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another AAF update

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Posted by Alan F on Tuesday, September 2, 2014 12:00 AM

Dragoman

Perhaps you are only referring to the low-floor Talgo design.  But aren't the Florida stations low-platform designs?  (Since Sunset Superliners were able to use them, I assumed so.)  But that would only make the step up that much easier.

All Aboard Florida is building new stations with high level platforms. According to the Environmental Assessment that was published several years ago, the West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale stations are to have 800 foot long platforms, the Miami terminal 1000 ft long.
So AAF will not be buying the ex-Wisconsin Talgos. Period. Besides, even if the WI Talgos were compatible with high level platforms, what would AAF do with only 2 trainsets in a unique configuration when they plan to run trains hourly? They need a proper fleet, not 2 orphaned trainsets.
The new corridor bi-level cars being built by Nippon-Sharyo are not an option for AAF either. Besides the low platform height, Nippon-Sharyo will be busy building 175 cars for the Midwest and CA through 2018. 
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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, September 1, 2014 7:27 PM

CMStPnP
Also, SE Florida is primarily a NYC and Northeast US Demographic.........another reason why they are probably not going to step down to a Talgo trainset from what they are already used to.

I've found the Cascades Talgos to be smoother riding than Amfleet cars, with far larger windows.

In other threads about the Wisconsin Talgos, you have consistently shown your dislike for Talgos. Can you explain your opposition?

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, September 1, 2014 7:26 PM

I ride Talgos pretty often, and find that they ride just as smoothly as conventional passenger cars, just differently. They do have a problem with jointed rail and switches, due to having one wheel per car, but do not sway in crossovers like conventional cars.

Actually, I see Talgo being a good option, as they are already designed, whereas other high speed trainsets are designed as EMUs or have electric power cars. Isn't FEC planning to use a high speed diesel like the F125?

Viewliners are also another good option, but with clearance problems absent, FEC may add on to the Midwest bilevel car order?

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, September 1, 2014 4:58 PM

Although it is very unlikely due to time constraints wouldn't it be interesting if AAF bought View liner-2s ?  It might be that AAF can order some if Amtrak does not exercise its 70 car option now but an AAF order might enable Amtrak to extend the 70 car option to later ?   Might give us some V-2 coaches and business class  cars ?

Since the Amtrak V-2s will be serviced at Hialeah if AAF put a maintenance facility close by there would be a lot of parts combinability close by. ?

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Posted by Dragoman on Monday, September 1, 2014 4:54 PM

CMStPnP

Also, SE Florida is primarily a NYC and Northeast US Demographic.........another reason why they are probably not going to step down to a Talgo trainset from what they are already used to.

"Step down to a Talgo trainset"??  "Step down" because of the higher customer satisfaction ratings the Cascades have been getting, compared to Northeast Regional services?  Or "step down" because Talgos are built by a Spanish company?  Of course, in that case, they probably won't like the new Viewliners either, built by CAF (yes, a Spanish company).

Perhaps you are only referring to the low-floor Talgo design.  But aren't the Florida stations low-platform designs?  (Since Sunset Superliners were able to use them, I assumed so.)  But that would only make the step up that much easier.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, September 1, 2014 3:40 PM

Also, SE Florida is primarily a NYC and Northeast US Demographic.........another reason why they are probably not going to step down to a Talgo trainset from what they are already used to.

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Posted by Dragoman on Monday, September 1, 2014 12:59 PM

schlimm

Anything built for semi-high speed will be a European design, even if assembled here.  We no longer have "a LONG proven track record" in the field of passenger rail.  

European (even Bombardier, a Canadian-based company, has its rail division HQ and major operations in Germany), or Asian (Japan  or Korea).

Unlike the locomotive industry, the only passenger rail manufacturer that could be considered truly American MIGHT be US Railcar, the successors to Rader/Colorado Railcar.  And even they don't appear to have any actual manufacturing capability, only the designs, patents, etc.

Now if Budd were still around ...

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Posted by D.Carleton on Monday, September 1, 2014 12:10 PM

schlimm

CMStPnP
Private railroads go for a LONG proven track record and standardization with other rolling stock both to save on spare parts costs and maintenence.    Talgo has neither.     Pretty sure the Liability Insurance on a Talgo would be higher than a similarly built passenger trainset built to U.S. Railway standards or even a HSR European trainset built in Germany or France.

