I beg to differ with your experience on the CZ. I took my family on the CZ in 1968 and the experience was excellent. Our Steward was a gentleman who if pictured in the the book "PORTRAIT OF A SILVER LADY" I think his name was something like Lundgren. All the food was good, the service was spot on as far as I could see with cloth napkins, etc. No deminishment of quality that I saw. Even the SP's Cascade dining car was good even though SP was trying to kill it. They had stopped checked interstate baggage service even though they had intrastate baggage service and all our bags had to carried in our car. I don't think I lack in ability to detect bad service or food. Not only did we not have an AUTOMAT car, we had a first rate diner. Crew & Food.
I do agree that the VIA diners are excellent. Though the food is well prepared, they are not as high cost of some entre's as most restaurants. I don't recall steaks on the menu. But the braised beef was to die for. On my trip on the Canadian, leaving Toronto, the train had three locomotives, & 28 cars: baggage, 2 coaches, skyline for coach, then three sleepers, skyline, diner, six sleepers, skyline, diner, six sleepers, skyline, diner, three sleepers, and a park car. Longest passenger train I ever saw.
In the 1960s, especially latter half, impossible to best the Super Chief, and the continuing pride and care to this legend by the AT&SF. Indeed, when still a Santa Fe operation in 1972 under Amtrak, on arrival day into Chicago, I woke-up late and sought out lunch just before Joliet. Can you believe the steward re-lit the fires and served up a terrific burger/fries? And cocktails were still prepared in the Pleasure Dome and served in glassware.
However, by 1967, meals on the DZ and CZ were not spectacular, and never that good on the Twin Cities Zephyrs. To avoid the Q on my twice per summer trips to Minneapolis visiting my brother in college/med school between 1962-1966, I booked the WB North Coast Limited to enjoy a terrific roast beef dinner--and that potato the size of the table. Returning to Chicago, I would book the EB Empire Buider to enjoy a great breakfast and hamburger lunch in the diner, although the Ranch Car was always inviting. WB Empire Builder to Minnepaolis also served up a terrific roast beef dinner.
Even by 1963, The General served barely palatable meals in its twin-unit diner--chopped steak dinner dry; breakfast greasy. What made-up for that was lunch and dinner in 1961 aboard the EB Twin Cities 400 from Minneapolis to Evanston--fresh fish both meals. Can never forget a chicken salad sandwich lunch in the diner of the bi-level Fambeau 400 from Evanston to Milwaukee, also in 1961.
However, what still stands out in my mind was dinner and breakfast aboard the EB Royal Gorge between Salt Lake City-Colorado Springs in 1957. Not only a 10 minute stop in the Gorge to disembark right on the ballast (no attorneys then?), but rumor was that the Rocky Mountian brook trout was purchased en route. Also, a trip aboard the Western Star in 1959 from Chicago-Glacier Park. Every meal in the GN diner terrific. And the lounge/grill made the best malts in the afternoon.
So, will Amtrak ever learn to benchmark to all that's left in North American railroad dining--VIA Rail Canada?
Around the beginning of Amtrak (I don't remember whether it was before or after), I was in Washington when the train came in from Chicago. A "train" of baggage carts came down the platform, and riding up on top of a pile of luggage was Pearlie May herself, smiling and waving to one and all. I think it was better than seeing the Queen of England, or any President, in a parade.
Tom
highgreen: Your anecdote about meeting Pearl Bailey in the PRR diner confirms everything I ever thought about her. And she asked you to sit at her table? How cool was that?
And I know just what you mean about those well-laid tables on the NYC. Simply elegant, right to the end and beyond (for a short while) on Amtrak.
This thread makes me think I'm glad to be as old as I am; I've experienced a lot of pleasure in dining cars over the decades.
Many memories-B&O, IC, Pennsy, NYC, C of G, ACL, Wabash, N&W, GTW, CN in eastern Canada- but we were not in first class trains because of Dad's pass. But the food was always good and it was fun to ride along and watch the scenery while eating. UP had a diner on City of St. Louis that also had a counter, not just the traditional tables. Riding the original CZ with a tour group and the Zephyrettes coming around to take our dining reservation.
