Double Bedroom Accommodation - Redesigned

[Wizlish]

schlimm

I was trying to address the "wider point" AFAIK. I am wondering just how settled is the issue of a 'big hole" between two classes of sleeper service and how you define "considerable new business?"

I don't think it's settled at all, and indeed it may not exist.  Even if it does there isn't any guarantee enough people would take advantage of it to cover the marginal cost, let alone the initial capital expenditure. 

But if there is, in fact, a justification for doing it, we're doing no harm thrashing out and fleshing out what cars for providing it will look like.

I, too, am waiting for the answer on how to make those beds...

[schlimm]

ROBERT WILLISON

Where is the evidence they serve so few people sclimm?

 

Look at Amtrak reports.   Where is the evidence for the "hole" in accommodations in Amtrak sleepers?

[ROBERT WILLISON]

Where is the evidence they serve so few people sclimm?

[schlimm]

Wizlish

Addressing the wider point:  Has it not been said repeatedly that there's a big 'hole' between two classes of sleeper service on Amtrak, and a service that fills this might attract considerable 'new business'? 

I was trying to address the "wider point" AFAIK.   I am wondering just how settled is the issue of a 'big hole" between two classes of sleeper service and how you define "considerable new business?"  

As far as engineering goes, I failed to see or overlooked any answer to Tom in re: standing room in the crew room to make the bed.

[Wizlish]

schlimm

Why does Amtrak need yet another sleeping car design on top of those it already has, especially at a time when everywhere else sleeping car services are being reduced because they serve so few customers?

Whether they need it or not -- I'm fascinated to watch a design engineer and a very experienced Amtrak guy 'dialoguing' and, in the process, working through a tremendous number of design desiderata in a short time.  I'd be interested to see how many of these points, details, and thoughts could be applied to arrangements within the 'modular'-compatible Viewliner shell.

Addressing the wider point:  Has it not been said repeatedly that there's a big 'hole' between two classes of sleeper service on Amtrak, and a service that fills this might attract considerable 'new business'? 

I also think that most of the 'fast corridor' trains are likely to get funded in large part with state and regional money -- as they should be.  The LD trains are much more reliant on finding operating models that cover 'more' of their costs, and I encourage any thoughtful effort, be it in operations, food service, sleepers, or 'perquisites' that make travel more effective out of proportion to expense, that makes the LD service less 'politically undesirable'...

[ACY Tom]

Well, I've never said the idea is impossible, but I'm still not ready to jump on the bandwagon.

Your linen locker solution is to have 6 or 7 separate linen lockers under the lower berths.  I don't like having the clean linen stored in an area on the floor, which is prone to collect dust etc.  Accessing linen items will be a cumbersome, backbreaking chore after the first three or four attempts.  Remember, some of the items in those floor-level lockers will be all the way in the back.  On those occasions when the stock arrives five or ten minutes before boarding (and don't think it doesn't happen), it will be impossible to get that many individual lockers stocked.  Also, I still don't see where there is a separate area for soiled linens.

Maybe your detailed drawings will show the attendant's room more clearly.  Until then, the sliding door still concerns me.

One issue I had not mentioned has to do with the berths that run parallel to the rails.  It's been a long time since I worked those "Silver Bird" cars, so I'd forgotten.  The upper berths were always prone to jamming halfway between the stowed and open position.  I don't know how to correct this, but the old Budd design would not be appropriate.  I've also operated another design for these uppers, which I think were on U.P. cars.  They were slightly better, but sometimes still gave problems.  Some entirely new arrangement would have to be devised.

I guess my objections could mostly be addressed by eliminating one room and using that space to provide a little more space for the things that concern me.  I know this cuts into revenue, but it's the only alternative that makes sense to me.

By the way, where is the PA box?  It has to be at the vestibule end.

Tom

Edit:  After writing the above, I returned to the floor plan to see which is the vestibule end.  Maybe it's the area to the left, which I had presumed to have the coffee station on one side and the electrical locker on the other.  If that's the vestibule, then there is no place designated for the electrical locker, coffee maker, and coffee supplies. If it is the area to the left, it needs to be moved to the right in order to be adjacent to the attendant's room so that he can get access to his supplies during boarding or immediately before detraining.  Then you'll still have to find a place for the coffee station and electrical locker.  Maybe if you could build the car 95 or 100 feet long?

second edit:  I don't think the coffee maker & associated supplies will fit in the crook opposite the accessible room.

