Schlimm if the hole you are referring to is the difference between Amtrak's new marketing scheme to sell sleeper space without the meal service. Then I think the true market is to make that hole even wider. The revenue and the market is their for more Perk's and higher priced first class service, marketed better with upgraded equipment. Some runs might be better suited for a diner similar to the diner/ 4 double bedroom cars the nkp operated. Build revenue with much improved service rather than trying to cut expenses Thur down grading.
I hope this answers the question from Tom in regards to allowing the rooms to be combined. Going back to the first post that is the primary concept, and was for the original Pullman Double Bedroom in the lengthwise/crosswise configuration.
Here is everything showing what two rooms look like opened up together. The key is that the common 4'-7" dimension, between the room dividing wall and the straight wall along the bathrooms allows for the partition to rotate back as one piece. The sofas are designed just like a removable bench seat from a SUV, with the lower level restraint system indicated by triangles. The sofa also follows the common 4'-7" dimesion and could conceptual fit in three positions. Just like in modern SUVs the sofa is designed with a transfer wheel, such that when it is disengaged and tilted slightly it will roll around like luggage on the rollers. Of course the back of the sofa folds over to allow the bed to drop down.
The image below is the current Viewliner I floorplan. In my view it seems like a bit of space is wasted perhaps as they were trying to keep to the 81" modules and ended up using more space on the Handicapped room than other configurations would require. Perhaps Tom could let us know the various uses. There is not a general restroom that I am aware of. I suppose if it really came down to it and some larger closests are needed, then a different handicapped configuration could be used in the proposed design and 11 revenue type rooms provided all alike, with the attendent taking one. That way if a feature of the room is not working just right, the attendent could take that room. Though with some of the do-it-yourself features in the proposed design perhaps there is the ability to go to one attendent per two cars, so then only 1/2 a revenue room would be offset.
In this enlarged view, I can't see the door locations. I thought I knew where they were, but now I'm not so sure.
I can't answer questions about Viewliners since, as I said, I never worked them. My sleeper experience was limited to Heritage 10-6's, Heritage 11 BR (actually 5-6's), Superliner II standard, and Superliner II all-deluxe 10-BR cars. Since retiring, I haven't had an opportunity to ride other trains with Viewliners, but I hope to.
I presume that the electrical locker in a Viewliner is located in the space across from the "H" restroom, and the linen locker is located between room 1 and Bedroom B. I don't know where they store cleaning supplies in a Viewliner. Apparently there is no coffee station, hence no need to store coffee supplies. The attendant's room, which I take to be the room across from the public shower, is located in a position that seems to me to be absolutely terrible, at the opposite end from the vestibule. I think I'm glad I've never had to work one of these cars.
I still don't see an electrical locker in your design, and I think the low level of the linen supply drawers will make them impractical backbreakers and potential tripping hazards. I don't think the coffee maker will fit in the available space, especially since cups, creamers, etc. must be supplied, plus a small counter where the cup can be placed while the cream & sugar is added, lids affixed, etc.
I don't see a closet for hanging clothes, although I suppose they could be hung up in the open.
Location of the door to the left-hand restroom will probably make seat option 2 impossible unless that seat is considerably shorter than 4'7"".
Where are the doors from the aisle to enter the rooms? It looks like you have to enter through the restrooms. That won't be popular. In any event, sliding doors may be more practical. (This paragraph edited May 9, 9:30 am EDT)
One seat 4'7" wide will be more than enough for one person, but not enough space for two people on an overnight trip that includes many hours of daytime travel. Assuming the seat in option 2 is narrowed, does that mean the movable wall gives you option 1, but not option 3? Amtrak will not approve a second seat that is not firmly fixed to the wall or floor. A seat mounted on a movable partition (options 1 and 3) will be a hard sell as it stands. It looks like the wall won't be movable, but it might work if the option 1 seat is narrowed to provide a door between rooms. This would require seat backs that are removed or folded down. (This paragraph edited May 9, 9:20 am EDT)
Yes, the attendant could conceivably use a room that is bad-ordered for a minor problem, but you are assuming the displaced passenger can use the attendant's room. Remember that the attendant's room is equipped with the Annunciator Board, which rings loudly enough to rouse a sleeping attendant during his designated rest period whenever a call button is pushed during the night. We can't have the displaced passenger further inconvenienced, so some design changes would have to address this. Maybe some entirely new approach to the Annunciator system.