Riding with 2 friends on UP City of Los Angeles all Pullman train and sitting in a dome diner. We had taken the SP Daylight down the coast and they had an automat with sandwiches in the cafe car.
Foods I do remember-French Toast, Bread Pudding, seafood and beef. And Dad writing down what we wanted and the maitre d' taking it from him and reading it to the waiter. We were told that dated from the time when the waiters could not read or write and it was still being done in 50's and 60's when we were riding.
Two friends and I rode the CP Canadian, classy scenery and classy food. Came back on the CN Super-Continental but because we took the Daynighter coach with reclining seats-a stepup from regular coach-but not as pricey as Pullman- we were not allowed to eat in the regular diner, had to go to the snack car. I was not happy and told them so. First time a line had ever been drawn about using the diner. All the US railroads let people from both sections in the car and so did CP-although we did have Pullman sleepers. But there was no separate diner for coach.
In August, 1965 I took NYC #16, the EB Ohio State Limited, from Columbus to New York. As a college kid scraping by, I traveled in coach but I wasn't going to miss the chance for a good dining car breakfast, my first (although I had taken many shorter day trips by train in Ohio).
I entered the diner as we were gliding along the beautiful Hudson River between Albany and NYC. The steward, cheerily singing "Hello Dolly!", greeted and seated me. I soon learned about the railroad way of printing one's order on a pad. Soon enough, on a table set with fresh linen and a gleaming silver service, I had set before me my bacon and scrambled eggs, with orange juice and piping hot coffee. What a treat, as I looked out on the magnificent Hudson rolling by!
After visiting my friend, I returned home to Columbus on PRR's Spirit of St. Louis. Knowing now what I'd been missing, I treated myself to a delicious dining car dinner somewhere near Harrisburg, although I've forgotton the details of that - no offense to the Pennsy.
In the late 1970's, I traveled from Chicago to Crestline, OH on Amtrak and was seated for dinner across from a young couple who told me that entertainer Pearl Bailey was dining a few tables back. I'd heard that Pearl Bailey never liked flying and preferred rail travel. Young and starstruck, I rudely approached her table, where she and her children were awaiting their food. To my surprise, Ms. Bailey warmly invited me to sit down and join her in the meal. I explained that I'd already ordered at another table, but we had a warm, if brief, conversation. It ended this way: Ms. Bailey: "I'm on my way to Atlanta to sing the Star Spangled Banner at the game where Hank Aaron is gonna get his record breaking home run!" [Which he did.] Me: "Oh, Ms. Bailey, I hope none of those streakers runs through the park while you're singing." Ms. Bailey: "Oh, honey, I may not be that old yet, but I *am* too old for that!"
I rode Milwaukee Road's Morning Hiawatha in April of 1971 a couple of weeks before Amtrak. The railroad operated a buffeteria coach whic by now had food served on sturdy paper plates that was cooked at a grill. You ordered your food, paid the steward, then proceeded to an empty table. The hot food was served by one of the waiters. I rememeber having ham and scrambled eggs and it was very good. The train ride from Minneapolis to Chicago was a very somber experience especially in the buffeteria. The crew faceda very uncertain future after May 1. The Afternoon Hiawatha had a full diner until the end.
cefinkjr I don't remember what I ate but I do recall an incident in 1967 on The Broad Way that said a lot about PRR service on their flagship train. I had just been hired by NYC and treated myself (on NYC's dime ) to a trip from New York to Pittsburgh and dinner on The Broad Way. A complimentary large, red apple (with the bottom sliced off so it wouldn't roll) and a full pack (of 20) Benson & Hedges cigarettes were served on a small plate after dinner. To appreciate this you need to remember that Benson & Hedges was a premium brand at the time and that the airlines were then serving your meal on your lap with a complimentary pack of 4 Marlboros or some other common brand. When this apple and pack of cigarettes was placed in front of a gentleman across the aisle from me, he said to the waiter, "Pardon me, but I don't smoke cigarettes. Would you have a cigar?". Like a magician making something appear out of thin air (OK, his breast pocket), the waiter produced a premium Dutch Master cigar and, of course, lit it for the gentleman. PRR did know how to do some things right.
