For the past decade or more, my carrier has been active in persuing the clossing of road crossings. Last report that I had heard stated that more than a thousand had been closed, of course there are more than 28,000 that are still open.
People never want crossings closed, even when realistic alternate routes have grade separation and the overall distance between their origins and destinations via either route is negligible.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Phoebe Vet Obviously we do not have, and never will have, enough money to suddenly reconstruct every crossing. I suggest two things. First, STOP CREATING NEW GRADE LEVEL CROSSINGS. Second, each year, close or reconstruct those crossings that have had the highest number of collisions during the previous ten years. Eventually, the number of collisions will be reduced.
Obviously we do not have, and never will have, enough money to suddenly reconstruct every crossing. I suggest two things. First, STOP CREATING NEW GRADE LEVEL CROSSINGS. Second, each year, close or reconstruct those crossings that have had the highest number of collisions during the previous ten years. Eventually, the number of collisions will be reduced.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Grade separation, like everything else, requires a cost-benefit analysis.
There is one stretch of lightly-used rail which crosses a number of public streets, the entrances to a large gas station/travel center and umpteen street-to-carport driveways. It sees three trains on a busy day, mostly in the 0-dark-00s I doubt that that branch generates enough gross revenue in a century to pay for the cost of total grade separation for those several small-town urban blocks. The town and county aren't concerned. Neither are the homeowners.
Granted that we started out discussing Amtrak. An Amtrak vs. rubberwheeler will generate statewide coverage. Amtrak with fatalities, NBC and ABC are all over it. Freight vs. vehicle won't even make the local news unless there are fatalities or major damage to anything beside the vehicle. (We had one here a couple of days ago. 30 seconds on the local news, because the driver met St. Peter ahead of schedule.)
Chuck (lives where Amtrak doesn't run)
ACY Call me when somebody mentions trains again. Tom
Call me when somebody mentions trains again.
Tom
Well we went over the grade crossing improvement programs that still have money in them year after year and we still have several posters stuck on the guns vs butter argument when it has already been pointed out this is really a guns with butter issue. We have the funds each year and the funds are rarely exhausted on a year to year basis..........which means not a whole lot of RR crossing improvement projects are being applied for against the existing funds.
That is the crux of this specific issue.
How do you figure I'm living in fear? My comment was in response to the US getting out of everywhere else and spending the money here.
I do not live in fear of much of anything. I'm far from any place anyone would ever bother with. I am very much a supporter of our military. My father was in b24's in the S Pacific in ww2 and a god son is an A10 pilot, currently over there. Fear, no. concern, yes. Much prefer to fight them there then here.
Ending foreign involvment won't do much to improve grade crossing safety. The money will get spent on more entitlements for those that do not deserve them. Spending for infrastructure won't include much for rail projects, it won't get them enough votes at election time.
And yes I do ramble on at times
BOB WITHORN "So the best policy for the US is to mind our own affairs at home. Rebuilding our infrastructure is something both parties generally agree on, but they will not cooperate to get it done." And when we are done hiding in our collective closets, we can put up big neon sign on the mexican border "Terrorist Enter Here - No checks - No charge - be sure to file for free healthcare - Have a nice day".
"So the best policy for the US is to mind our own affairs at home. Rebuilding our infrastructure is something both parties generally agree on, but they will not cooperate to get it done."
And when we are done hiding in our collective closets, we can put up big neon sign on the mexican border "Terrorist Enter Here - No checks - No charge - be sure to file for free healthcare - Have a nice day".
You may have reason to be hiding in your closet, but most folks go on about their daily lives rejecting paranoid propaganda about terrorists.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
You are trying to equate a loosely organized band of primitive zealots with an organized government.
Phoebe VetThat is what happens in the Middle East every time a US made missle or bomb goes off.
Thats what the extremists want us to think what happens but increasingly not so much. Even among a religious zealots, humans cannot be fooled long term about the impact of war. If it were otherwise the Ayotollah never would have made peace with Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. He knew though that after so many years, his population could not take the body count or deprivations of war much longer without a revolt which would threaten his survival.