As for assigning one attendant to two cars, I have met exactly one attendant in my entire career who could do it. It happened when we went out short-staffed, and it wasn't I who worked it. It was a fellow whom I trained. He was eventually able to do the work faster than I ever could. We became very good friends, and I always joked that I would concede that he was faster, but I would never agree that he was better. Two cars for one attendant is an idea straight from hell. Don't give Management any ideas.
Tom
(significantly edited May 9)
Tom, Viewliners do have a coffee station; it is near the shower (I do not remember just where), I never thought to locate the various lockers (I have ridden far more Superliners than Viewliners); it will be next spring before I ride another Viewliner.
Johnny
Thanks, Johnny. Now I see it. It appears that the coffee station in the proposed new design occupies a triangular space across the aisle from the "H" room. It's hard to tell in the drawings, but it looks like it occupies about 1/2 as many square inches as the coffee station in the Viewliners. Unless a redesign is in the offing, those machines are not triangular, so I suspect they will intrude too far into the aisle.
P.S. See my edited post of last night.
I may well be wrong, but it seems to me even in the 50s-60s, all double bedroom cars were uncommon. Why should they be needed now?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I still think the relative scale is being lost. I will paste a scaled image of a Viewliner I in the AutoCAD drawing, then plot both side by side. For example, I don't see the current Viewliner I coffee area (housed in a recess of the shower room/module) as being any larger than what I have shown (22"x22" with a round edge). A new Keurig 2.0 machine is 9"wide x 12" deep so there would seem to be room. For additonal reference, I have a good drawing of a 10-6 that I could also scale and plot in the for comparison drawing.
Correct me if I am wrong, but a standard coach seat pair is 3'-9" wide , so it would seem that a 4'-7" sofa would suffice for two people. I have some knowledge of the restraint requirements. They should not be a problem, as in Option 1, the sofa is actually restrained to the fixed walls, spanning past the movable partition.
The point and perhaps innovation of this configuration (see first post) is indeed to allow entry through the hard surfaced restroom area, but to allow it to be presentable duirng the day by hiding the toilet under a full sized sink vanity. This design is of course a variation on the Pullman crosswise/lengthwise design that was the last evolution of sleeper car rooms. My understanding is at the end of Pullman, they roomettes were less used, and there were even some conversions of mixed cars to all bedroom configurations.
If you zoom in a bit on the PDF, you can see labels for most everything now. As to the annunciator and PA, perhaps I am looking too far into the future, but these kind of things seem to be ideal mobile device apps, with a phone or tablet communicating back to a server in the car.
I am just curious, which was a better car to work, 11 Bedroom or Superliner II?
I don't think I've ever seen a 9" wide Keurig coffee dispenser. If such a thing exists, it might fit.
Two people side-by-side on a 4' 7" seat means 2' 3-1/2" per person. I guess that would work.
I don't understand the folding wall at all. If it hinges as shown, the seat ends up on the wrong side of the wall in one position or the other. To make it work, I think opening it would mean that the process of moving a wall from the closed position to the open position would mean sliding the left side of the sofa towards the restroom door while sliding the right side of the sofa from the outside wall towards the restroom wall. This would be an unsecure arrangement in an accident situatiion, and I don't think Amtrak would go for it. It might work to secure the partition in the closed position, install a seat on that wall (about 2 to 2-1/2 feet wide) next to the outer wall, and put a door in the partition between the seat and restroom wall. This would be a compromise. It would not allow the room to be opened up to its full width, but it would allow access.
The entry through the restroom is problematic. Imagine Mr. Traveler coming back from the lounge car at the exact moment when Mrs. Traveler is taking a shower. And would Mr. Traveler sue Amtrak if he slipped on the wet floor on his way in after his wife is finished? Incidentally, I think this puts the sink/vanity into the shower stall, but I may be wrong.
I agree that an entirely new technological approach might solve the Annunciator problem.
