I should have also mentioned IC's "City of New Orleans" all coach streamliner Chicago-New Orleans that also was equipped with a full diner serving all 3 meals on its all day run. (terrific turkey dinner!)
Never was dissapointed in a dining car meal. Outstanding memories was the ACL meal noted in a Doug Riddell column in Rail News some 15 years ago about my meal when I was the only passenger on the northbound 2nd Section of the Havana Special when a Camp Lajuene Marine Detachment did not show up at Wilson, and I had 2nd and 3rd helpings of Southern Fride Chicken sharing the table with the conductor and two trainment, really paradise for a 13-year old railfan. Rocky Mountain Trout at dinner and French Toast for breakfast on the Rio Grande Zephyr, much repeated treats. Kings dinner on the Panama. Scrod on the New Haven. The big potato on the Main Street. Any meal on the Santa Fe. Breakfast in the UP dome diner. Eggs and grits on the Southener, Southern Crescent. Any meal on the Broadway or 20th Century. Could go on.
I would argue that Union Pacific might have been closer to the mark with a coffee shop-lounge on the "Challenger", which was oriented to the budget traveler. The "El Capitan" was an anomaly in the coach trade, what with an extra fare and a less than daily schedule at its inaugural.
The beauty of the AT&SF was the dignity it provided its coach passengers by providing a full-service, reasonably priced diner on its long-distance trains. As much as I enjoyed the dining experience on the "Super Chief," it was never dissappointing to dine aboard the "Texas Chief" or the "SF Chief."
This AT&SF concept quite favorably compared to how the UP handled coach customers from LA/SF to Chicago, by providing only a coffee shop-lounge, until "The Challenger" was permanently combined with the "Cities of LA/SF" after 1968.
OK, I need to mention a lunch with my father on the El Capitan as it raced through New Mexico. Turkey wasn't a common protein except for holidays back then. I had turkey with suffing and gravey along with fresh peas. Quite the treat. As we waited for our lunch I saw a deer bolt away from the train.
But the most memorable was on the Rock Island. The Rock was still operating the Peoria Rocket complete with dining car. I was newly out of the army and going to grad school near Chicago. I ususally drove when I went 200 miles downstate to see my folks who lived a little south of Peoria.
One weekend I decided to take the Rocket. I walked to the "L" and took it to LaSalle Street Station. On the Rocket I ordered a steak and a glass of wine. A salad was included. Both the meal and service were still quite good in 1975. I remember the cost as being $7.00.
When I got home I told my folks about it. My father reprimanded me for spending so much for the meal. But 40 years later that memory is still with me. I'd say it was $7.00 well spent.
Balt, thanks for that advertisement for the Super Chief. When my wife, her three young children, and I went to Albuquerque and back from Chicago in 1973, we rode first class, and enjoyed the trip. I have regretted not asking the steward, soon after leaving Chicago, if we could eat in the Turquoise Room; that was the only part of the experience of the train that we missed. She and I did, eight years later, eat in a Turquoise Room (privately owned then) on a trip to Denver and back--we also ate in an observation car that had been owned by Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg. Once, as we were traveling through Colorado on that trip, someone driving on a road beside the track did a doubletake as he saw what was on the rear of the California Zephyr .
Quite an aside--I am somewhat amused by the usage of "quality" that implies that whatever is described is the best, for "quality" board fencing is inferior to "No. 2 and better" fencing. I have worked in a lumber yard, even grading fencing.
Johnny
Travel in the 1950's (and before) was an 'experience' and one was expected to dress up and be on their best behavior for the experience - be that train, air or ship.
In the 21st Century travel is a commodity to be bought a the lowest cost - nothing special except getting the lowest cost to go from A to Z - purchased services just drive up the cost.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Tom, very good to read your informed comments. In response:
1. The problem starts with the "anticipated demand" as detemrined by some inventory manager at a commissary. Given the lack of marketing, up-selling, bartender training, and even interest on the part of the LSA, we have our answer. For example, I used to rely on the "Pere Marquette" for frequernt trips to meet with attorneys in Grand Rapids, especially between 2010-2013, given the $800 RT air fare. One LSA commented how he looked at the manifest and even cut the inventory, figuring there not be enough sales to justify lugging inventory on/off the cafge. (Indeed, I learned to run to the cafe and grab the only 2 White Label scotch bottles!) Other LSAs commented how they were given nothing to sell; nobody listened; in respect to the racial heritage of our Americans, these routes to Michigan could have been seliing quite a bit of Cognac and other upscale liquors, if stocked. So many items were simply scrached out, I learned to order ahead to a wonderful pizza place located in the St. Joseph, MI depot.