[quote user="BOB WITHORN
[/quote]
It must be very stressful to live in constant fear. You stand a greater chance of being struck by lightning than being killed by a terrorist.
Do you remember 9/12/2001, when us military recruiters were overwhelmed by young men who wanted to join and go after the guys who did it? That is what happens in the Middle East every time a US made missle or bomb goes off.
That said, our economy is tightly intertwined with our military budget. If you suddenly reduced the military spend to the level where it should be, you would put thousands of people out of their high paying jobs and our economy would probably collapse.
North America had a fair share of wars, particularly in the 19th C. Latin America has been chronically unstable. The ME was actually pretty stable as part of the Ottoman Empire. So the best policy for the US is to mind our own affairs at home. Rebuilding our infrastructure is something both parties generally agree on, but they will not cooperate to get it done.
We're getting a bit off topic here. Europe wasn't always such an idyllic place either, for that matter.
I think it was Mark Twain who said humans are the only animals who blush --- or who need to.
Shameful behavior isn't geographically limited.
BaltACD schlimm FYI: Grade crossing accidents pose a danger to operating employees, passengers, freight and the general public, far beyond the victims at crossings. Unprovoked invasions of other nations to remove legitimate, recognized governments using false justifications tends to provoke reprisals and has created the mess we see in the ME today. Neither party here has been correct in their analysis. We have bipartisan SNAFUs. ME has been in flames since Biblical times and before; unabated to the present - with and without the help of Western 'powers'.
schlimm FYI: Grade crossing accidents pose a danger to operating employees, passengers, freight and the general public, far beyond the victims at crossings. Unprovoked invasions of other nations to remove legitimate, recognized governments using false justifications tends to provoke reprisals and has created the mess we see in the ME today. Neither party here has been correct in their analysis. We have bipartisan SNAFUs.
FYI: Grade crossing accidents pose a danger to operating employees, passengers, freight and the general public, far beyond the victims at crossings.
Unprovoked invasions of other nations to remove legitimate, recognized governments using false justifications tends to provoke reprisals and has created the mess we see in the ME today. Neither party here has been correct in their analysis. We have bipartisan SNAFUs.
ME has been in flames since Biblical times and before; unabated to the present - with and without the help of Western 'powers'.
The ME was far more stable than Europe for many centuries. Study some history if you disagree.
BaltACDME has been in flames since Biblical times and before; unabated to the present - with and without the help of Western 'powers'.
This is true but I have to say they have one hell of a railroad program on the shelf once they achieve peace. If you look at each independent country over there they have plans to all interconnect by rail and then connect to China via Pakistan and India. Afghanistan has probably the most ambtious rail construction plan, going from zero miles to close to 7-12,000. Thats pretty kick *** if you ask me.
schlimm dakotafred There's not the money to pay for them. Every one is a struggle. One more example, if it were needed, of how infrastructure in this country is starved in favor of spending for other priorities. Ending money-hole, pointless 'adventures' such as Iraq might be a start, as its total costs may reach $4-5 trillion. A fraction of that spent on infrastructure here could do far more for our security than foreign ops.
dakotafred There's not the money to pay for them. Every one is a struggle. One more example, if it were needed, of how infrastructure in this country is starved in favor of spending for other priorities.
Ending money-hole, pointless 'adventures' such as Iraq might be a start, as its total costs may reach $4-5 trillion. A fraction of that spent on infrastructure here could do far more for our security than foreign ops.
It wouldn't do a thing for your security, or mine. We (and, I presume, the other posters here) are smart enough to stay out of the way of moving trains.
Even a railroad built with total grade separation can't keep rubber-wheelers off the tracks. Original Shinkansen route, down in a cut, had a pickup drop in when the driver tried to find a fourth route at a T intersection. Fortunately it wasn't hit (the detectors worked) and was winched up and back on the road in rapid order.
As for not financing conflict 'over there,' I prefer that to financing it over here. Or do you really want to learn Arabic?