I don't remember what I ate but I do recall an incident in 1967 on The Broad Way that said a lot about PRR service on their flagship train. I had just been hired by NYC and treated myself (on NYC's dime ) to a trip from New York to Pittsburgh and dinner on The Broad Way.
A complimentary large, red apple (with the bottom sliced off so it wouldn't roll) and a full pack (of 20) Benson & Hedges cigarettes were served on a small plate after dinner. To appreciate this you need to remember that Benson & Hedges was a premium brand at the time and that the airlines were then serving your meal on your lap with a complimentary pack of 4 Marlboros or some other common brand.
When this apple and pack of cigarettes was placed in front of a gentleman across the aisle from me, he said to the waiter, "Pardon me, but I don't smoke cigarettes. Would you have a cigar?". Like a magician making something appear out of thin air (OK, his breast pocket), the waiter produced a premium Dutch Master cigar and, of course, lit it for the gentleman.
PRR did know how to do some things right.
Thank you for this story, which is doubly impressive for having taken place so near the end. By this late hour the Pennsy knew as well as anybody that it was game over, but they elected to stay with their standards. That is oldfashioned character!
Agree that the PRR Broadway was a classy operation, despite most of the glamor people choosing the 20th Century. I preferred the single-rooms in a Creek-class sleepers to regular roomettes, with the cost only a bit more. The Broadway had them, and the 20th Century did not. This was in my salad Bolt Beranek and Newman days . But when Pres. of KLepper Marshall King and wanting to make every penny count, the Slumbercoach on the 20th Century was a more tolerable downgrade that a coach seat on the General. But all the diners on these trains were great.
ChuckAllen, TX
ACY Many B&O meals. Seafood was always great on the Baltimore-based diners. I almost always got the baked apple for dessert. Riding north from Evansville, Indiana on the C&EI (the Hummingbird, which had come up from the south on the L&N) I ordered breakfast on an L&N diner. When it was served, I saw a blob of white stuff on my plate and asked the waiter what it was. "Them's grits!" he replied, obviously shocked that this northern boy didn't know. Then he graciously showed me how to load them up with butter and a little salt & pepper. I can't say I fell in love with grits, but my introduction to them was a pleasure. A wonderful dinner on PRR's General. I think I had roast beef. It was marred by the dessert, which was under-ripe cantaloupe. I didn't complain. Then as now, the opportunity to dine with someone completely new and different is a special experience that too many Americans never get to have. Tom, I also enjoyed breakfasts on L&N diners. Favorite was country ham breakfast with grits and red-eye gravy. This gravy is made from drippings form cooking ham and is difficult to find in today's restaurants .
Many B&O meals. Seafood was always great on the Baltimore-based diners. I almost always got the baked apple for dessert.
Riding north from Evansville, Indiana on the C&EI (the Hummingbird, which had come up from the south on the L&N) I ordered breakfast on an L&N diner. When it was served, I saw a blob of white stuff on my plate and asked the waiter what it was. "Them's grits!" he replied, obviously shocked that this northern boy didn't know. Then he graciously showed me how to load them up with butter and a little salt & pepper. I can't say I fell in love with grits, but my introduction to them was a pleasure.
A wonderful dinner on PRR's General. I think I had roast beef. It was marred by the dessert, which was under-ripe cantaloupe. I didn't complain.
Then as now, the opportunity to dine with someone completely new and different is a special experience that too many Americans never get to have.
Tom, I also enjoyed breakfasts on L&N diners. Favorite was country ham breakfast with grits and red-eye gravy. This gravy is made from drippings form cooking ham and is difficult to find in today's restaurants
.
schlimmYou know the Milwaukee Road quite well. How were their diners? Never heard much about them.