An incredibly arcane system indeed! Such an emphasis on cash and product inventory; yet, it still remains a problem and the numero uno issue.
2. Despite being a frequent traveler on LD trains, I have never been up-sold by the SA or the LSA. When I have requested a Bloody Mary in the morning, most of the time nobody knew how to even mix it correctly. Interestingly, on Acela F Class, they were most hesitant to offer a drink, let alone to refill the glass.
In terms of salary, this just cuts to the point--LSAs are paid approx $43/hr and SAs $38/hr--both with benefits. What happened to the days we used to pay good tips to the diner waiters and bartenders in the club car? I do indeed know that the on-board crew is not paid for all hours on the train; yet, the entire situation is so backwards. I read everybody's comments here; I came off a special sentiment/relationship for the AT&SF; yet, where have we gone--quality and choice of food, competency of service, bartending skills, product inventory, etc.
Mark
With the Amtrak's that operate on my territory at least weekly and generally more often, one or more train will request to be met at a station by the local authorities to remove one or more passengers - while I don't know it for a fact, I suspect many are account having imbibed too heavily at the bar and being unable to conduct themselves as civilized human beings.
I can give a response to some of the above, although I agree that some of the points are quite valid.
2. Bar inventory is governed by available space, anticipated demand, etc. The LSA has no control over it. It's true that Amtrak's bar service training is not so great. The Company likes to hire people with prior bar service experience for that very reason. New hires are hired to perform many duties, only one of which is bar service. These coach and sleeper attendant, chef, etc. Standards for service on the NEC might be different. The long-established work rules dictate that LSA assignments are given out based on seniority, rather than specific bar service qualifications. Amtrak's priorities are focused more on cash accountability than on the ability to mix a drink. Training focuses on equipment, procedures, safety, accounting (using an incredibly arcane system), etc.
4. Up-selling is encouraged by the Company. On the other hand, pushing a too-willing customer to buy too much liquor can create serious problems onboard, and can get the LSA in trouble. I want to limit my comments about the "extraordinary hourly wage w/benefits". I just want to say that Amtrak onboard service employees are not paid for all hours away from home, yet are not free to do as they please during those hours. This skews the equation. Also, the year is 2015, and the economy is what it is and employees' living expenses are what they are.
Tom
(edited)
The concepts discussed here are quite correct. When it comes to F&B, you get what you pay for, even with Aramark, where I was a VP with its predessor, ARA Services, Inc.
Amtrak's F&B issues are multi-faceted, but inter-related:
1) Food product is pathetically poor, unappetizing, dull, unhealthy (raisin d'etre for Pepto Bismal).
2) Inadequate bar investory; LSAs not even trained as bartenders.
3) Cafes, except where state-operated, have not changed since Penn Central days.
4) How are LSAs and SAs trained; supervised? Not worrying about tips with their extraordinary hourly wage w/benefits, explains why there is no effort to "up-sell" liquor during meals.
5) Long distance diners on arrival day stab the entire concept of customer friendly service, by offering abbreviated meal format to facilitate 4-5 hours crew requires to count and re-pack items to off-load upon arrival.
As I have previously written in Trains, just look north to benchmark with VIA Rail Canada--very competent fresh first class meals/bartending on The Canadian; very acceptable pre-prepared meals/bar on The Ocean's Renaissance diners; VIA1 (now Business1) corridor still offeirng great choice of meals, served on china, glassware, silverware, with real bar.
The critical metric in creating Amtrak was to centralize common operations, such as commissary, to achieve economics, but never with the thought that meal time at GITMO would be a step above where dining has gone on Amtrak.
ACY: If only!
I used to show this same video (as aVHS tape!) of the Chief in a few of my high school A.P. American history classes at the end of the year. I can still see their eyes rolling as the lame actress talks to the camera!
As a historical document the film is priceless. Just imagine dinner in the Turquoise Room....really! But, do you notice how many people are smoking cigarettes everywhere? Phew! Also, one shower on on the train for a two-night 39.75 hr. journey.... The dining looked wonderful, but who really wants to travel in those clothes today? I mean, a jacket and tie (or suit!) for two days aboard a train? Yikes! Also, imagine being aboard the Southwest Chief today with only a book or a few magazines to help pass the time! What? No smartphones?
Perhaps the worst (?) part of this nice old movie is that the only black folks seen anywhere are in subserviant capacities. If nothing else, train ridership (and airplane ridership, for that matter) is much more democratic and demographically inclusive than the whites-only country club on wheels depicted in this film.
I miss those days, yet sometimes I'm glad they're gone. Strange, isn't it?
