So what do you think of the new VIA Rail "Prestige Class" Sleeper arrangement. I think it is pretty cool and have long thought Amtrak should try multiple class sleeping car arrangements more in line with this type of thing that VIA Rail is offering. I think the current Amtrak First Class could be upgraded a little with a additional premium added to the charge for the Compartment.
Additionally, why I don't see LD Rail Passenger Carriers doing this outside of the Rocky Mountaineer. I think there is plenty of room for luxury add-ons for Amtrak such as door to door baggage handling in some markets like what some of the airlines are attempting in some markets. Amtrak could enter a few joint marketing agreements as well where if you make a rental car reservation via Amtrak you get 15% off the rental plus Amtrak gets a small % of the total rental fee charged. Items like that I think could boost Amtraks bottom line a little more in the LD Train area.
This thing reminds me of the "Silver Bird" series of 5 cpt, 6 DBR cars used by the Burlington on the CZ and DZ. Until the mid 90's, we used a few of them on Amtrak no. 52-53. Yes, there is enough space to fit 11 rooms into that space. The proposed design is supposed to also include an attendant's room. I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but I suspect you won't fit 11 rooms plus an attendant's room into that length unless you eliminate such frivolous things as electrical lockers, equipment lockers, a linen locker, a public restroom, and a coffee station. I suppose the coffee station could be eliminated.
Too often, efficiency plans ignore some of the unique needs that inconveniently come along with operation of passenger service and passenger equipment.
Tom
I believe everything is there, (1) ADA room with a Keurig sized coffee stand outside in the crook at the end of the hall, (11) Double Bedrooms, and (1) attendent room which includes a shower as well. The electrical locker is on the end wall of the car by the attendent room, as is a storage space. There is also room for storage under ever other room with hall access. I don't see the need for a public restroom when every room has a full bathroom.
I have not had the opportunity to ride in the remodeled VIA sleepers. My understanding is that they use more space than the current Amtrak Deluxe Bedroom, now just a Bedroom. An important thing about the proposed design is is uses less room, about 70" per room along the car as opposed to 81", while still having a full bathroom. Most importantly there would seem to be a better perception of space due to the way the annex is arranged and a full sized sink and toilet is used in the plans.
I do really wish there were some value added services offered, such as door to door luggage (start with NYC). I suspect the reality is that there is so little sleeper rack stock to sell, it pratically seems to sell itself. I wonder say for example if the Crescent has room in the marketplace to float 6-8 sleepers after prorating from 1970's levels of operation and current population.
Now you guys are finally getting it. Grow revenues by providing more perks and space. I have pointed to via rail rebuilt park cars as a way to sell more space at a premium price In previous postings. Their is a market for this kind of service in the silver service.
I really don't want to be contrarian here, but I remain unconvinced.
I still don't see any linen locker, or any designated "clean" linen locker space sufficient to hold the large numbers of sheets, pillow cases, towels, washcloths, etc., plus a few extra pillows and extra blankets and one extra of each type/size of mattress. I don't see a designated storage area for dirty linen to be held pending removal from the train. I don't see a supply cabinet for a mop and other cleaning supplies, plus extra soap, extra toilet tissue and paper towels, etc. I don't see a separate (per F.D.A. requirements) storage area for extra coffee cups, creamers, sweeteners, stirrers, tea bags, etc. In the coffee machine area, I don't see a place to display a supply of coffee cups, creamers, etc. so that they will be available. I don't see adequate space for a trash receptacle in the coffee service area.
I don't know whether Amtrak foresees a future need for stepboxes. I do know the A.D.A. requirements call for entry/egress to be at station platform level. However, some stations are served by both low- and high-level equipment, and inevitable track settling will always cause some station platforms to poorly match entry heights. I suspect there will always be some need for stepboxes and bridge plate ramps for wheelchair passengers. The stepbox and the bridge plate have to be stored someplace. I don't see allowance for that.
The restroom/shower for the attendant's room shows no door. I presume there is one. Does it slide, or swing inward, or swing outward? Swinging into the toilet stall probably would be impractical because there's no room. Swinging outward means closing up the bed every time the restroom is used. A sliding door would probably interfere with the entry door. Is there a sink for the attendant to use after using the restroom? I don't see one.