Anything built for semi-high speed will be a European design, even if assembled here.  We no longer have "a LONG proven track record" in the field of passenger rail.   That said, I wouldn't select Talgo either.  The FEC route is pretty straight (?) and handling curves are Talgo's main strength.

 

Talgo stock has been in service on the route of the Cascades for twenty years. How much longer of a track record do you want? Furthermore, after finishing a job in the area last week, I rode the older sets (Series VI) on a roundtrip between Portland and Seattle and found the cars to be much quieter than anything I am charged to maintain.

That said, unless something has drastically changed in the last 12 months, Talgo will not be a player in the All Aboard Florida deal. As a Central Florida resident I would have welcomed Talgo in service here but it's not my railroad.

Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, September 1, 2014 11:40 AM

CMStPnP
Private railroads go for a LONG proven track record and standardization with other rolling stock both to save on spare parts costs and maintenence.    Talgo has neither.     Pretty sure the Liability Insurance on a Talgo would be higher than a similarly built passenger trainset built to U.S. Railway standards or even a HSR European trainset built in Germany or France.

Anything built for semi-high speed will be a European design, even if assembled here.  We no longer have "a LONG proven track record" in the field of passenger rail.   That said, I wouldn't select Talgo either.  The FEC route is pretty straight (?) and handling curves are Talgo's main strength.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, September 1, 2014 11:04 AM

PNWRMNM

I rode a Talgo train between Portland and Seattle once. It gave a less stable ride than a conventional train and was much noisier. I would not purchase it for my railroad.

Mac

So I take it you would not buy a Fiat 500 for railroad crew transport or as a Hi rail vehicle......why not?  It's built to U.S. Specifications?   <sarcasm off>

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Posted by PNWRMNM on Monday, September 1, 2014 8:11 AM

I rode a Talgo train between Portland and Seattle once. It gave a less stable ride than a conventional train and was much noisier. I would not purchase it for my railroad.

Mac

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, September 1, 2014 7:57 AM

Dragoman

[So, what is the problem?

FRA compliance means El-Zippo if exceptions and waivers are granted.

Private railroads go for a LONG proven track record and standardization with other rolling stock both to save on spare parts costs and maintenence.    Talgo has neither.     Pretty sure the Liability Insurance on a Talgo would be higher than a similarly built passenger trainset built to U.S. Railway standards or even a HSR European trainset built in Germany or France.

Amtrak and public transit systems do not necessarily have to factor the above in because they are largely backed by a government entity.    FEC has only bondholders and shareholders to support it financially.    I am thinking that FEC is going to go with a U.S. Builder vs overseas company and i would be really shocked if they settled on ANYTHING built in Spain.    That really would be betting the farm, if they did.

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Posted by Dragoman on Sunday, August 31, 2014 2:50 PM

CMStPnP

I would be really surprised if FEC spent all this money on advertising and infrastructure and then risked it all on a Talgo trainset.   Far more likely they have found a builder in the U.S. and signed them to strict confidentiality.     Talgo is probably going to be restricted to government subsidized operations vs. private ones.    Easier to sell Talgo to politicians that do not know any better than it is to private operators.

Why is TALGO such a "risk"?? 

Besides more than 60 years of very successful operations in Spain and other European countries, Talgo trainsets have been in service on the Amtrak Cascades for some 20 years now.  They have been some of the most popular -- and most reliable -- equipment operated in North America

And the newest Wisconsin-built Series 8 models are FRA-compliant -- and available now.

So, history and experience say that Talgo is much less of a risk than some never-before-used-in-North-America equipment, which may or may not even have even been designed yet.

So, what is the problem?

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Posted by CMStPnP on Saturday, August 30, 2014 3:15 PM

I would be really surprised if FEC spent all this money on advertising and infrastructure and then risked it all on a Talgo trainset.   Far more likely they have found a builder in the U.S. and signed them to strict confidentiality.     Talgo is probably going to be restricted to government subsidized operations vs. private ones.    Easier to sell Talgo to politicians that do not know any better than it is to private operators.

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another AAF update
Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:52 PM

AAF announces a rolling stock pick but gives no details.  Some speculation that it could be the Talgos at Beech Grove. However this poster wonders if that is even a possibility ?   2 train sets of Talgos would not be enough as well ?  As well the following link notes 35,000 feet of rail laid out.  Probably for the double track ?

AAF certainly know how to keep in the public eye ?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/08/25/4308932/work-begins-finally-on-miami-to.html

 

 

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