Balt:
Next time I'm in Chicago, I think I'll meander down to 238 South Michigan Avenue and see if I can get a reservation.
I plan to get there on the Capitol from Camden Street, arriving at Chicago's Grand Central.
Wanna come along?
Quality rail transportation prior to Amtrak
In the late 1950's, I used to ride "The Northwest Special" on the UP, from Ogden to Pocatello. This was a very early AM train. Coming into Ogden from San Francisco, there was a very long wait at Ogden for the "Special". I could have made other arrangements, but it was worth the inconvenient wait. The french toast on the "Special's" menu was mouthwatering delicious. Many people, myself included, rode this train because of the french toast. The diner was always packed. I was always worried that I wouldn't get into the diner right away and I might not be able to finish the meal bye the time we got to Pocatello. I have eaten french toast in many places since then, but nothing can compare to the way the UP made it back then.
Another glimpse....
http://www.rockymountaineer.com/en_US/travel_planning/culinary/cookbook
Note the Executive Chefs are not on the train in most cases except to pose for pictures. In most cases they are at Corporate HQ kitchen testing recipes and recipe assembly. Pretty sure most of their food comes in on trays already prepared and they might heat one or two parts but most of the labor is in assembly of the dish in the kitchen not in the preparation.
I think the operation is something Amtrak can learn from. They do like to convey the impression everything is prepared fresh on board but I can tell I used to be GM of a restaurant. No way is this happening on the Rocky Mountaineer.
ACY This seems to be drifting away from the subject of pre-Amtrak meal service, and moving towards recommendations for changes to Amtrak practices. We've been there before in other threads. With all due respect to Dave, I think he has offered his suggestions with good intentions, but they would probably involve some practical and logistical nightmares, with corresponding reductions in the ability to maintain quality control. One late train, or one meal delivery delayed by a snowstorm, could throw the whole plan into desarray. At one time, Auto Train meals were catered by Marriott. There were savings in cost, as well as improvements in the freshness of the food, when Amtrak took this on itself. I hope we can get back to the original topic. Tom
This seems to be drifting away from the subject of pre-Amtrak meal service, and moving towards recommendations for changes to Amtrak practices. We've been there before in other threads. With all due respect to Dave, I think he has offered his suggestions with good intentions, but they would probably involve some practical and logistical nightmares, with corresponding reductions in the ability to maintain quality control. One late train, or one meal delivery delayed by a snowstorm, could throw the whole plan into desarray. At one time, Auto Train meals were catered by Marriott. There were savings in cost, as well as improvements in the freshness of the food, when Amtrak took this on itself.
I hope we can get back to the original topic.
I'm not willing to go along with the "We tried that before and it did not work" scenario so easily.
Regardless of the Auto Train experience, other rail passenger services do not have the issue with this and are making a profit with daily train service between two end points.
http://www.rockymountaineer.com/en_US/travel_planning/culinary
I have ridden the Rocky Mountaineer Gold Leaf Service and there is no way (speed of delivery and consistent presentation) possible they are preparing those dishes from scratch in their onboard kitchen. They are clearly prepackged food supplied off train from a centralized source. Taste is great and final prep is done on the train (no doubt there).
So if Amtrak could not pull this together with the Auto-Train.......they blew it or had selected the wrong vendor, IMO. Additionally Rocky Mountaineer has a network of trains now traveling over various routes. I am willing to bet that food is still packaged and purchased from a vendor and that they do not have a Commissary per say that builds the packaged food trays.
BTW, a number of the IT Companies I used to work with used to contract with Marriott Services including:
IBM at their HQ used Marriott Food Services.
Verizon Yellowpages used Marriott Hotel Services at their in company HQ hotel at DFW airport (former Braniff International HQ building). They also stocked the conference rooms with their candies and refreshments.
So I have some experience with Marriott, your right they are expensive but they are also in a higher service tier than LSG Skychefs or other tray service providers and personally........I would never use them for a train as they do not have a lot of background service in transportation catering. Which makes me wonder how Amtrak selected them?
BTW, also note.......One of the Rocky Mountaineer Chefs has LSG Sky Chefs in his background........coincidence.........or......
http://www.rockymountaineer.com/en_US/travel_planning/culinary/chef_bios
Would it kill Amtrak to hire an Executive chef for each region to ensure food quality? Photo in the above link implies these Executive Chefs are onboard each train preparing the meals fresh on the train but having ridden the train I can tell you in most cases I don't think they are even on board. I peeked in the kitchen more than once and never saw an Executive Chef onboard, saw the plates lined up in a row each looked identical in portion and shape with one of the serving kids applying finishing touches...... these meals are clearly a prepared tray service and most of the final prep is done by kids in the 19-27 year old age group (compares favorably probably in wages to the ages in Amtrak's Diner).