I don't know about the different markets for single travelers in an economy room vs. two travelers in an economy room, vs. two travelers in a bedroom. The Marketing Dept would have to answer those questions. Of the six Superliner II sleepers (now 7, I understand) on each Auto Train consist, two are all-deluxe 10-bedroom cars. When we used Heritage cars, it was approximately half 10-6's and half 11 Bedroom cars. These distributions match(ed) the market pretty well, but this may not be correct for other trains.
Incidentally, Amtrak changed the name of the economy rooms several years ago, and now calls them roomettes. I never went along with that change, and called them economy rooms until my last day on the job. I never saw a memo directing me to change my vocabulary, so I didn't. I worked many a roomette, and many an economy room, and I know the difference, even if Amtrak's Marketing Dept. and Reservations Dept. don't. Also, I haven't noticed anybody calling the berths "bunks" in this thread. Thank you all. They are beds or berths. Bunks are in cowboy ranch houses, or on ships. That term, applied to sleeping cars, is like fingernails on a chalkboard IMO. If this is a rant, I apologize to all.
Which was easier to work? That's a kind of apples & oranges question. The first time I worked an 11 bedroom car, it was already about 25 years old and showed its years. Actually, the Superliner II's are now nearing 20 years, and are holding up better than I would have predicted. A Heritage car had 22 berths, whether it was a 10-6 or an 11 Bedroom car, and the attendant slept somewhere else on the train unless he had an unsold room. A Superliner II has 32 berths if it's a deluxe car; 42 if it's a standard car, not counting the attendant's room. A Superliner bed is basically easier to make than a Pullman bed. A Pullman bed is easier to make SO THAT IT IS ATTRACTIVE AND INVITING to the passenger. It's harder to make a truly comfortable, attractive Superliner bed. The extra beds and the need to go up and down the stairs frequently, probably make the Superliners more demanding. The "rollover" upper berths in the Heritage rooms with beds parallel to the rails (in the CB&Q "Silver Bird" cars) sometimes gave a lot of problems and probably caused a significant number of back injuries. I always treated them with kid gloves, so they didn't cause me as many problems as they did for some others. That's one reason I have misgivings about that arrangement here. Storage space in the Superliners is much more limited, unless you can use the downstairs luggage space for some supplies.
As for the old coffee stations, I always made excellent coffee in the old-time pots, using plain, bagged coffee (i.e., starting with ground roast coffee beans). At least one conductor always sought out my car for his morning coffee. After being on duty all night, he was ready for something bracing and tasty and not bitter. It was far better than anything out of any machine. Alas, those old machines won't be coming back because they weren't tamper-proof, and couldn't be constantly watched. FDA and the Legal Dept., you know.
Tom, I agree that the Superliner berths (and Viewliner berths) are not as comfortable as Pullman berths, which had real mattresses and not pads that are spread over the lower berths or thick pads in the upper berths. Certainly, you do not have to wrestle a mattress down from the upper berth when making the lower berth in an Amtrak sleeper. However, I am thankful that I am able to truly lie down at night when traveling.
As an aside, when I make reservations on VIA, I ask for a bedroom, not a "cabin for two, " (whoever takes my request knows what I mean) and I am delighted when I am given room F in a Manor sleeper--it is a compartment, and costs no more than an A, B,C, or D. The last trip my wife and I took on VIA, I asked for a drawing room on each train that carried such--and we occupied a "cabin for three" each time (my wife preferred to sleep parallel to the outside wall).
I have always found the coffee in the sleepers to be at least fairly good--but I will not drink the orange juice found there--is it fresh juice on the Virginia-Florida train?
Johnny ---
Sadly, it's not fresh, and very often hasn't even been from Florida --- or any place else in this country. I don't know about the current source.
schlimm I may well be wrong, but it seems to me even in the 50s-60s, all double bedroom cars were uncommon. Why should they be needed now? in the 50's and 60's many long haul trains had half the cars as all bedroom, vs the 10-6. This includes the Florida service, Super Chief, City of Los Angeles, Cascade, Lark, Broadway, 20th Century etc. These included 11 bed, 12 bed and the 4-4-2 type car that had 2 drawing rooms, 4 compartments, 4 bedrooms. Various other type all double room cars were also done. Amtrak has discourged - lost because of so few rooms and lack of a good on board service. Up until a few years ago, all the LD Superlines could have used a all bedroom superliner. Now ridership has gone to hell, and would not support them unless, a (NEW) Amtrak was organized. Group tour operates would loved to have all double room cars. Every tour that I operated had to have 3 superliners to cover the demand. I was in the busines for 40+ years.