Heh, too young. I was a little kid in 1969-1970. I remember 1970 onwards and a few 1969 travels, so only the last year or two and by that time most Milwaukee diners were regulated to storage at that point. Rode mostly the UP gray and yellow trains between Chicago and Milwaukee and I believe they had some kind of snack bar service but no full service diner. You know their internal Coach colors were awful and kind of sexist. Powder blue for the Mens john, Pink for the Ladies room and then those awful pastel colors throughout the rest of the car. The birch wood accents with the art deco chrome were nice though around the windows, luggage racks, and end of car. Mostly rode with my Dad on trips to the Merchandise Mart to buy furniture for his offices or for Christmas shopping trips around Thanksgiving.
I remember the end of car Milwaukee vestibule doors you had to crank on the door lever and push really hard as there was no hydraulic assist, you were pushing the full weight of the steel vestibule door.......it would spring shut though behind you. Same with the restroom doors......the conductor would lock the restroom as we approached the station between Milwaukee-Chicago then (only one stop, they either did not stop at Sturtevant or Glenview back then.....can't remember but that is also why their timing was faster between Chicago and Milwaukee) unlock after, very laborious but one time he forgot to check if a passenger was inside and locked the passenger in and he started to pound on the door.
Remember seeing my siblings off on the Milwaukee to Oshkosh C&NW Bi-Level....not sure what the name of the train was but it was fairly long about 6-7 bi-levels in 1969 or 1970. Took only 2 hours to get from Downtown Milwaukee to Downtown station in Oshkosh then on the C&NW. I believe the train was routed over Milwaukee via North Milwaukee Junction and North a ways on the Milwaukee Road and linked up with the C&NW line somehow that way. By this time the C&NW passenger trackage on the lakefront was out of service. C&NW did have a single level full service diner on whatever that train was that served Oshkosh from Milwaukee. It departed I think either 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. can't remember that much even it was late morning or early afternoon.
C&NW trains would join the Milwaukee main before the current Amtrak station and then depart it somewhere after North Milwaukee Junction on the Milwaukee North Line out of Milwaukee. The C&NW passenger line cutoff is still in place along with the switch to the former Milwaukee Road mainline just South of the Amtrak Station. I think CP uses it for access to Jones Island and the Port of Milwaukee. Not sure if the same is true where the C&NW trains left the Milwaukee Road in North Milwaukee or if UP ripped that up.
UPDATE: Milwaukee Road to C&NW Oshkosh line connection is East of Highway 145 and North of Donges Bay Road....visible on Mapquest at least. Just after the line crosses into Washington County from Milwaukee County. Train turning Wye in place on Milwaukee just South of the switch, not sure what that was used for.
GREG WEBER My fondest memory is of the Blueberry pancakes on CNW's Kate Shelley. I've never tasted their equal!
My fondest memory is of the Blueberry pancakes on CNW's Kate Shelley. I've never tasted their equal!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I also agree about the Rocky Mountain Trout on the CZ and RGZ. Ordered it whenevery I could, about 30 times in total. I still regard the Denver - StLakeC trip as heaven on earth. Even with Amtrak. RGZ menue scans are on the hard drive of the computer I am currently using. With the right background color.
An experience I remember was in the early 50's while in highschool, I took a day trip from Cincinnati Toledo going via the NYC & returning on B&O's Cincinnatian. Steam both ways. I had a more educated friend with me and ate dinner in the Observation/Lounge/Dining car on the southbound trip. After the meal the waiter brought us a small silver bowl with warm water in it and napkins. Fortunatly, my friend knew what a finger bowl was because I didn't. Wish I could remember what we ate.
In 1968, I took my family (Wife and 7 yr old son and 3 yr old daughter on the CZ to California. As noted by another the diner, food, and service was something the three railroads could be proud of.On the way back, we took the Cascade from Oakland to Seattle, and then the Empire Builder back to Chicago. My son got nauseous from the fumes in the Cascade tunnel and I had to take him to our room. After he got over it he was humgry and so we went to the Ranch car where he had a BLT. He claimed it was the best he ever had.