While I agree that the majority of Amtrak trains could have quality meal service prepared by third parties much like the first class service on airlines and save money in the process, I think it is a political impossibility. Amtrak's labor unions would scream to labor friendly congressmen, who would make the appropriate noises about the subsidy and that would be the end of the idea regardless of its merits. It is just another area in which the federal goverment has become disfunctional.
While I do not share Franklin Roosevelt's belief that public sector labor unions are a form of political corruption, along with the picture of the current president that is a fixture in every federal manager's office, for those engaged in labor relations I might require a second wall hanging -- a banner reading "Remember PATCO!".
But the above does not mean that I approve of the way food service is managed by Amtrak at the present time. I never had an opportunity to enjoy Acela service, but I did have Metroliner First Class on a few occasions. The precooked meals that I were served were pretty much the same as served to the First Class passengers on the better airlines of the period (Delta being one of the best), and were meals that I could thoroughly enjoy. It would have taken just a few more touches to make equal to the tops.
I think is entirely obsolete and wastefull to pay food service employees to sleep overnight on long distance trains. I could see Amtrak Commisaries in Washington, in or next to Washington Union Station, Chicago, and Los Angeles. Long distance trains leaving those locations would receive freshly pepared meals to be served at the first meal hour after leaving those locations. For example, the Silver Meteor and Southern Crescent would be able to serve diners the equivalent of an on-board-cookied dinner, possibly pre-ordered at time of reservation, southbound, and a breakfast northbound. Possibly a special van would be dispatched from this commisary-kitchen to Lorton for the Autotrain each day for the first southbound meal . But the other meals would be similar to what I experienced on 1st Class Metroliner and 1st class Delta Airlines, and the dining cars would be configured to handle such meals and the second step in their serving. Crew locations for food service employees would be set up, so that they can work from their base on one train and return back the same day and sleep at home, to the extent possible. Where the three basic Amtrak commissary-kitchens cannot meet the needs of long-distance or other service, Sky-Chefs or the equivalent would fill in the gaps with their best products.
I think such a system would work, would reduce expenses, and still preseve making the dining car experience the high-point of the trip.
Hey, AEG, do you travel long distance trains much? I did, and when faced with trains the situation like you described and recommend, I did my best to buy food before boarding.
If one thing the previoius posts should teach you, is that for many long-dstance travelers, the dining car experience was and may still be the high point(s) of the trip.
I always though the Amtrak "tradition" of having very elaborate dining car meals were held over from the desperate attempts of the bankrupt railroad to lure passengers by offering elaborate dining car meals. It didn't seem necessary for Amtrak to continue that tradition because the meals were a marketing tactic by the now-defunct passenger railroads that is no longer needed.
I think most folks would be happy with an automat car at the very least, or at best a bistro-style Northeast Regional and Acela snack car, and Amtrak would save hundreds of millions.
The times that I rode the Canadian with twenty-some odd cars, there were two full diners, and each one served six sleepers--three on each side, with a dome lounge immediately in front of the diner.
Only 1 full diner at the rear, perhaps separated by 2 sleepers from Park car. It appeared Skyline dome lounges were used as auxiliary diners and positioned approx. every 2-3 sleepers. When we left Toronto, we had to hike 16 cars back to the Park car. I fixed that problem with a great train director who fully appreciated how I wanted to be in the full diner and close to the Park car!
Wow. I thought a 28 car consist was big but 32, how many diners did it have?
As a part of a family vacation I recall riding 'The Gulf Wind' from New Orleans to Jacksonville. The L&N originated the train at New Orleans and handed it off to the SAL at Chattahoochee, FL. As I recall the L&N diner on the train had the name of 'Square Key Tavern'. While I don't really remember the quality of the meal, I do remember the quality of the ride - the car should have been more aptly named 'Square Wheels Tavern' - roughest riding car I have ever been on. The car was switched out of the train at Flomaton, AL, where it would lay over to catch the Gulf Wind back to New Orleans in the morning for the breakfast crowd.
How can I argue with an "Electroliner..?" If I had only been old enough to cocktail in its lounge, instead of just apple pie and milk!
All I remember of the EB CZ from Denver-Chicago in April, 1967, was nothing special--food, service, attitude, etc. Especially when compared to the GN, NP, and especially, the AT&SF.