As mentioned earlier, I put together a comparison drawing showing a Pullman 10-6, the proposed bedroom design discussed in this thread with revised en-suite full bathrooms, and a sketh of a Viewliner-I at this link. The drawings are scaled longitudinally, but not on the width direction, and the Viewliner drawing is really just a sketch, not a drawing. As mentioned before the space provided is larger in most respects to that in the Viewliner-I or II as I understand that design.
Having thought about the original proposal, I can see an alternate version that would alternate between "bunk" beds and queen size beds, every other room, while still getting 12 rooms with en-suite bathrooms into the car (including a handicapped room and a attendant room that would just be a stock room.
As regards to staffing, my understanding is VIA has 2 attendants for every 3 sleepers. Comparing the number of rooms in a Superliner, two single level cars are just a few rooms more than a Superliner, and would be on one level. With an addendum to the contract, would it be better to figure on one attendant covering two cars should modern labor saving devices be incorporated such as tablet based attendant calls and perhaps a "ground" crew that would pre-make beds prior to departure. Mostly pre-making beds would be possible with the types of true "Pullman" beds shown as opposed to the slide together seat cushions Amtrak beds now in use.
When I was working sleepers, I never wanted anybody else to premake beds for me because I was the one who would be there to present that bed to the passenger, and I wanted to be sure it was right. But I'm probably in the minority in that respect.
I haven't seen any labor saving devices in any of your proposals. It was harder and more time consuming to make a bed in the old Heritage sleepers. It is harder to make a comfortable and attractive bed in the Superliners.
The attendant's room "would just be a stock room." So does the attendant sleep on the roof? Is he on duty continuously from departure to destination terminal? Where does he store his grip?
Please don't call any sleeping car bed a "bunk". Bunks are found in boy scout cabins, aboard ships, and in cowboy bunkhouses. The beds in sleeping cars are berths.
I had hoped this thread would just go away.
A stock room would be the attendant's room, in the sense that it would be exactly the same as one for sale to the public. This helps with rotating out rooms for defects and would be possible with a tablet based attendant call.
schlimm I may well be wrong, but it seems to me even in the 50s-60s, all double bedroom cars were uncommon. Why should they be needed now?
Well first folks were shorter in height back then #1. Second, Husband and Wife were used to sleeping on Twin beds vs. together on a King which is the norm now. King beds when they first came out were considered decadent and immoral.....they lost that taboo probably in the 1960's thank goodness for us taller folks. It is fun to watch the old "I Love Lucy" reruns and see them retire on seperate twin beds for the night. While the Amtrak births are largely twins, the wider the better, IMO and for some reason the Economy beds seem narrow even though they are not much different than the Bedroom beds. I think it has to do with the narrowness of the compartment itself.
I can also tell you in my experience the Economy Room beds are too narrow for my Parents even though I fit just fine in them and I am taller than my Parents. They fought over the lower birth in the Double Bedroom because it is wider than the upper.......they also liked NOT HAVING TO WALK DOWN THE HALLWAY TO USE THE JOHN. Which I capitalized since Amtrak seems to be moving in the opposite direction with lavoritory location. They used the in-room toilet but neither one of them being elderly wanted to try the shower on a moving train (afraid of slipping and falling). They used the sink more than for washing hands as they bring liquor and wine with them and usually get a bucket of Ice from elsewhere on the train and the sink is a nice to have to dump the ice in. Also they drink lots of water and usually never finish the last cup.
The other item they mentioned is they liked the double bedroom because of more room in that they rise at different times in the morning and my Father likes to get dressed right away and he mentioned in the Economy he had to slide the door open to put on his shoes and socks and it was more of a luxury to have a seperate chair to do that and be able to move around a bit in a Bedroom compartment.
This and That
To me, a double bedroom is a room with two berths and is slightly smaller than a compartment (of course, not all of us are familiar with the "heritage" sleepers). Thus, an Amtrak "roomette" is a double bedroom. Should we not all use Amtrak's current terminology so that we all know what the poster means?