Chuck [MSgt(ret)]
Buslist I'm going to ignore the political stuff but ask a question similar to what I said on CNN 15 years ago. What if we spent the $ required for PTC to save an average of around 5 fatalaties a year and spent it on grade crossing improvements where over 400 lives are lost each year?
I'm going to ignore the political stuff but ask a question similar to what I said on CNN 15 years ago. What if we spent the $ required for PTC to save an average of around 5 fatalaties a year and spent it on grade crossing improvements where over 400 lives are lost each year?
Well as I said earlier I think you still have issues at below the State level with jurisdictional disputes on who owns the particular grade crossing in question and whom is responsible for maintaining it. Across the country I think we need to settle that first. Then make all counties and townships aware there is a grade crossing improvement program that in most cases will cost them almost nothing to get a crossings warning devices upgraded.
In majority of the cases the issue is NOT lack of money.
When I was in 'Technology' a couple of decades ago, all the 'techies' wanted to have their names associated with 'new development' - no matter how big a POS that new development was, rather than actually get assigned to a group that was assigned to making the last 'new development' that was a POS to actually work and do something for the company, which was viewed at drudgrey.
In the same vein PTC is 'new development', and crossing improvements and a host of other initiatives that are actually more productive are drudgery.
Differences in opinion are what makes a horse race and politics. Ignoring public opinion is the stuff of dictators and arrogant foolishness. The broad public is more correct than the advisors who thought Iraq would be a quick success. The basic premise was false. Even Rumsfeld acknowledges that.
schlimm Are we more secure now than before we invaded Iraq? No. We destabilized the region. Was spending $4-6 trillion a wise investment? Could it have been spent better here or saved? Most Americans say No and Yes.
Are we more secure now than before we invaded Iraq? No. We destabilized the region.
Was spending $4-6 trillion a wise investment? Could it have been spent better here or saved?
Most Americans say No and Yes.
Not really. We did not destabilize the region, it was unstable long before the 1970's. Additionally, we were not alone in wanting to see Mosedeq eliminated from Iran believe it or not the current regime in Iran (despite it's spin these days) wanted him gone as well. Read some of Kholmenis comments on that episode before it transpired and that he was leading a fundamentalist Islamic movement waaaayyyyyy back then. I believe either the King or one of the major Princes of Saudi Arabia was shot dead in 1975 because he opened the first TV station which went against the Islamic rules of display of graven images. Zoom forward to now and we have pictures of Bin Laden not only on TV but watching it as well..........THAT IS CHANGE. The timeline for change in the ME is a lot slower than it is in the United States but they are indeed changing. Sending close to 200,000 U.S. Troops into a country of what? 15-20 million is going to produce change as well......give it time. Foreign Policy is not like a light switch that can be flicked on for instant results. Sometimes there are setbacks, sometimes you deal with the wrong people. Ask the Haganah in Isreal up until 1938 they dealt directly with Adolph Eichman and even sat down and had tea with him to get more Jews to Palestine......Ooops, wrong guy. So we are not the only country having some setbacks here and there either.
Opinion polls are about immediate gratification not long-term foreign policy goals.
dakotafredYes, the Middle East has been expensive. But it needn't have been a loss, until the current administration.
Well off topic but....
I am a little more rosy about the world than schlimm is and I would say it is hard to say that the Middle East is a loss yet. I actually see a silver lining in a maniac group running around cutting peoples heads off. Once Arabs have their own mini holocaust they will be more likely to think twice before sponsoring that type of behavior in a third country. We might even see a boost in secularism finally in which the pace of societal change in the ME can be acclerated somewhat. If that happens and is the outcome......it would be worth $10 Trillion to me as a taxpayer.
Think of the increased trade and exports alone from this country to all those ME countries that were happy to live in the stone age with a Dictator. Now they will be able to import our Railroad Technology finally.
BTW, Iraq was doing pretty well before we pulled out. They had a webco satellite system in place and Iraqi railway trains were being dispatched from Cedar Rapids, IA at one point. They bought some second hand Czech locomotives and had contracts out for new Passenger Equipment and were going to expand both Passenger and Freight Service...........not sure what happened to all that.