[schlimm]

Taking the role of the non-professional iconoclast (thanks, JK!) my comment is this.  Why does Amtrak need yet another sleeping car design on top of those it already has, especially at a time when everywhere else sleeping car services are being reduced because they serve so few customers?  Fast corridors are the correct direction.

[daveklepper]

I think you have an excellent idea and that AC's well-formulated questions have been answered.  I truly hope you can sell the idea to Amtrak.

[V.Payne]

I suppose the storage for coffee cups would be in the room or alternately they would be individually wraped under the shelf with the Keurig machine. I had envisioned a vertical tree of storage cabinets, and shelves for the coffee stand, and of course with the Keurig any flavor is available. The bridge plate hangs against the end wall.

Yes, the drawing is a high level sketch (though it is not in the resolution I had it in natively, will try to improve the resolution - PM me and I can email you the PDF from AutoCAD). The attendant room is a bit larger than the current room in width (about 42"), so there is a bit more floor/foot space than currently provided. Yes, there would be a sliding door to the attendant shower/toilet, and the bed has to be up to use it. It would not interfere with the entry door. I had planned a 35" wide shower area there. I guess one of the larger conceptual questions is why could the 87' length of the Acela coaches not be used instead of the 85' standard car.

The beds are full sized twins (38" wide), so the sense of scale is probably skewed relative to the current narrow beds. A storage locker could be provided at every other room, under the crosswise sofa/bed, with a door to the aisle. There should be more storage space in total, not less. For long term storage, say for parts like spare windows or furniture replacements, the undercar lockers in the V-II design could be used.

Conceptually, this design moves more space to private rooms, instead of common facility areas like shared restrooms and shower areas. This is the way to get more revenue per mile and meet the expectations of a larger portion of the public.

[oltmannd]

V.Payne

However, there seems to be significant un-meet demand for something between the Viewliner Roomette and the few Viewliner Bedrooms, which can be combined into suites but at much higher costs.

I think this is just another of the good, or at least plausible, inovations discussed on these forms over the years.

The real shame is that Amtrak just seems so oblivious.

I wonder if there is a way to collect these ideas and give them some decent exposure so that they might exert enough pressure on Amtrak to get them to at least wake up.

[ROBERT WILLISON]

I don't see your point. I ridden on the same train when it was full. And I am not referring to silver class but the new service  they began this year.

Hard to compare the via operation to Amtrak's NYC ( northeast corridor population  ) the silver service trains handle  two to three sleepers on a regular basis with no special marketing or equipment.

[Deggesty]

schlimm

 

ACY

The color was gray.  It was immediately noted by O.B.S. personnel that the only large organizations identified with gray uniforms are Greyhound bus drivers, the Confederate Army, and the Nazi army. 

 

 

Not to be picky, but OBS should have also noted that the cadets at West Point ("The Long Grey Line") and several other military academies (VMI, the Citadel) also wear grey.  Feldgrau (field grey, actually a greenish grey) was the traditional German regular army uniform since 1907.  Not the "Nazi uniform" as their organizations, such as the SS wore black and the SA tan-khaki uniforms.

 

I wonder how many O.B.S. personnel had any contact  with Military Academy (either United States or South Carolina) cadets. I have known four graduates of the Citadel--one was my brother, who was a veteran and so was excused from wearing a uniform and from drilling, and I met the other three after they had graduated and no longer wore the uniform. I did know of "the Long Grey Line."

I appreciate the correct naming of the Citadel; all too many people do not know that "the" is a part of the name. The subdivision where I lived for almost thirty-nine years is named "Academy Park." I lived on the mis-named West Point Drive (which is confusing to anyone who thinks it is the western part of Point Drive); there is another mis-named street--Annapolis, and one named Citadel.

[ACY Tom]

Schlimm:

Touche.