I knew no couples who slept on twin beds.
After our first trip on which we occupied Superliners, my wife and I always slept together in the lower berth, until our last trip whereon she had to travel in the "accessible" bedroom--and I had to sleep in the upper berth, remembering not to rise up suddenly.
I have yet to find a comfortable chair in a Superliner bedroom--and it seems that no one is concerned that the arms need repair. I do find that the chair seats are hard, and could use some cushioning.
When we last went to Florida, no bedrooms were available, so we reserved a roomette each way--and reserved a second roomette for the return trip, for the room was too small for the two of us.
Years ago, Hollywood had a tabu against showing married couples in bed together. (Not all of us remember that far back.) Also, you heard no cursing in movies; there was a quite a bit of discussion concerning presenting Rhett Butler's last statement in Gone with the Wind. (My wife bought a copy of Scarlett, which was written by someone who was not familiar with usages of the late nineteenth century, yet tried to present a sequel to Miss Mitchell's masterpiece. My suggestion: don't waste your time on it.)
I do use the shower--and am glad if I am able to use it during a station stop such as Omaha.
One more "This and That"
Aside from the Park cars and the remodeling that has produced the Prestige class, VIA has two different floor plans in the stainless steel cars: the Manor series has 3 sections, 4 roomettes, 5 bedrooms, 1 compartment, the shower room, and 2 public toilets; the Chateau series (in my experience, used on the Canadian only when the traffic is heavy; perhaps it is used more now) has 3 sections, 8 duplex roomettes (slightly smaller than roomettes and staggered in height above the aisle floor), 3 bedrooms, 1 drawing room, the shower room, and 2 public toilets. All of the toilets now are so equipped that they do not discharge to the track. Has anyone heard of freezing problems with these cars? I understand that the Renaissance equipment (designed for use in France and England) did have freezing problems when first used in Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. I wish that both of our trips into the Atlantic Provinces could have been in the Budd equipment; Our first trip was in Renaissance cars both ways; the second trip was Budd going east and Renaissance coming back.
A bit more than a decade ago I was talking to Colorado Railcar prior to the reorganization. Back then I was suggesting their might be room for them to build then lease sleepers to NRPC to a different design oriented more toward economy.
The comment I got back is that they had performed some market research and had come to the conclusion that travelers wanted a en-suite bath and single level beds and had produced a prototype. I am sure this would be a different demographic they were looking at compared to Amtrak's common carier transportation mandate, but it does speak to the market. The Pullman bedrooms that this concept is based upon would allow for both beds to be on the lower level when rooms are combined to a suite, which was done in the days of Pullman as the accomodation charge was relatively less than the fare.
This fits with the last two poster's comments it would seem. There is a lot of effort put into the one handicapped room, while perhaps there needs to be more effort put into the other rooms to afford the larger population that has some degree of discomfort in travel some better options. When I get a chance I will draw the version of this design that has alternating berths (stacked beds) and queen beds in rooms that could be combined to a suite so that a family could travel together in comfort as well.
V.Payne I wonder say for example if the Crescent has room in the marketplace to float 6-8 sleepers after prorating from 1970's levels of operation and current population.
Just looked and there is sleeper space available 4 of the next 7 days northbound from Atlanta.
I think airline dereg sucked the air out of what was left of sleeper business between the NEC and ATL. Airfare is really low. You can get a one way ticket for less than $150 flying any day from tomorrow on....
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Maybe I am looking in the wrong place but Atlanta to Washington is completely sold out tomorrow, 7/16 Thursday and 7/17 Friday, all classes. You could only get the "last fare bucket" roomette for $1.0/mile on Saturday for two people, then on Sunday same last bucket for a roomettle or $1.2/mile for a last fare bucket bedroom, with coach seats also available for a bit more than $0.3 per mile for two people.
This seems to suggest some unmet demand for sleepers in that Amtrak reserves their last high bucket to pick up some steep fares. Consider that the incremental cost to pay for everything to add a sleeper to a train running is about $0.3 per room mile. As usual access cost to and from the airport can drive total costs up along with baggage and fees, as Amtrak is essentially a refundable fare.
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