Our Media was whining a lot about us missing out on the first round of bidding by the Oil Companies and it turns out they were being coy and waiting for those contracts to fall apart and bid at lower prices after they did. We also have done pretty decently with increasing our civilian exports to Iraq, in my humble opinion.....considering the country is still largely at war.
schlimm The answers are not difficult. Stop acting as the world's policeman. It makes us less secure and costs trillions (Iraq alone =$4-6 trillion over time). End the subsidies to carbon producers.
The answers are not difficult. Stop acting as the world's policeman. It makes us less secure and costs trillions (Iraq alone =$4-6 trillion over time). End the subsidies to carbon producers.
Another example of this issue. Read down through these guidlines and you can infer that in the past in Wisconsin, some roadway projects would specifically exclude railroad crossings. Again in my opinion, the entity doing the road project does not want to accept railroad crossing maintenece for the road in perpetuity or get sued if there is a grade crossing accident. They want the railroad to do it all and accept all liability.
http://www.co.portage.wi.us/planningzoning/7%20-%20Rail%20Coordination%20Local%20Program.pdf
schlimm The answers are not difficult. Stop acting as the world's policeman. It makes us less secure and costs trillions (Iraq alone =$4-6 trillion over time). End the subsidies to carbon producers. The IMF estimates the world total for 2015 will be $5.3 trillion. Focus on broad infrastructure, the essential foundation for future economic strength. But the political will is lacking
The answers are not difficult. Stop acting as the world's policeman. It makes us less secure and costs trillions (Iraq alone =$4-6 trillion over time). End the subsidies to carbon producers. The IMF estimates the world total for 2015 will be $5.3 trillion. Focus on broad infrastructure, the essential foundation for future economic strength. But the political will is lacking
OK so your barking up the wrong tree here on this issue. It is not lack of money or political will, at least not in Wisconsin and I would venture to bet that is the case across the country. It's lack of a legal entity taking responsibility for specific crossing maintenence (and no it does not default to the rail line). It depends on when the crossing was constructed and who constructed it.
A long time ago I was a school bus driver for a Summer in Wisconsin and tried to get some C&NW crossbucks upgraded to gates and flashers. Guess what? Problem is not money, problem is trying to get a legal entity to take ownership of the RR Crossing itself. Railroad said it was a County issue as the County owned the road according to them. County said the road was recently privately owned and constructed by a developer and they were not sure who was in charge of the crossing. This BS is happening in just about every state in the Union.
This country has a railroad crossing improvement program in most states and most notably in Wisconsin and it has never run out of money and it is still flush with money in Wisconsin at least BUT there are still crossbucks at various RR Crossings that Amtrak zooms across. The issue is MORE who wants to take ownership for the crossing and what legal entity to approach. Fix that problem and you will go a long ways to fixing grade crossings across the country.
Having said that check out the grade crossing quality variance in this WSOR video on the line to Monroe, WI which might see on a lucky day maybe 2-3 trains a day. Look at the Heavy Duty Crossing at time mark 1:25. Notice it is a fairly recent boulevard and there is probably no question who owns maintenence of the RR crossing. Note the other two crossings before it. Two lane roads, the one with flashers........jurisdiction over the crossing is probably clear. The one with crossbucks it is probably a private road that was converted to public use and no agreement yet on who maintains the crossing (and no it does not default to the RR). So, in my opinion that right there is the main issue. You can see it vividly in the video below. County Highways can apply for state funds to upgrade the railroad crossings BUT do they want to assume the liability and do they own the road outright? Was the road constructed by the County or a private developer?
Notice on the boulevard which I would guess is a State Highway.....there is no question about protection of the railroad tracks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnzjJQP7s38
FWIW: When I was a kid this Milwaukee Branch could not rate more than a GP9 or MP15AC and then it would crawl along all the way through the weeds into Monroe, WI and not exceed more than 10-20 mph and most of the line was crossbucks with some flashers in between. So WSOR has done a good job with state money upgrading the line.
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