I certainly meant no disrespect to the men and women of West Point, VMI, The Citadel, et. al.  Actually, the comments that went around at the time rose out of a visceral, negative reaction from O.B.S. personnel at the time, and I think we unanimously were looking for negative images to make our point to Management.  The positive image of those cadets probably never occurred to anybody.  As for subtleties in shadings of gray, the point was a general one.  And it's true that very fervent Nazis like the S.S. wore black.  Nevertheless, the German Army represented and fought hard for the German Nazi government, so the connection is there.

Tom

[schlimm]

ACY

The color was gray.  It was immediately noted by O.B.S. personnel that the only large organizations identified with gray uniforms are Greyhound bus drivers, the Confederate Army, and the Nazi army. 

Not to be picky, but OBS should have also noted that the cadets at West Point ("The Long Grey Line") and several other military academies (VMI, the Citadel) also wear grey.  Feldgrau (field grey, actually a greenish grey) was the traditional German regular army uniform since 1907.  Not the "Nazi uniform" as their organizations, such as the SS wore black and the SA tan-khaki uniforms.

[CMStPnP]

ROBERT WILLISON

Now you guys are finally getting it. Grow revenues by providing more perks and space. I have pointed to via rail rebuilt park cars as a way to sell more space at a premium price In previous postings.  Their is a market for this kind of service in the silver service.

The last time I rode the VIA train between Jasper and Prince Rupert.    Silver Class was completely empty and me and my Sister and one other passenger were the only passengers in Totem Class.     It was nice to have the train with only three passengers on it but in that case..........Silver Class didn't make a difference.

[ACY Tom]

I really don't want to be contrarian here, but I remain unconvinced. 

I still don't see any linen locker, or any designated "clean" linen locker space sufficient to hold the large numbers of sheets, pillow cases, towels, washcloths, etc., plus a few extra pillows and extra blankets and one extra of each type/size of mattress.  I don't see a designated storage area for dirty linen to be held pending removal from the train. I don't see a supply cabinet for a mop and other cleaning supplies, plus extra soap, extra toilet tissue and paper towels, etc.  I don't see a separate (per F.D.A. requirements) storage area for extra coffee cups, creamers, sweeteners, stirrers, tea bags, etc.  In the coffee machine area, I don't see a place to display a supply of coffee cups, creamers, etc. so that they will be available.  I don't see adequate space for a trash receptacle in the coffee service area. 

I don't know whether Amtrak foresees a future need for stepboxes.  I do know the A.D.A. requirements call for entry/egress to be at station platform level.  However, some stations are served by both low- and high-level equipment, and inevitable track settling will always cause some station platforms to poorly match entry heights.  I suspect there will always be some need for stepboxes and bridge plate ramps for wheelchair passengers.  The stepbox and the bridge plate have to be stored someplace.  I don't see allowance for that. 

The restroom/shower for the attendant's room shows no door.  I presume there is one.  Does it slide, or swing inward, or swing outward?  Swinging into the toilet stall probably would be impractical because there's no room. Swinging outward means closing up the bed every time the restroom is used.  A sliding door would probably interfere with the entry door.  Is there a sink for the attendant to use after using the restroom?  I don't see one.

The drawing shows the attendant's room having a sofa style seat & bed just like those in the other crosswise rooms.  But it doesn't show any floor space for the attendant to stand up.  There is no aisle for him to stand in while he makes his bed.  Does he stand on his bed while getting dressed?  How can he walk from the door to his room to the door of his restroom without walking/crawling over the bed or sofa?

I suggested the public restroom because the logical placement of the car is probably next to the diner, and diners have no restrooms.  The restroom would be a great help to the diner patrons. 

Maybe a more detailed drawing would show these things better and allay my concerns, but I remain skeptical.

Remember, a sleeping car is not just a vehicle to carry passengers.  It's also a place where a human being has to work, and it has to be designed with the worker in mind, as well as the passenger.  Several years ago Amtrak hired a hotshot Madison Avenue designer to redesign the uniforms for onboard service personnel.  He came up with a design that could not be cleaned on the train because it had to be dry cleaned and pressed.  It showed the dirt because it was too light in color.  The color was gray.  It was immediately noted by O.B.S. personnel that the only large organizations identified with gray uniforms are Greyhound bus drivers, the Confederate Army, and the Nazi army.  The first is a competitor;  the other two lost their respective wars and carried a stigma because of their positions on certain social issues.  When interviewed, the designer said, "I've always wanted to do trains."  His mistake was in not knowing that his job was NOT to do trains.  His job was to "do" the working employees, and they did indeed feel that they had been "done". 