The drawing shows the attendant's room having a sofa style seat & bed just like those in the other crosswise rooms. But it doesn't show any floor space for the attendant to stand up. There is no aisle for him to stand in while he makes his bed. Does he stand on his bed while getting dressed? How can he walk from the door to his room to the door of his restroom without walking/crawling over the bed or sofa?
I suggested the public restroom because the logical placement of the car is probably next to the diner, and diners have no restrooms. The restroom would be a great help to the diner patrons.
Maybe a more detailed drawing would show these things better and allay my concerns, but I remain skeptical.
Remember, a sleeping car is not just a vehicle to carry passengers. It's also a place where a human being has to work, and it has to be designed with the worker in mind, as well as the passenger. Several years ago Amtrak hired a hotshot Madison Avenue designer to redesign the uniforms for onboard service personnel. He came up with a design that could not be cleaned on the train because it had to be dry cleaned and pressed. It showed the dirt because it was too light in color. The color was gray. It was immediately noted by O.B.S. personnel that the only large organizations identified with gray uniforms are Greyhound bus drivers, the Confederate Army, and the Nazi army. The first is a competitor; the other two lost their respective wars and carried a stigma because of their positions on certain social issues. When interviewed, the designer said, "I've always wanted to do trains." His mistake was in not knowing that his job was NOT to do trains. His job was to "do" the working employees, and they did indeed feel that they had been "done".
The gray uniforms didn't last long enough to be introduced nationwide, and I think they were gone within a year or so. I'll bet the guy got paid anyway, but I don't know for sure.
ROBERT WILLISON Now you guys are finally getting it. Grow revenues by providing more perks and space. I have pointed to via rail rebuilt park cars as a way to sell more space at a premium price In previous postings. Their is a market for this kind of service in the silver service.
The last time I rode the VIA train between Jasper and Prince Rupert. Silver Class was completely empty and me and my Sister and one other passenger were the only passengers in Totem Class. It was nice to have the train with only three passengers on it but in that case..........Silver Class didn't make a difference.
ACY The color was gray. It was immediately noted by O.B.S. personnel that the only large organizations identified with gray uniforms are Greyhound bus drivers, the Confederate Army, and the Nazi army.
Not to be picky, but OBS should have also noted that the cadets at West Point ("The Long Grey Line") and several other military academies (VMI, the Citadel) also wear grey. Feldgrau (field grey, actually a greenish grey) was the traditional German regular army uniform since 1907. Not the "Nazi uniform" as their organizations, such as the SS wore black and the SA tan-khaki uniforms.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Schlimm:
Touche.
I certainly meant no disrespect to the men and women of West Point, VMI, The Citadel, et. al. Actually, the comments that went around at the time rose out of a visceral, negative reaction from O.B.S. personnel at the time, and I think we unanimously were looking for negative images to make our point to Management. The positive image of those cadets probably never occurred to anybody. As for subtleties in shadings of gray, the point was a general one. And it's true that very fervent Nazis like the S.S. wore black. Nevertheless, the German Army represented and fought hard for the German Nazi government, so the connection is there.
schlimm ACY The color was gray. It was immediately noted by O.B.S. personnel that the only large organizations identified with gray uniforms are Greyhound bus drivers, the Confederate Army, and the Nazi army. Not to be picky, but OBS should have also noted that the cadets at West Point ("The Long Grey Line") and several other military academies (VMI, the Citadel) also wear grey. Feldgrau (field grey, actually a greenish grey) was the traditional German regular army uniform since 1907. Not the "Nazi uniform" as their organizations, such as the SS wore black and the SA tan-khaki uniforms.
I appreciate the correct naming of the Citadel; all too many people do not know that "the" is a part of the name. The subdivision where I lived for almost thirty-nine years is named "Academy Park." I lived on the mis-named West Point Drive (which is confusing to anyone who thinks it is the western part of Point Drive); there is another mis-named street--Annapolis, and one named Citadel.
Johnny
I don't see your point. I ridden on the same train when it was full. And I am not referring to silver class but the new service they began this year.
Hard to compare the via operation to Amtrak's NYC ( northeast corridor population ) the silver service trains handle two to three sleepers on a regular basis with no special marketing or equipment.
V.PayneHowever, there seems to be significant un-meet demand for something between the Viewliner Roomette and the few Viewliner Bedrooms, which can be combined into suites but at much higher costs.
I think this is just another of the good, or at least plausible, inovations discussed on these forms over the years.
The real shame is that Amtrak just seems so oblivious.