In the early seventies, when the Southern's 4501 ran a trip from Chattanoga to Huntsville, He & I rode the Greyhound to Chattanoga, then on to New Orleans after the 4501 trip. Coming back to Chicago we rode Amtraks' City of New Orleans which consisted of heritage Budd equipment but had three or four former Santa Fe El Capitan highlevel coaches on the end. The first was a transition car. These cars were to be used North of Memphis. After some pleading, the conductor agreed to let us ride in them. In front of the ElCap cars was the diner.In the morning. we came down for breakfast of the best French Toast. Exta thick and served just right.
Later, solo I took a trip on the Rio Grande's Zepher and I had the same steward, that we had had. His picture is in the book PORTRAIT OF A SILVER LADY. I think his name was Lundgren. And yes, I had the trout and it was excellent. After WWII, the PRR bought a large fleet of new equipment and among them were many new Dining cars. A lot of two car sets with a full car of tables and the second car of kitchen and dorm. While in college, in Cincinnati, I rode to Columbus to visit a classmate and while eating in the diner, seated across from a man who claimed to be and engineer designing bra's> I think he was pulling my leg but it made for a fascinating trip.
I'm sorry I can't remember most of the food I ate but it was all evcellent. Eating in the diner while passing cars on the hidhway in the rain or passing through the mountains is a wonderful way to enjoy food. The Canadian still provides that experience.
I'll never forget my first meal in a dining car. It was in 1942 in a CofG diner on the Southland highballing from Macon to Atlanta.
Fresh cut flowers adorned the table, the dishes were real china and the silverware was heavyweight sterling emblazoned with CofG on each handle. Fresh squeezed orange juice was followed by a generous slice of country ham surrounded by red eye gravy with two fried eggs on top. Grits topped with a big dollop of butter were served in a side dish. A corn meal muffin was served in its open top cast iron baking dish which was shaped like an ear of corn. I marveled how the waiters balanced their serving trays and delighted in glimpsing the big Mountain type engine as it rounded the many curves. Over the ensuing years I've had many more elaborate meals but this one remains my fondest memory.
Mark
I had a good dining experience on Amtrak's montrealer, maybe in the late 90's. A good dinner coming out of DC, a hot breakfast just rolling Thur Vermont on a winters day.
lvt1000 The meals stayed inventive and interesting into the early years of Amtrak. Personally, when pancakes were on the menu in the diner of PC Train #48 I was quite happy. The cheeseburger on the Amtrak #31 served with fresh brewed ice tea was also a favorite. In short there were some nice experiences to be had.
The meals stayed inventive and interesting into the early years of Amtrak. Personally, when pancakes were on the menu in the diner of PC Train #48 I was quite happy. The cheeseburger on the Amtrak #31 served with fresh brewed ice tea was also a favorite. In short there were some nice experiences to be had.
Another pleasant dining experience came when I rode the Sunset Limited from New Orleans to Los Angeles in 1980; the waiter was an old hand who knew his stuff, and the food was good.
I well remember the excellent service the UP provided when I rode from Portland to Chicago in April of 1971; both diners provided excellent food and service (but I was unable to have my first evening's dinner companion the second evening--she detrained in Boise, but I made up for that the following year when we had two breakfasts, three lunches, and two dinners together, with the last two meals being eaten on the Rio Grande Zephyr, which presented excellent food and service).
I enjoyed eating in N&W diners on the Pelican; after I ate one lunch, the waiter brought me a finger bowl (the only time that I had the use of one; no, I did not try to drink the water in it). My first dinner in the diner was an excellent club sandwich (about the least expensive item on the menu) on the Royal Palm as my brother and I left Chattanooga in the summer of 1951. I enjoyed eating various meals in the diners of other roads--L&N, SAL, KCS, ACL, SLSF, MP, A&WP, NH, B&O, NYC, E-L, IC, CG, GM&O, Wabash, C&O, CB&Q, GN, NP, SP&S, and that of the company that provided breakfast service on the Federal--it was in 1969 that I ate on that train, so it was not Pullman. Some cars were cafe lounges--but the meals were still good, if not excellent.