The gray uniforms didn't last long enough to be introduced nationwide, and I think they were gone within a year or so.  I'll bet the guy got paid anyway, but I don't know for sure.

Tom    

[ROBERT WILLISON]

Now you guys are finally getting it. Grow revenues by providing more perks and space. I have pointed to via rail rebuilt park cars as a way to sell more space at a premium price In previous postings.  Their is a market for this kind of service in the silver service.

[V.Payne]

I believe everything is there, (1) ADA room with a Keurig sized coffee stand outside in the crook at the end of the hall, (11) Double Bedrooms, and (1) attendent room which includes a shower as well. The electrical locker is on the end wall of the car by the attendent room, as is a storage space. There is also room for storage under ever other room with hall access. I don't see the need for a public restroom when every room has a full bathroom.

I have not had the opportunity to ride in the remodeled VIA sleepers. My understanding is that they use more space than the current Amtrak Deluxe Bedroom, now just a Bedroom. An important thing about the proposed design is is uses less room, about 70" per room along the car as opposed to 81", while still having a full bathroom. Most importantly there would seem to be a better perception of space due to the way the annex is arranged and a full sized sink and toilet is used in the plans.

I do really wish there were some value added services offered, such as door to door luggage (start with NYC). I suspect the reality is that there is so little sleeper rack stock to sell, it pratically seems to sell itself. I wonder say for example if the Crescent has room in the marketplace to float 6-8 sleepers after prorating from 1970's levels of operation and current population.

[ACY Tom]

This thing reminds me of the "Silver Bird" series of 5 cpt, 6 DBR cars used by the Burlington on the CZ and DZ.  Until the mid 90's, we used a few of them on Amtrak no. 52-53.  Yes, there is enough space to fit 11 rooms into that space.  The proposed design is supposed to also include an attendant's room.  I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but I suspect you won't fit 11 rooms plus an attendant's room into that length unless you eliminate such frivolous things as electrical lockers, equipment lockers, a linen locker, a public restroom, and a coffee station.   I suppose the coffee station could be eliminated.

Too often, efficiency plans ignore some of the unique needs that inconveniently come along with operation of passenger service and passenger equipment.

Tom 

[CMStPnP]

So what do you think of the new VIA Rail "Prestige Class" Sleeper arrangement.    I think it is pretty cool and have long thought Amtrak should try multiple class sleeping car arrangements more in line with this type of thing that VIA Rail is offering.    I think the current Amtrak First Class could be upgraded a little with a additional premium added to the charge for the Compartment.

Additionally, why I don't see LD Rail Passenger Carriers doing this outside of the Rocky Mountaineer.    I think there is plenty of room for luxury add-ons for Amtrak such as door to door baggage handling in some markets like what some of the airlines are attempting in some markets.    Amtrak could enter a few joint marketing agreements as well where if you make a rental car reservation via Amtrak you get 15% off the rental plus Amtrak gets a small % of the total rental fee charged.     Items like that I think could boost Amtraks bottom line a little more in the LD Train area.

[V.Payne]

There is a clear market preference in room accommodations for en suite bathrooms currently missing in quantity from NRPC product offerings. Long ago the Pullman Company figured out that it was a more efficient use of space to provide the restrooms within each accommodation instead of in end of car areas, and this logic was mirrored in the Viewliner prototypes of the mid-1980’s, which were only built a decade later in the mid-1990’s.

 

As has been suggested before, the pot-o-money approach of the current top level budget does not impart discipline in regards to developing updated product offerings or promote consideration of added marginal revenue above marginal costs as overhead multiplies are always applied though little additional overhead should be needed. There seems as well to be a concerted effort by some politicians to classify fledgling attempts by NRPC to generate higher fares, with a better product on the National Network, as somehow out of bounds.

