be made more efficient with newer technology but I doubt it will be made profitable.
FWIW: Quiznos is in serious trouble BTW for ripping off Franchisees and might be headed for bankruptcy. You can buy an operating Quiznos via a local Business broker for as low as $30,000 in some cases in Dallas. Going rate for a new franchise is a lot higher. But that kind of selling price exists in other major cities in good locations and shows you what the franchisees think of the franchisor and the ability to make money.
CMStPnPSome of you folks say that dining car service can be expanded and your right it can but with the limited audience on the train.........how much expansion? If I was in a Mall I can put portions of my hot subs on a platter and walk out among the crowds offering samples (this would boost walk-in traffic 20% or more usually). I can run around to local hotels and meet with their F&B manager and talk about catering events. You know that just one or two catering events moderately sized would cover my profitability for the entire day. How do you cater on an Amtrak train? Catering for a sub shop can boost sales by up to 60% vs walk in traffic. So expanding sales on an Amtrak train is a very limited solution.
The problem is Amtrak isn't good at running their dining cars - they bleed red ink.
The solution, I think, would be to bid it out. It may turn out Amtrak would have to provide a subsidy to the winner - say a buck or two per meal served. That would slow the bleeding and provide a better meal. A win-win!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndThe problem is Amtrak isn't good at running their dining cars - they bleed red ink. The solution, I think, would be to bid it out. It may turn out Amtrak would have to provide a subsidy to the winner - say a buck or two per meal served. That would slow the bleeding and provide a better meal. A win-win!
I think that is a good idea and what I would suggest is the food contractor on the dining car also gets choice locations at Amtrak owned stations bundled into one contract. That way if they get both contracts as a combo they can potentially make money on the overall contract while losing money on the dining car. That is what I would do if I were running the railroad.
Additionally would encourage some of the larger towns to allow space in their depot or on depot land or near the depot in the town for a food concession from that same vendor.
Imagine that nationwide like the old Harvey chain?
Now if they got good at it, I could even imagine them gutting most of the kitchen level on the Superliner car and replacing with additional dining car seats, coach seats or even turn it into a baggage area.
Also I would shut down the 12 Amtrak Commissarys as part of the deal once the system was proven. For the light frequency of Amtrak LD trains and relatively light patronage on each LD train that still exists those 12 Commissaries have to be a huge money pit.
Imagine running the St. Paul or Seattle Commissary for example. How long does it take to make approx 1200-1500 meals or stock for such? Probably 4 hours or less with 3-4 people and I bet they are being paid for a full days work and staff a lot higher than that..
CMStPnP oltmannd The problem is Amtrak isn't good at running their dining cars - they bleed red ink. The solution, I think, would be to bid it out. It may turn out Amtrak would have to provide a subsidy to the winner - say a buck or two per meal served. That would slow the bleeding and provide a better meal. A win-win! I think that is a good idea and what I would suggest is the food contractor on the dining car also gets choice locations at Amtrak owned stations bundled into one contract. That way if they get both contracts as a combo they can potentially make money on the overall contract while losing money on the dining car. That is what I would do if I were running the railroad. Additionally would encourage some of the larger towns to allow space in their depot or on depot land or near the depot in the town for a food concession from that same vendor. Imagine that nationwide like the old Harvey chain? Now if they got good at it, I could even imagine them gutting most of the kitchen level on the Superliner car and replacing with additional dining car seats, coach seats or even turn it into a baggage area. Also I would shut down the 12 Amtrak Commissarys as part of the deal once the system was proven. For the light frequency of Amtrak LD trains and relatively light patronage on each LD train that still exists those 12 Commissaries have to be a huge money pit. Imagine running the St. Paul or Seattle Commissary for example. How long does it take to make approx 1200-1500 meals or stock for such? Probably 4 hours or less with 3-4 people and I bet they are being paid for a full days work and staff a lot higher than that..
oltmannd The problem is Amtrak isn't good at running their dining cars - they bleed red ink. The solution, I think, would be to bid it out. It may turn out Amtrak would have to provide a subsidy to the winner - say a buck or two per meal served. That would slow the bleeding and provide a better meal. A win-win!
[Amended to reflect CMStP&P's correction] Great points, both of you. The examples reflect Amtrak's "continuing to do things that way because we've always done things that way" philosophy. Amtrak's food service does not need to make a profit (nor should it, IMO), but running an operation that way is simply ridiculous.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Oops, I made a mistake and thats what I get from going off memory. St. Paul does not have a commissary. Here is a full presentation (somewhat dated) on Amtrak's Food Service you can page through.
http://rail.transportation.org/SiteCollectionDocuments/Amtrak%20Food%20%20Beverage%20Presentation%20-%20SCORT%20Feb%202013.pdf
Look at how the fixed costs of the Commissary ownership and management is eating into Revenue............what I suspected.
Also check out OBS or On Board Service Labor costs as a percentage. Again what I suspected about break even at best although it now looks like if they dump the Commissaries and their costs they might do a lot better but some of those costs might be replicated by shifting to a non-Amtrak Aramark Commissary.