I wonder if there is a way to collect these ideas and give them some decent exposure so that they might exert enough pressure on Amtrak to get them to at least wake up.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I suppose the storage for coffee cups would be in the room or alternately they would be individually wraped under the shelf with the Keurig machine. I had envisioned a vertical tree of storage cabinets, and shelves for the coffee stand, and of course with the Keurig any flavor is available. The bridge plate hangs against the end wall.
Yes, the drawing is a high level sketch (though it is not in the resolution I had it in natively, will try to improve the resolution - PM me and I can email you the PDF from AutoCAD). The attendant room is a bit larger than the current room in width (about 42"), so there is a bit more floor/foot space than currently provided. Yes, there would be a sliding door to the attendant shower/toilet, and the bed has to be up to use it. It would not interfere with the entry door. I had planned a 35" wide shower area there. I guess one of the larger conceptual questions is why could the 87' length of the Acela coaches not be used instead of the 85' standard car.
The beds are full sized twins (38" wide), so the sense of scale is probably skewed relative to the current narrow beds. A storage locker could be provided at every other room, under the crosswise sofa/bed, with a door to the aisle. There should be more storage space in total, not less. For long term storage, say for parts like spare windows or furniture replacements, the undercar lockers in the V-II design could be used.
Conceptually, this design moves more space to private rooms, instead of common facility areas like shared restrooms and shower areas. This is the way to get more revenue per mile and meet the expectations of a larger portion of the public.
I think you have an excellent idea and that AC's well-formulated questions have been answered. I truly hope you can sell the idea to Amtrak.
Taking the role of the non-professional iconoclast (thanks, JK!) my comment is this. Why does Amtrak need yet another sleeping car design on top of those it already has, especially at a time when everywhere else sleeping car services are being reduced because they serve so few customers? Fast corridors are the correct direction.
Well, I've never said the idea is impossible, but I'm still not ready to jump on the bandwagon.
Your linen locker solution is to have 6 or 7 separate linen lockers under the lower berths. I don't like having the clean linen stored in an area on the floor, which is prone to collect dust etc. Accessing linen items will be a cumbersome, backbreaking chore after the first three or four attempts. Remember, some of the items in those floor-level lockers will be all the way in the back. On those occasions when the stock arrives five or ten minutes before boarding (and don't think it doesn't happen), it will be impossible to get that many individual lockers stocked. Also, I still don't see where there is a separate area for soiled linens.
Maybe your detailed drawings will show the attendant's room more clearly. Until then, the sliding door still concerns me.
One issue I had not mentioned has to do with the berths that run parallel to the rails. It's been a long time since I worked those "Silver Bird" cars, so I'd forgotten. The upper berths were always prone to jamming halfway between the stowed and open position. I don't know how to correct this, but the old Budd design would not be appropriate. I've also operated another design for these uppers, which I think were on U.P. cars. They were slightly better, but sometimes still gave problems. Some entirely new arrangement would have to be devised.
I guess my objections could mostly be addressed by eliminating one room and using that space to provide a little more space for the things that concern me. I know this cuts into revenue, but it's the only alternative that makes sense to me.
By the way, where is the PA box? It has to be at the vestibule end.
Edit: After writing the above, I returned to the floor plan to see which is the vestibule end. Maybe it's the area to the left, which I had presumed to have the coffee station on one side and the electrical locker on the other. If that's the vestibule, then there is no place designated for the electrical locker, coffee maker, and coffee supplies. If it is the area to the left, it needs to be moved to the right in order to be adjacent to the attendant's room so that he can get access to his supplies during boarding or immediately before detraining. Then you'll still have to find a place for the coffee station and electrical locker. Maybe if you could build the car 95 or 100 feet long?
second edit: I don't think the coffee maker & associated supplies will fit in the crook opposite the accessible room.
schlimmWhy does Amtrak need yet another sleeping car design on top of those it already has, especially at a time when everywhere else sleeping car services are being reduced because they serve so few customers?
Whether they need it or not -- I'm fascinated to watch a design engineer and a very experienced Amtrak guy 'dialoguing' and, in the process, working through a tremendous number of design desiderata in a short time. I'd be interested to see how many of these points, details, and thoughts could be applied to arrangements within the 'modular'-compatible Viewliner shell.