 

Setting this aside, consider the revenue of the various configurations at approximately the low bucket fares for two adults per room (take off $0.12/mile from the revenue below for single travel - which the Roomette is more aligned toward).  Note; fares for the bedrooms go higher than $1/mile in peak periods. The marginal cost of an extra car is about $3/car-mile, inclusive of capital, so the question as always is how much of the fixed train costs can be covered by net revenue from additional (marginal) cars.

 

Viewliner I  [(3) x $0.75/mile + (12) x $0.45/mile] x 85% ocp = $6.50/car-mile

Viewliner II [(3) x $0.75/mile + (9) x $0.45/mile] x 85% ocp = $5.36/car-mile

 

However, there seems to be significant un-meet demand for something between the Viewliner Roomette and the few Viewliner Bedrooms, which can be combined into suites but at much higher costs. Lets review the Pullman Double Bedroom breifly.

 

 

 

Looking for inspiration in the well thought out concept of the Pullman Double Bedroom, which could be combined to form a two room suite as shown above while in Amtrak service as Heritage equipment, one can see that there is a way to conservatively exceed the revenue of the Viewliner II and provide for a much improved customer experience. Support for the current order should be maintained so as to provide a common fleet of sufficient in size to manage efficiently, which might be converted to an all budget car in the future.

The plan above shows a concept that would allow for 1 Handicapped Bedroom, 11 Double bedrooms, and 1 single room for the attendant, all with full bathrooms, in a single 85’ car. The (12) revenue rooms are the same number of rooms as the new Viewliner order, with greater estimated revenue potential from an en suite restroom.

 

Double Bedroom (Proposed) [(1) x $0.75/mile + (11) x $0.55/mile] x 85% ocp = $5.78/car-mile

 

The concept works by creating a bathroom/wet space near the door to the corridor as is common in modern hotel layouts. The full size toilet and faucet remains fixed to the wall, with a sink built into a folding solid surface counter, which is hinged to the wall above the toilet. A secret sauce mechanism deploys a wainscot under the sink edge, such that the toilet is presentably hidden when the sink is down, allowing the side doors to be opened so that the entire space is a vanity area, counting toward the interior room volume in perception instead of a closed annex.

 

The area in front of this wall mounted combination is both the shower area and the entrance hall into the rest of the room, whose floor is made of a solid surface material with small groves leading to a perimeter drainage channel and a floor drain under the sink. The shower head would point toward the fixed toilet wall and drain, with the HVAC exhaust through this bathroom annex to a common ERV for fresh air exchanges.

 

Besides achieving just as many rooms as the Viewliner II, but with en suite bathrooms for all rooms, this arrangement makes the joining of two such rooms into a suite for large parties entirely possible as was common for the original Pullman Double Bedroom suites. Herein lies the killer app-lication, this suite option allows for a family to travel with children in the adjoining room, with either the wall panel folded back at all times or the communicating door cracked shut at bedtime for differing lights off times. The en suite bathroom allows for even a single parent to keep watch on children as they get ready for the day instead of heading down the hall with somebody to keep an eye on small children.

    

For those you look at this as too small a room relative to a hotel room, consider that the plan area of a full size SUV cabin is about 60” x 90” (5400 SQIN) for four people, while the main area of the Double Bedroom proposed is about 4500 SQIN for two people, or 6000 SQIN once the bathroom is included. Or consider the seats on a wide body aircraft at 17.2” wide x 31” pitch (533 SQIN) in Economy or 21” wide x 40” pitch (840 SQIN) in First. Sure you may get there by 11 PM or you may sit on the tarmac for almost 3 hours, then turn back and try it the next day with this potential tying into the evaluation of the utility of the trip.

 

This author has argued that non-stop air stages over 750 miles have obvious advantages, but so few of these exist relative to the vast majority of trips (Amtrak’s average trip length is 500+-ish miles in the east), are well below that range. A traveler’s evaluation of the total trip time for the more frequent trips below 750 miles hinges on the required connections through terminals and the access cost to get to the terminal. This point gets back to the opening statement that there appears to be little interest in increasing the utility of the eastern trains to match their potential while even greater monies are sought for infrastructure. This author has to wonder what the real reason could be and suspects if one were to find the real reason behind the delay of the Viewliner II order; be it political or institutional, much would be known.