FYI SKU's are roughly a food product represented on one of the charts. I believe the SKU number is under the bar code of a food item. Gee, no brainer to consolidate those.......and that took until 2011 to 2012 to figure out?
A fix should not require a wholesale destruction of the product and service. Automats did not work out. Picnic cars do not satisfy. The only hard part about diner service is waiting for a seat to open up. Serve decent and good food at a fair price and people will be happy to buy it. Lots of other franchises on land can show how to do it.
dmikee A fix should not require a wholesale destruction of the product and service. Automats did not work out. Picnic cars do not satisfy. The only hard part about diner service is waiting for a seat to open up. Serve decent and good food at a fair price and people will be happy to buy it. Lots of other franchises on land can show how to do it.
Much easier said than done.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If the railroads could not make dining-car service profitable in the 1920's, why does everybody think that Amtrak is going to do any better? It also needs to be asked whether the market demands a fine-dining experience or is this just more nostalgic pontificating from NARP.
CSSHEGEWISCH If the railroads could not make dining-car service profitable in the 1920's, why does everybody think that Amtrak is going to do any better? It also needs to be asked whether the market demands a fine-dining experience or is this just more nostalgic pontificating from NARP.
It all depends upon who is asked. Here (on the forum) the nostalgia demand is strong but most potential riders would be satisfied with a contracted, franchised food service on trains with a route duration of more than some specified amount, maybe >4 or 5 hours? Breaking even should be the objective, charging the cost, no less, no more. Amtrak is a transportation service, not the food service sector. The airlines did not lose all their coach passengers when they dropped domestic food service.
Exactly, much of the general public thinks of rail as basicly bigger busses. They get on at point 'A' and get off at point 'B'. If most of the train is basic transportation then offer basic food service.
BOB WITHORN Exactly, much of the general public thinks of rail as basicly bigger busses. They get on at point 'A' and get off at point 'B'. If most of the train is basic transportation then offer basic food service.
I have to add as a one or two time Greyhound rider, even the LD Buses stop to eat at a local eatery for the passengers. So if the bus industry is the model we are following.......YES THEY OFFER ACCESS TO FOOD ON THEIR LD ROUTES. Now with Greyhound it was usually a crap place like a McDonalds or Diary Queen that also happened to be a bus stop where they could layover for 20-30 min.
Around 1984, I rode Greyhound from the west coast to the east coast. Almost every meal stop was at a Burger King. By the time the trip was over, I was so sick of Burger King that I couldn't stand to smell one from a block away for several years. Even now, I rarely can stomach the aroma (odor?) of one of their restaurants.
Money aside, is that what we want to do to rail passengers?
Tom
How many of us have seen the pictures of, and read the descriptions of meal stops made in the days before diners were invented? Were we to go back to meal stops, could we expect the eateries to be comparable to the Fred Harvey dining rooms? Or would they be burger joints?
Johnny
Deggesty How many of us have seen the pictures of, and read the descriptions of meal stops made in the days before diners were invented? Were we to go back to meal stops, could we expect the eateries to be comparable to the Fred Harvey dining rooms? Or would they be burger joints?
Who is going to pay for the track space for a passenger train stopped for 30 minute to an hour for a meal stop?
Track space costs money! If you are on MY railroad, you are not stopping on MY Main track or passing siding for that length of time.
Bus drivers make meal stops at restaurants that feed the driver for free.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
BaltACD Deggesty How many of us have seen the pictures of, and read the descriptions of meal stops made in the days before diners were invented? Were we to go back to meal stops, could we expect the eateries to be comparable to the Fred Harvey dining rooms? Or would they be burger joints? Who is going to pay for the track space for a passenger train stopped for 30 minute to an hour for a meal stop? Track space costs money! If you are on MY railroad, you are not stopping on MY Main track or passing siding for that length of time.
A lot of straw man arguments.
1. Nobody is suggesting passenger trains should make food stops. When that was the practice 150 or more years ago, train speeds were slow, 26-32 mph average for passenger trains.
2. Most folks on here have suggested quality, contracted food services, not Burger King or Mickey Ds.
3. Perhaps what we need is something more akin to a diner (as in the movie) rather than a (fine) dining car.
In small towns around the country there are local diners made from old rail cars.
Why cannot Amtrak put those two thoughts together and lease, at cost, otherwise empty rail cars to restaurant chains to complete and operate. It would be in Amtrak's best interest to haul it in the consist for free, like theey do baggage cars, with the restaurant chain paying all the costs of actually staffing and operating it.
Given enough freedom, I bet someone could make it profitable.