As to grits, I do not remember eating grits in any diner until Amtrak made that a staple on the breakfast menu.
Johnny
Ivy your 100% correct, Amtrak did have some good items on the menu.
Mine was the NYNH&H, which, according to some sources, was making money on it's food service up until its demise. While I was post "best times" on the NH, I did ride many, many times from Back Bay Station to Stamford, CT and enjoyed baked Boston Schrod and baked beans in the diner, served on china with silver coffee pot, etc. According to the receipe book I have from the NH, they had 70 different salads possible, all made aboard. The best BLT Club I had was on a PRR grill car out of WDC heading up to Stamford. The discovery of grits was similiar to mine on a trip to Alabama but, I fell in love with them and still enjoy them on my frequent trips to Chicago/Syracuse aboard the Lake Shore Limited...one of the few places in the north where grits are standard breakfast fare.
CMStPnP Lets not forget that the D&RGW operated a full service Diner into the 1980's on the Rio Grande Zephyr.......the menu item I remember most on that line was the Rocky Mountain Rainbow Trout.
Lets not forget that the D&RGW operated a full service Diner into the 1980's on the Rio Grande Zephyr.......the menu item I remember most on that line was the Rocky Mountain Rainbow Trout.
You know the Milwaukee Road quite well. How were their diners? Never heard much about them.
CSSHEGEWISCHCafe coaches and snack bars were probably more in tune with the market being served than a full-service dining car, especially among coach passengers
If memory serves me correctly, the CNW converted several full diners into cafe coaches and cafe lounge cars. Apparently it made more sense for the passengers needs (most trains runs were under 410 miles) and was obviously cheaper to operate.
Cafe coaches and snack bars were probably more in tune with the market being served than a full-service dining car, especially among coach passengers. George W. Hilton once observed, based on his own experiences, that a fair number of coach passengers managed to obtain sustenance without having to pay dining car prices.
Back in the days of my employment by Bolt Beranekand Newman, as an architectural acoustical consultant, I rode the Panama Limited a number of times, both directions Chi-NO, and also to and from Jackson and from Memphis. To be able to pay the ten bucks for The Kings Dinner, I did some creative expense account juggling, usually claiming taxi expenses when I had actually used public transit. Today, that is a no-no at the Yeshiva where I stury. (And of course,so would be the non-Kosher Kings Dinner.)
It was a very rare trip of the many I took when the dining car experience was not one of the high points if not the high point of the trip. Pre-Amtrak dining car food was just great. Even Penn Central managed to do just great on the Broadway. But let us not discuss what happened when diners were removed and replaced by coach cafe cars.
I recall some pleasant times in various dining cars.
1 The full-length one on El Capitan, which had tasty date bran muffins.
2.The dining car on the CZ. 1st class service.
3. An enjoyable ride in the dining car on the WB Afternoon Zephyr.
4. The dining car for breakfast on a NB City of Miami.
5. Vague memories of myself at 8, dining on the EB Pacemaker.
I also had good meals [breakfasts and dinners] on the General. Also good meals on the Silver Meteor and East Coast Champion wehen I rode them to/from NYC or Philly to/from FL. The rest of the Pennsy fleet that I rode ranged from barely adequate to "forget it". But I never did ride the Broadway as most of my travel was by coach.
Believe it or not a great breakfast on Penn central # 27 I still remember the great trout dinner on the empire builder and club sandwiches in the builders lounge car. Nothing better than crawling out of your berth and heading to the dinner for breakfast. Always neat to fill out menu card.
Also a great hand made bloody Mary on the westbound Canadian, facing rear looking out the back window of one of the park car, dome sleeper lounge obs, good times for sure.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.