Addressing the wider point: Has it not been said repeatedly that there's a big 'hole' between two classes of sleeper service on Amtrak, and a service that fills this might attract considerable 'new business'?
I also think that most of the 'fast corridor' trains are likely to get funded in large part with state and regional money -- as they should be. The LD trains are much more reliant on finding operating models that cover 'more' of their costs, and I encourage any thoughtful effort, be it in operations, food service, sleepers, or 'perquisites' that make travel more effective out of proportion to expense, that makes the LD service less 'politically undesirable'...
WizlishAddressing the wider point: Has it not been said repeatedly that there's a big 'hole' between two classes of sleeper service on Amtrak, and a service that fills this might attract considerable 'new business'?
I was trying to address the "wider point" AFAIK. I am wondering just how settled is the issue of a 'big hole" between two classes of sleeper service and how you define "considerable new business?"
As far as engineering goes, I failed to see or overlooked any answer to Tom in re: standing room in the crew room to make the bed.
Where is the evidence they serve so few people sclimm?
ROBERT WILLISON Where is the evidence they serve so few people sclimm?
Look at Amtrak reports. Where is the evidence for the "hole" in accommodations in Amtrak sleepers?
schlimmI was trying to address the "wider point" AFAIK. I am wondering just how settled is the issue of a 'big hole" between two classes of sleeper service and how you define "considerable new business?"
I don't think it's settled at all, and indeed it may not exist. Even if it does there isn't any guarantee enough people would take advantage of it to cover the marginal cost, let alone the initial capital expenditure.
But if there is, in fact, a justification for doing it, we're doing no harm thrashing out and fleshing out what cars for providing it will look like.
I, too, am waiting for the answer on how to make those beds...
schlimm Taking the role of the non-professional iconoclast (thanks, JK!) my comment is this. Why does Amtrak need yet another sleeping car design on top of those it already has, especially at a time when everywhere else sleeping car services are being reduced because they serve so few customers? Fast corridors are the correct direction.
dakotafred If Congress doesn't like it, let them man up and get rid of Amtrak -- if they can. No Amtrak would be better than the gutless version -- buses on rails -- that some people envision.
So you would prefer no passenger rail service if sleepers and full-service dining cars were phased out or diminished/modified? Really? Sorry Fred, but you sound like the kid taking home "his" football when things don't go his way.
I just recalled a simple way to post a PDF of the Floorplan, which is a sligthly revised version of the earlier design. Honestly, I like hearing a bit of constructive criticism and certainly Tom has been there. I still suppose the scale is throwing off the discussion, as the beds are a bit larger than the 28" x 78" Viewliner Roomette beds. Having taken a look at the drawing again I noticed that they are 36"x 80", close to the original Pullman beds, which are quite comfortable considering your are traveling at the same time.
So even the attendent's room is providing a better bed than the current Roomette revenue rooms, and it has an ensuite bathroom, though not as spacious as the proposed revenue rooms. Perhaps if there is a late delivery of linens or stock it could be placed in the attendent's room till ready to be stowed later in the trip. The lower lockers are a little different, though the thought was for them to function just like a drawer, though on nylon slides.
Did I also mention that this design would allow for all rooms to have a sofa facing the direction of travel! The concept would be for the rooms with lengthwise beds to have a completly movable sofa, that would lock into a slit in the wall, similar to those used for removable seats in SUV's, though with a lot more padding.
I don't have exact dimensions of the shower annex in the Viewliner Bedroom, but from what I have been able to scale the proposed bedroom annex would be significantly larger at 33"x 46" to 50". I was thinking about nylon sliders at three corners for the bed mechanism for lateral bracing and vertical support, with a single strap wound to a motorizied torsion rod in the ceiling for the other corner. A manual crank to overcome failures would need to be provided. Perhaps with this provision the passengers might be able to put the bed down themselves with the touch of a button.
Does anybody have an accurate floorplan for the new or old Viewliners that I could scale and place next to the proposed design for comparison? Please send me a PM to get my email if you can send it.
What " hole" are you referring too?
Jeez, I hate to be the wet blanket. I know you're putting a lot of effort into this.