What is not understood by many is the over all costs of operating a restaurant of any kind. Then add to that doing it in a moving vehicle like an airplane or train. Your cost structure changes in terms of equipment, labor, purchasing and storing of food and utensils. Then add to that the limited number of customers at any given time, the wide economic and social tastes of those customers, and you are almost in a lose/lose situation. There is a difference between fast food and fast food franchises, middle class chain names, and fine dining establishments. It is hard enough to operate one of those restaurants in any given stationary location surrounded by tens of thousands if not millions of people and be successful. Put any one of those restaurants in a train with fewer than 500 perhaps no more than 100 potential customers and you lose the bet. Should trains have dining services? My thought is yes. Can it be done right? It would take Merlin to figure out what is needed on a train by train, hour by hour, basis. So, unless one wants to take the time to do the home work, there is no answer. And as long as it is a political and not a business decision, the answer will always be wrong.
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If we are talking corridor trains then a bistro car that serves sandwiches and drinks will do. That is all you will find on a European train. But here in the US we have long distances to cover outside the corridors and the trains take 40+ hours to make their run or two nights out. Even in the Florida corridor the train is more than just an overnight run. So for those trains a diner is necessary. Like I said above more than once, the answer is to offer a free breakfast buffet to all passengers and include the price in the ticket costs. For sleeping car passengers offer one free meal a day at the time of their choosing, either lunch or dinner. Coach passengers can buy a meal at a reasonable price. If more is needed there are always the lounge car snacks and drinks. Amtrak is obsessed with ridership numbers rather than offering a good package. No one taking a LD train is doing it to save time as they can fly for about the same costs and be there in a few hours. So the trip should be enjoyable and eating on a moving train is part of it.
schlimm A lot of straw man arguments. 1. Nobody is suggesting passenger trains should make food stops. When that was the practice 150 or more years ago, train speeds were slow, 26-32 mph average for passenger trains. 2. Most folks on here have suggested quality, contracted food services, not Burger King or Mickey Ds. 3. Perhaps what we need is something more akin to a diner (as in the movie) rather than a (fine) dining car.
Yes, yes and yes!
Contract it out! Even if you have to pay people to sit at home for a half dozen years. The sooner you do it, the sooner it's over.
Phoebe Vet In small towns around the country there are local diners made from old rail cars. Why cannot Amtrak put those two thoughts together and lease, at cost, otherwise empty rail cars to restaurant chains to complete and operate. It would be in Amtrak's best interest to haul it in the consist for free, like theey do baggage cars, with the restaurant chain paying all the costs of actually staffing and operating it. Given enough freedom, I bet someone could make it profitable.
Because back to my original argument and speaking as a Franchisee with experience. A restaurantuer will not open a restaurant or dining car with a cap on the number of covers achieveable as what you have on most long distance passenger trains. Restaurantuers want to be able to expand market share via marketing, word of mouth, increased foot traffic, etc. Please explain how this is attractive to a chain restaurant when the passenger loads are typically 200-300 stomachs MAX? That is barely break even for most chains given that they do not all eat breakfest, lunch and dinner. Also on most long distance trains, how many riders are on for the entire trip of the train vs just point to point.
henry6 What is not understood by many is the over all costs of operating a restaurant of any kind. Then add to that doing it in a moving vehicle like an airplane or train. Your cost structure changes in terms of equipment, labor, purchasing and storing of food and utensils. Then add to that the limited number of customers at any given time, the wide economic and social tastes of those customers, and you are almost in a lose/lose situation. There is a difference between fast food and fast food franchises, middle class chain names, and fine dining establishments. It is hard enough to operate one of those restaurants in any given stationary location surrounded by tens of thousands if not millions of people and be successful. Put any one of those restaurants in a train with fewer than 500 perhaps no more than 100 potential customers and you lose the bet. Should trains have dining services? My thought is yes. Can it be done right? It would take Merlin to figure out what is needed on a train by train, hour by hour, basis. So, unless one wants to take the time to do the home work, there is no answer. And as long as it is a political and not a business decision, the answer will always be wrong.
BINGO! BTDT right here with a premium sub chain. Even with elevated prices it was tough with 200 covers to break even. While they were good tasting subs nobody is going to put up with that limited menu more than two meals in a row.
oltmanndYes, yes and yes! Contract it out! Even if you have to pay people to sit at home for a half dozen years. The sooner you do it, the sooner it's over.
I think that can be done as well in regards to Bistro car but you have to bundle something else into the deal to make it more attractive, IMO. Like for example prime locations in Amtrak stations.
Schlimm:
I agree nobody is openly suggesting that Burger King or McD should be the solution. At least not in so many words. But the emphasis is on cost efficiency, labor saving, and time saving. The logical conclusion to that thinking is --- guess what? --- Burger King and McDonald's.
I don't know the answer. I do know that I haven't seen the answer here.
CMStPnPPlease explain how this is attractive to a chain restaurant when the passenger loads are typically 200-300 stomachs MAX? That is barely break even for most chains given that they do not all eat breakfest, lunch and dinner. Also on most long distance trains, how many riders are on for the entire trip of the train vs just point to point.
You don't have to break even - only lose less money than Amtrak.
And, think of this as a catering job for an existing shop - if you are thinking about the cafe.
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