I have regularly traveled VIA's Canadian and Ocean. Steaks are indeed available in the F class diner on #1 & #2, as well as rack of lamb, prime rib roast beef, duck, etc. Even without a regular diner and using the Renaissance concept, the Ocean served up good meals throughout the day. After a 32-car consist in the summer of 1999, I try to keep to winter, spring, and fall on #1 & #2.
Quite possible, as it was a slow crawl along the Arkansas...in those days, diners were stocked quite differently than now.
Indeed, when I was on a back-to-back run thru the western national parks on the ex-AOE in 2005, I learned how the diner crew typically provisioned the train enroute with fresh offerings. When the consist was serviced in Helena, they purchased quanitites of fresh fish for that night's dinner on our way to Glacier.
SuperChief49 In the 1960s, especially latter half, impossible to best the Super Chief, and the continuing pride and care to this legend by the AT&SF. Indeed, when still a Santa Fe operation in 1972 under Amtrak, on arrival day into Chicago, I woke-up late and sought out lunch just before Joliet. Can you believe the steward re-lit the fires and served up a terrific burger/fries? And cocktails were still prepared in the Pleasure Dome and served in glassware. However, by 1967, meals on the DZ and CZ were not spectacular, and never that good on the Twin Cities Zephyrs. To avoid the Q on my twice per summer trips to Minneapolis visiting my brother in college/med school between 1962-1966, I booked the WB North Coast Limited to enjoy a terrific roast beef dinner--and that potato the size of the table. Returning to Chicago, I would book the EB Empire Buider to enjoy a great breakfast and hamburger lunch in the diner, although the Ranch Car was always inviting. WB Empire Builder to Minnepaolis also served up a terrific roast beef dinner. Even by 1963, The General served barely palatable meals in its twin-unit diner--chopped steak dinner dry; breakfast greasy. What made-up for that was lunch and dinner in 1961 aboard the EB Twin Cities 400 from Minneapolis to Evanston--fresh fish both meals. Can never forget a chicken salad sandwich lunch in the diner of the bi-level Fambeau 400 from Evanston to Milwaukee, also in 1961. However, what still stands out in my mind was dinner and breakfast aboard the EB Royal Gorge between Salt Lake City-Colorado Springs in 1957. Not only a 10 minute stop in the Gorge to disembark right on the ballast (no attorneys then?), but rumor was that the Rocky Mountian brook trout was purchased en route. You mean that one of cooks did not throw a line out while running alongside the Arkansas River? Also, a trip aboard the Western Star in 1959 from Chicago-Glacier Park. Every meal in the GN diner terrific. And the lounge/grill made the best malts in the afternoon. So, will Amtrak ever learn to benchmark to all that's left in North American railroad dining--VIA Rail Canada?
In the 1960s, especially latter half, impossible to best the Super Chief, and the continuing pride and care to this legend by the AT&SF. Indeed, when still a Santa Fe operation in 1972 under Amtrak, on arrival day into Chicago, I woke-up late and sought out lunch just before Joliet. Can you believe the steward re-lit the fires and served up a terrific burger/fries? And cocktails were still prepared in the Pleasure Dome and served in glassware.
However, by 1967, meals on the DZ and CZ were not spectacular, and never that good on the Twin Cities Zephyrs. To avoid the Q on my twice per summer trips to Minneapolis visiting my brother in college/med school between 1962-1966, I booked the WB North Coast Limited to enjoy a terrific roast beef dinner--and that potato the size of the table. Returning to Chicago, I would book the EB Empire Buider to enjoy a great breakfast and hamburger lunch in the diner, although the Ranch Car was always inviting. WB Empire Builder to Minnepaolis also served up a terrific roast beef dinner.
Even by 1963, The General served barely palatable meals in its twin-unit diner--chopped steak dinner dry; breakfast greasy. What made-up for that was lunch and dinner in 1961 aboard the EB Twin Cities 400 from Minneapolis to Evanston--fresh fish both meals. Can never forget a chicken salad sandwich lunch in the diner of the bi-level Fambeau 400 from Evanston to Milwaukee, also in 1961.
However, what still stands out in my mind was dinner and breakfast aboard the EB Royal Gorge between Salt Lake City-Colorado Springs in 1957. Not only a 10 minute stop in the Gorge to disembark right on the ballast (no attorneys then?), but rumor was that the Rocky Mountian brook trout was purchased en route. You mean that one of cooks did not throw a line out while running alongside the Arkansas River? Also, a trip aboard the Western Star in 1959 from Chicago-Glacier Park. Every meal in the GN diner terrific. And the lounge/grill made the best malts in the afternoon.
So, will Amtrak ever learn to benchmark to all that's left in North American railroad dining--VIA Rail Canada?
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