The idea of having the linens in a drawer would definitely be an improvement, but I keep looking at worst-case scenarios. I guess it comes from spending too much time on Crew 3's Safety Committee. The linen drawers would have to be locked with a berth key to prevent unauthorized opening. If the latch fails, the drawer could slide out into the aisle & become a serious tripping hazard. I still don't like the fact that those drawers are basically at floor level. FDA's rules require that consumable food items and the equipment used to prepare & serve them must be at least 6" off the floor. I think the same should apply, at a minimum, to clean linens. too much stooping can lead to back injuries, which are already a serious problem among O.B.S. employees. I could imagine a Federal sanitation regulation being issued after the cars are built, requiring linens to be kept at a higher level, which would render these multiple linen lockers unusable. Similar effects were felt as a result of FDA food service regs and ADA regs.
The idea of having all rooms face the same direction is one I applaud, but I've seen many occasions where the switching crew doesn't care. In such a case, they could all be facing backwards. This certainly isn't the fault of the design or the designer.
I'll have to look at the new PDF. I'll be looking for such things as wall thickness, floor space, safety hazards, etc.
I still suggest that it might be best to eliminate one room pair, either at the center or at the attendant room end, and put the coffee station, linen lockers, etc. there. In any event, the linen locker (just one big one, please) should be near the vestibule, and the attendant's room and PA box should also be at the vestibule ("B") end. I never worked Viewliner sleepers, so I don't know how these things are arranged on those cars.
edit: I just looked at the PDF and have some more concerns. On the old "Silver Bird" and similar 11 bedroom cars, the rooms with beds parallel to the rails, had half-sofa seats that faced the opposite direction, so that the wall beteween the two rooms could be folded away or a door in the wall opened so the rooms could be set up ensuite for larger parties. The idea of having all rooms face the same direction is laudable, but it makes it impossible to set the rooms up ensuite. This is a popular option, especially for families with small children, and it would probably have to be a feature of the new design.
Those "parallel" rooms have only one built-in sofa, but they are two-person rooms. A separate folding chair would be a non-starter because it could become dangerous projectile in the event of a derailment. Amtrak learned this the hard way, and mounted a small folding chair firmly to the wall in bedrooms. I don't see space for one in those rooms.
Many couples, especially seniors, prefer not to use the upper berth at all, with both sleeping in the lower berth. This was pretty crowded in Heritage cars, but is more practical in the newer cars because of much wider lower berths in double bedrooms. When asked if the lower is actually a double bed, I would tell the passengers "it depends on how close you are as friends." I have a feeling that these rooms will have lower berths that are about a foot narrower than the current Superliner and Viewliner lower berths.
(additional edits were also added to the original text)
T
ROBERT WILLISON What " hole" are you referring too?
The same one referred to by Wizlish.
Wizlish Addressing the wider point: Has it not been said repeatedly that there's a big 'hole' between two classes of sleeper service on Amtrak, and a service that fills this might attract considerable 'new business'?
schlimm dakotafred If Congress doesn't like it, let them man up and get rid of Amtrak -- if they can. No Amtrak would be better than the gutless version -- buses on rails -- that some people envision. So you would prefer no passenger rail service if sleepers and full-service dining cars were phased out or diminished/modified? Really? Sorry Fred, but you sound like the kid taking home "his" football when things don't go his way.
I think if Amtrak were reduced to providing only Spartan LD service, they would still have to offer a "business class" and somehow make it worthwhile. And there would still be people like me that would prefer trains. I'd come with a pillow and blanket, a good stock of travel-storage-able food and drink, and some knowledge of how to get more enroute.
The one time I did LA-Chi on the El Cap, I enjoyed the trip. Glad I did it.
dakotafred schlimm dakotafred If Congress doesn't like it, let them man up and get rid of Amtrak -- if they can. No Amtrak would be better than the gutless version -- buses on rails -- that some people envision. So you would prefer no passenger rail service if sleepers and full-service dining cars were phased out or diminished/modified? Really? Sorry Fred, but you sound like the kid taking home "his" football when things don't go his way. Ah, but Schlimm, what have you been calling for, for years, but an end to LD service? (All you care about is your corridors.) I love LD -- and am only saying that the Builders and Chiefs aren't worth preserving without sleepers and diners. (I can already hop on a bus, surface or air, anytime I want.)
Yes, I know you and others love LD trains (I did long ago as well). I do not feel they serve much more than a tiny niche of the transportation mix.I recognize the need to keep some, but only with the current mix of equipment, which is not spartan as you would agree. Speculating about now equipment on top of the Viewliner II order seems like a trip to "Nostalgialand" more appropriate for some land cruise operator like Pullman.
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